isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

[ozwick]

Is the 4bd1t considered a light duty or a medium duty diesel engine? I would like to put one in my 90 FJ62 in California.

Thanks

[jb BJ73]

hey fellas been looking at this forum for a while now and iv'e only just registered, thought i'd let you know i'm doing an apprenticeship at an isuzu dealership here in oz so if you need any help with stuff out of workshop manuals i'd be more than happy to help, been some pretty sweet work done here to get these motors into cruisers.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by ozwick

Is the 4bd1t considered a light duty or a medium duty diesel engine? I would like to put one in my 90 FJ62 in California.

Thanks

How do you define light or medium duty?
It's factory fitted to trucks with a 6 ton gross weight and was fitted to the Australian army landrovers with excellent results. They can't kill them.

[ozwick]

Dougal,

I am looking at the legality of the specific engine class of the Isuzu. IF, it was offered in the US as a light duty diesel then it should be in the same duty class as the 6.2 and 6.5? This would be in the same weight class. I don't want to put out a lot of money and possibly get caught in 2010 if CA starts to perform checks and or requires additional catalytic converters and any other equipment.

On a side note, I have a friend who is a diesel mechanic that repairs the garbage trucks at one of the cities in our area. He said that they were required to install and have been installing catalytic converters for some time now. The problem they are having is that the cat converters load up due to the slow speeds of the garbage trucks. They are constantly having to remove the cats to clean them.

[lynchmob]

Originally Posted by ozwick

Is the 4bd1t considered a light duty or a medium duty diesel engine? I would like to put one in my 90 FJ62 in California.

Thanks

I dont think this engine was ever in anything lighter than the NPR or GM branded equivalent - in the US anyway

Probably falls into the medium or heavy duty class just like the 4BT

[hayes167]

I have been reading the forums for awhile now and wanting to do a TLC diesel swap for sometime now. I have acquired a '91 FJ80 with a non running engine and a '88 NPR truck that is running with 190k on the clock. I am excited to start my swap. I plan to pull the 3fe engine this weekend. Dosen't someone on this forum have an 80 with a 4bd in it?

[88tlc]

Injection pump from the 4bd1T. Diesel Kiki, now serviced by all Bosch service mechanics. I removed mine, and had it rebuilt, and in the process learned more about these devices that I would pass along.
The front has the gear that drives off the idler gear, and crank, the very front is a centrifugal mechanical device that advances timing with rpm. the middle section hold the Barrels and Plungers that provide the pressure and meter flow, the rear portion holds the Governor. the very rear sticking off the back end is an aneroid, or some altimeter compensator. The levers and cams - the cam on the governor housing is the fuel screw, the top is the fuel shutoff lever, in the back this throttle lever. the cable looping around to the back side is an enrichment crank. Lower front is the lift pump, with a hand pump for emergent priming of the system. the dark cast flange holds the IP onto the engine, and 4 bolts that holds IP to the cast flange can be loosened, and adjust timing if necessary.


I took the IP pump in because of lack of power. The mechanic found signs of wear in the barrels and plungers and replaced all four. rebuild cost was like $700. Regarding the Aneroid, i was told by the IP mechanic that I needed to add boost pressure to the back of this, and would get like 30% more power. it seems that the aneroid is used to meter fuel flow, depending on the boost that is present.

A $2 dollar piece of hose, instead of a IP rebuild? could it be that simple of a fix to get more horsepower?

has anyone seen this before? the manual does not mention this device, or needing to add boost pressure. the engine when I got it, did not have this hooked up to boost, and there is no boost pressure port anywhere?

I have added a port for a boost gage, and was thinking of Teeing into this boost line for the boost to this aneroid.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

I took the IP pump in because of lack of power. The mechanic found signs of wear in the barrels and plungers and replaced all four. rebuild cost was like $700. Regarding the Aneroid, i was told by the IP mechanic that I needed to add boost pressure to the back of this, and would get like 30% more power. it seems that the aneroid is used to meter fuel flow, depending on the boost that is present.

A $2 dollar piece of hose, instead of a IP rebuild? could it be that simple of a fix to get more horsepower?

That isn't an aneroid, it's an altitude compensator. They are quite different devices but they work in the same way (reduce fuelling below the max available).

Removing the pushrod from inside the altitude compensator will disable it, allowing full fuel flow. But before you attempt any fueling mods on a diesel, you should have an EGT gauge fitted pre-turbo.
Otherwise the risk of a meltdown is a very real one.

Diesel-kiki is the japanese subsidary of Bosch, now called Zexel. It's a standard Bosch Type A pump.

[hayes167]

4bd1t into '91 fj80 I need some help figuring the xcase linkage out. On a '91 3fe the linkage housing/pivot point for the xcase is mounted on top of the transmission. Any ideas if I can mount it on top of the 4l60 or 700r4 I will be using. The linkage housing seems like it will unbolt from the toyota trans and I guess it will be a matter of fabricating a way to mount it on the chevy trans. Any ideas?

