isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

andrew.fletcher · 02-21-08, 04:49 PM

I've been trying over the last few weeks and everytime I try to download it times out as it slows to about 5kps. Can I send someone a few bucks to have you send me a CD with the FSM??

Also, is Tom's Isuzu in Santa Ana the recommended place to get parts? I just need the bellhousing bolts, manual flywheel and valve cover bolts.

Dougal · 02-21-08, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

I've been trying over the last few weeks and everytime I try to download it times out as it slows to about 5kps. Can I send someone a few bucks to have you send me a CD with the FSM??

Also, is Tom's Isuzu in Santa Ana the recommended place to get parts? I just need the bellhousing bolts, manual flywheel and valve cover bolts.

Are you using a download manager? They can often get around such problems and there are plenty of good free ones.

hayes167 · 02-22-08, 10:10 AM

Are there differences between a gasser 700r4 and one that was stock behind a diesel?
I am looking to get a rebuilt one and want to know exactly what I need to ask for. Right now I'm thinking I need one built heavy duty/towing to put behind my 4bd1t. Does it need anything else to function properly behind a deisel?

rtarh2o · 02-22-08, 11:12 AM

I had a 700R4 rebuilt for my 6.2 conversion. I found an experienced rebuilder and told them what I was doing. I am pretty sure they used the heavy duty kit and also installed the hydraulic lock-out. As far as shift points, from what I have learned in the last couple days, you can adjust those with the TV cable and some springs that adjust the pressure. I am about to drive mine for the first time this afternoon so maybe I can tell you more then. Rusty

coog · 02-22-08, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayes167

Are there differences between a gasser 700r4 and one that was stock behind a diesel?
I am looking to get a rebuilt one and want to know exactly what I need to ask for. Right now I'm thinking I need one built heavy duty/towing to put behind my 4bd1t. Does it need anything else to function properly behind a deisel?

Make sure that you spec a low stall torque converter; the power from the diesel comes on right away,as opposed to the gasser that needs some revs to make its' power.

jb BJ73 · 02-24-08, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal

If you could find the factory power/torque curves for the 4BD1T/4BD2T it'd be handy.
I have the non turbo 4BD1 curves but haven't been able to find the turbo ones.

should be able to do that. we've got the sales spec sheets back to about the mid 80's or so on computer as .pdf files so i'll see if i can post em from work.

andrew.fletcher · 02-24-08, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal

Are you using a download manager? They can often get around such problems and there are plenty of good free ones.

astr is hooking me up, thanks for the idea though. I'll have to look into that for the long term though.

jb BJ73 · 02-26-08, 03:15 AM

heres the spec sheet for the 4BD1-T.

coog · 02-26-08, 07:11 AM

Would any of our friends in Oz be interested in sending the needed bits to convert my NPR to 4x4??? I just don't understand why we can't get them in the States,

gifu · 02-29-08, 01:12 PM

just a quick sanity check for Hayes 167 and Oregon 80... when/if you decide to get a 700R4 built, call advance adapters first... some of their adapter kits (ie: 700R4->Fj60 splitcase) require a special shaft. Would be a shame to build a new transmission, then need to have it rebuilt with the correct shaft.

iroc86 · 02-29-08, 07:43 PM

I spoke with Isuzu a few weeks ago and was able to obtain a dyno chart for the U.S. version of the 4BD2-TC. I've attached a copy below. It's also in my Jeep build-up thread on Pirate4x4: Build-up: Jeep YJ w/ Isuzu diesel.

Between IH8MUD, 4btswaps.com, and Pirate, there's too many Isuzu diesel threads to keep track of!

Dougal · 02-29-08, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iroc86

I spoke with Isuzu a few weeks ago and was able to obtain a dyno chart for the U.S. version of the 4BD2-TC. I've attached a copy below. It's also in my Jeep build-up thread on Pirate4x4: Build-up: Jeep YJ w/ Isuzu diesel.