[rtarh2o]

When you buy the transfer case adapter for the 700r4/4l60 from Mark's 4WD they send you a bracket to mount the shifter/linkage. It is a pretty good set-up. Mine didn't line up exactly with the hole in the transmission tunnel but it wasn't too difficult to modify, it was probably my fault, just another thing I didn't consider when I did the test fitting!
Rusty

[dieselcruiserhead]

It is possible that it uses a boost pressure addition. This is how the VE pumps are set up. This boost hose goes from the head to the injection pump on a 4BT....

[bigbillyboy]

I've been lurking for a long time. I have a mercedes turbo diesel, with the bosch in line injection pump, and there is DEFINATELY a small (1/8") piece of tubing that runs to the top of the IP. The NA 300d i owned previously had the altitude compensator, and it looked similar. If your IP is off of a turbo, it will absolutely have to have some sort of pressure line from the manifold to the IP that will add fuel as boost increases. If yours was missing, it'd be almost like running a NA engine.

That thing looks phenominal. Great Work. I can't wait to hear how it drives!

Videos?

Originally Posted by Dougal

That isn't an aneroid, it's an altitude compensator. They are quite different devices but they work in the same way (reduce fuelling below the max available).

Removing the pushrod from inside the altitude compensator will disable it, allowing full fuel flow. But before you attempt any fueling mods on a diesel, you should have an EGT gauge fitted pre-turbo.
Otherwise the risk of a meltdown is a very real one.

Diesel-kiki is the japanese subsidary of Bosch, now called Zexel. It's a standard Bosch Type A pump.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by bigbillyboy

If your IP is off of a turbo, it will absolutely have to have some sort of pressure line from the manifold to the IP that will add fuel as boost increases. If yours was missing, it'd be almost like running a NA engine.

The aneroid fitted to the Isuzu 4BD1 type A pumps looks nothing like that. I know because my Isuzu 4BD1T has the aneroid. The fueling on the pumps without an aneroid is probably controlled on an RPM basis, there is no boost line involved.

If you add pressure to the back of that aircan, it will shut off most of the rack travel which will shut off most of your fuel and power.

I can provid pictures from inside the governors on my two injector pumps if anyone would like. One has an aneroid, the other doesn't.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by Dougal

The aneroid fitted to the Isuzu 4BD1 type A pumps looks nothing like that. I know because my Isuzu 4BD1T has the aneroid. The fueling on the pumps without an aneroid is probably controlled on an RPM basis, there is no boost line involved.

If you add pressure to the back of that aircan, it will shut off most of the rack travel which will shut off most of your fuel and power.

I can provid pictures from inside the governors on my two injector pumps if anyone would like. One has an aneroid, the other doesn't.

Thanks dougal for the information and others. I have rechecked with my IP mechanic, Wally, and he confirms it needs boost pressure. here are some of his thoughts, that sound reasonable to me.

Altitude compensators - are only on naturally aspirated motors. this makes sense to me, as if there is less oxygen, it needs less fuel. this can be accomplished by reducing fuel, when reduced barometric pressure is measured (which by the way is the definition of a ANEROID - measures pressure, barometric pressure, without liquid).

Aneroid - this is for Turbo engines, and will compensate fuel delivery to match oxygen, and boost pressure. If the IP does not see the boost pressure, it will meter less fuel. when the IP sees boost pressure, it adds more fuel. the IP and turbo are synched up so to speak, providing power, not providing insane amounts of black smoke. Also note, that a Turbo engine, with boost, is not as affected by altitude, and 'thin air' , as it is getting compressed air.

I installed my IP pump, and I must say it was not an easy task. There has got to be a better way of getting the IP pump gear to stay put long enough for me to insert it back into the timing housing.

But finally I hooked it all up, and I added boost pressure to whatever it is on the back. I just added a Tee to my boost pressure from the intake, and to the boost gage.


I can report that it now runs with significantly more power. great acceleration, smooth power, there is no black smoke, but now feels like a turbo boosted engine, with fuel to match. I do not have EGT gage, but I use a hand held point and shoot temp gage, getting exhaust temps in the 440 range. I have yet to run it up the hill yet, concerned still with varying opinions on the matter, and not having EGT protection!

I would like others thoughts. it seems that a IP needs some sort of signal from boost.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

Thanks dougal for the information and others. I have rechecked with my IP mechanic, Wally, and he confirms it needs boost pressure. here are some of his thoughts, that sound reasonable to me.

Altitude compensators - are only on naturally aspirated motors. this makes sense to me, as if there is less oxygen, it needs less fuel. this can be accomplished by reducing fuel, when reduced barometric pressure is measured (which by the way is the definition of a ANEROID - measures pressure, barometric pressure, without liquid).

Aneroid - this is for Turbo engines, and will compensate fuel delivery to match oxygen, and boost pressure. If the IP does not see the boost pressure, it will meter less fuel. when the IP sees boost pressure, it adds more fuel. the IP and turbo are synched up so to speak, providing power, not providing insane amounts of black smoke. Also note, that a Turbo engine, with boost, is not as affected by altitude, and 'thin air' , as it is getting compressed air.