Between IH8MUD, 4btswaps.com, and Pirate, there's too many Isuzu diesel threads to keep track of!

Hey thanks, that's really interesting.
The torque curve is much flatter in the top half and the fuel consumption curve shows about 5% higher fuel consumption than the 4BD1.

iroc86 · 02-29-08, 07:58 PM

Here's where it gets really interesting... a comparison between the 4BD2-TC and the Cummins 4BT. I interpolated the data from both official dyno charts and made a new one. The Isuzu clearly has the advantage after 2000 rpm.

Dougal · 02-29-08, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iroc86

Here's where it gets really interesting... a comparison between the 4BD2-TC and the Cummins 4BT. I interpolated the data from both official dyno charts and made a new one. The Isuzu clearly has the advantage after 2000 rpm.

And more is just a few turns away.
I've got around 500Nm, that's about 370 ft-lbs.

Running 20psi boost with no intercooler.

iroc86 · 02-29-08, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal

And more is just a few turns away.
I've got around 500Nm, that's about 370 ft-lbs.

Running 20psi boost with no intercooler.

When I get mine running, we definitely need to talk.

ozwallaby · 03-01-08, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal

And more is just a few turns away.
I've got around 500Nm, that's about 370 ft-lbs.

Running 20psi boost with no intercooler.

20lbs and no i/c.....do you hate this motor Doog..... or is this all part of your finite stress analysis....

Dougal · 03-01-08, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozwallaby

20lbs and no i/c.....do you hate this motor Doog..... or is this all part of your finite stress analysis....

I'm testing it.

I plan some even harsher tests in the future. If no-one tests the limits then we won't ever know where they are.

Plenty of people running Cummins 4BT's with up to 35psi boost and stock internals, I expect the Isuzu to take similar abuse.

andrew.fletcher · 03-03-08, 10:34 AM

Is anyone running A/C on theirs yet? I'm wondering space wise if it will fit in the stock location or if it's going to butt up against the frame. I haven't seen an engine with A/C hooked up to it but it looks like it sticks out as far if not a little farther than the starter.

Also, the shop that's putting this all together for me found an Isuzu starter that is actually turned up snug against the engine so you don't have to off-set the engine.

Dougal · 03-03-08, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

Is anyone running A/C on theirs yet? I'm wondering space wise if it will fit in the stock location or if it's going to butt up against the frame. I haven't seen an engine with A/C hooked up to it but it looks like it sticks out as far if not a little farther than the starter.

Also, the shop that's putting this all together for me found an Isuzu starter that is actually turned up snug against the engine so you don't have to off-set the engine.

I have that other Isuzu starter on my engine. The downside is it draws a lot more current than the geared version, so make sure your starting system can handle it. Mine draws around 300 amps peak on 24v.

I'm running the stock Isuzu AC compressor, I think I have a modified tensioner bracket which tucks it in a little closer (protrudes less than the starter) but it still uses the same factory mount as the alternator.

andrew.fletcher · 03-03-08, 01:01 PM

There's always a downside, I'll have to look into how to overcome that. I'm pretty dense when it comes to electrical. Is it just a matter of bigger battery, thicker wires and stronger starter relay?
Does your AC compressor protrude less than the OEM starter or the "other" starter? Can you post or send me a picture of your tensioner bracket? I have no brackets right now so I want to make sure I get the right ones.

Dougal · 03-03-08, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

There's always a downside, I'll have to look into how to overcome that. I'm pretty dense when it comes to electrical. Is it just a matter of bigger battery, thicker wires and stronger starter relay?
Does your AC compressor protrude less than the OEM starter or the "other" starter? Can you post or send me a picture of your tensioner bracket? I have no brackets right now so I want to make sure I get the right ones.

This is the best I can do for a photo right now.
The AC compressor is just visible underneath the alternator, it actually sits just above the chassis rail in my truck. I guess it protrudes as much as the original starter.

RHINO · 03-03-08, 03:16 PM

andrew the AC in stock locale wont fit, it will need to be raised or otherwise relocated. i want the GR starter and offsetting the engine was not a problem, the stock cruiser engine is offset to the D side and now i'm offset the same amount to the P side.

IROC i was reading some of your other posts on other forums, nice build.... i dont understand the oilpan on the 2 series engine, i havent had one apart so there must be a reason its like that. i dont think though that it would pose any issues, looking at mine with P side diff i think it would still clear, i have the engine forward off the firewall some and SOA,, but if the engine were all the way back as it looks like your doing i think it will be completely behind the front axle,, no??

andrew.fletcher · 03-03-08, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHINO

andrew the AC in stock locale wont fit, it will need to be raised or otherwise relocated. i want the GR starter and offsetting the engine was not a problem, the stock cruiser engine is offset to the D side and now i'm offset the same amount to the P side.

Do you think modifying in the existing location will work, ie. like Dougal's modified bracket. I guess it depends on how far it will bring it in. If I remember right, you said you have about 20mm each side with the stock starter so there isn't much room left to move it over any more to accomodate. That and I don't think there is any room on the other side to mount any components.

iroc86 · 03-03-08, 05:43 PM

Thanks for checking out my Jeep build, RHINO. The only reason I can think of for the 4BD2's unusual oil pan is capacity. That bulge is big enough to hold about two extra quarts of oil. Maybe the Isuzu engineers found that extra oil capacity and a big, single filter was better than the 4BD1's setup? When I get my motor mounts done, I'll pull the pan and let you guys know what it's like in there.

I'm also going SOA with my Jeep, but I'm keeping the lift fairly mild to lower the center of gravity. Because of this, I have the engine mounted low --- it's probably about five inches below the hood line. That's why I'm afraid the driveshaft won't fit without oil pan modifications.

Andrew, I'm not sure if this picture will answer your A/C question, but it's worth a shot. This is the compressor location on the 4BD2 between my Jeep's frame rails. The engine is not offset to any side and the rail centerlines are 31" apart. I've never actually seen an A/C compressor for these engines, so I don't know how big it is. It almost looks like a Harrison R4 would fit.

astr · 03-04-08, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

....Also, the shop that's putting this all together for me found an Isuzu starter that is actually turned up snug against the engine so you don't have to off-set the engine.

How about posting a picture of this starter. I've only seen the one starter that is geared and is quite wide.

RHINO · 03-04-08, 04:29 PM

andrew, the compressor gets into the frame about 20mm or so,,, this is with clearance for the GR starter, so you'll be into it more if you do go with that cough crap cough non GR starter

. so yeah raising it will work, i have been thinking of a mount to hold the alt and a/c in one and raise them both, plenty of room to go up.

IROC, the comp is a nippondenso radial, just like a harison, delco ect. my SOA is low also, i put the engine in the frame so the oilpan gasket is about level with the top of the frame, and its still a good 3" below the hood.
if that bump is capacity then by all means chop it off if you need clearance!!! the pan holds 7 or 9 qts, thats plenty of oil for an engine that doesnt run real hot and has an internal oil cooler.

also my engine isnt offset per say, the starter and oil filters are centered in the frame which sets the engine to favor the P side a little. most straight engines favored one side or the other, no biggie

Dougal · 03-04-08, 05:20 PM

Here's the direct drive starter. Not a photo though.
I think it's a hitachi item.

dieselcruiserhead · 03-05-08, 05:51 PM

very cool images Dougal!

Dougal · 03-05-08, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead

very cool images Dougal!

Cheers Dre.

Cruiser Jimmy · 03-07-08, 12:49 PM

I've been lurking around this thread for sometime now taking in all the info.
I did some calculations for a cost benefit analysis, and from what I've taken in from the 4BD is the way to go. My 80 with a 3FE is getting around 10 mpg (i know it should be getting better) and the Isuzu can get around 32mpg. See below.
Comparing the installation cost with the improved mpg will determine when you start actually seeing the improvement from the petro cost difference.