I installed my IP pump, and I must say it was not an easy task. There has got to be a better way of getting the IP pump gear to stay put long enough for me to insert it back into the timing housing.

But finally I hooked it all up, and I added boost pressure to whatever it is on the back. I just added a Tee to my boost pressure from the intake, and to the boost gage.


I can report that it now runs with significantly more power. great acceleration, smooth power, there is no black smoke, but now feels like a turbo boosted engine, with fuel to match. I do not have EGT gage, but I use a hand held point and shoot temp gage, getting exhaust temps in the 440 range. I have yet to run it up the hill yet, concerned still with varying opinions on the matter, and not having EGT protection!

I would like others thoughts. it seems that a IP needs some sort of signal from boost.

Your mechanic is mistaken.
If that was a factory aneroid, it would have a factory boost line from the manifold above down to it. The factory boost lines are roughly three times larger than a line which will fit the nipple on the back of that compensator.
I would expect that port with the nipple is for charging the device with a certain air pressure to set the working range.

Altitude compensators are needed on turbo engines which are run hard at altitude, most manufacturers even list how much engines should be derated at different heights.
My engine smokes a little at 1000m but not at sealevel.


I have not yet seen a 4BD1T with this device attached to manifold pressure. Does that tell you anything?
Here's a photo from Overview



My guess is by opening the device to boost pressure you have vented it which allows it to deliver more fuel before the turbo wakes up. But as the boost builds this will reduce rack travel as evidenced by your 440 deg EGT. That's very cold, these engines run up to 750 deg preturbo.

BTW the purpose of an aneroid is not to increase fuel on boost, it is to decrease fuel off-boost to prevent smoke. They are a pollution control device.
It does this by a pushrod that limits internal rack travel.
I have mentioned earlier that simply removing the device from the injection pump will allow it to deliver full fuel for tuning purposes.

[ozwallaby]

Maybe the wrong foto Dougal....

[astr]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

Thanks dougal for the information and others. I have rechecked with my IP mechanic, Wally, and he confirms it needs boost pressure. here are some of his thoughts, that sound reasonable to me.

Altitude compensators - are only on naturally aspirated motors. this makes sense to me, as if there is less oxygen, it needs less fuel. this can be accomplished by reducing fuel, when reduced barometric pressure is measured (which by the way is the definition of a ANEROID - measures pressure, barometric pressure, without liquid).

Aneroid - this is for Turbo engines, and will compensate fuel delivery to match oxygen, and boost pressure. If the IP does not see the boost pressure, it will meter less fuel. when the IP sees boost pressure, it adds more fuel. the IP and turbo are synched up so to speak, providing power, not providing insane amounts of black smoke. Also note, that a Turbo engine, with boost, is not as affected by altitude, and 'thin air' , as it is getting compressed air.

I installed my IP pump, and I must say it was not an easy task. There has got to be a better way of getting the IP pump gear to stay put long enough for me to insert it back into the timing housing.

But finally I hooked it all up, and I added boost pressure to whatever it is on the back. I just added a Tee to my boost pressure from the intake, and to the boost gage.


I can report that it now runs with significantly more power. great acceleration, smooth power, there is no black smoke, but now feels like a turbo boosted engine, with fuel to match. I do not have EGT gage, but I use a hand held point and shoot temp gage, getting exhaust temps in the 440 range. I have yet to run it up the hill yet, concerned still with varying opinions on the matter, and not having EGT protection!

I would like others thoughts. it seems that a IP needs some sort of signal from boost.

It this the place (the nipple labeled "Port") on the IP that you connected the boost pressure?

[88tlc]

that is the port that i added boost to.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by ozwallaby

Maybe the wrong foto Dougal....

Photo is correct, you might need to scroll across to see the altitude compensator, depending on your screen size.

Adding boost pressure to that port is going to reduce fueling on boost.
All the different devices which can be added to the back of an A type pump work by pushing or pulling on one pin.
When that pin is pushed in, it reduces rack travel and reduces max fuel delivery.
When that pin is released, it allows full fuel delivery.

The real aneroid (which my engine has) is set off to the side of the governor housing and it's housing includes a rocker. This rocker is used to release the pin when boost pressure is added to the can.

As you can see the altitude compensator is directly inline with this pin, so adding pressure to the port on the back will push the pin into the housing, restricting rack travel and reducing fuel delivery.
If you want it to deliver full fuel on boost then you need to hook a boost line up to the other side of the can.
But such an endeavour is pointless as when set correctly, your altitude compensator won't be restricting fuelling unless at very high altitude.

[hayes167]

I am trying to locate a transmission for my swap. I talked to a local trans shop and he quoted me $1450 for a built 700r4 diesel specific with hardened case no core. I was hoping to find a trans for around $1000 as I dont want my costs to skyrocket. Anyone have any leads in the US? I just found a place on the net tomsrivertransmissions.com out of New Jersey and he quoted me $1250 for a 700r4 HD no core. If I can't get one for a thousand I may just support my local shop.

[dieselcruiserhead]

It is perfectly possible the injector pumps are speced differently in different continents. Interestingly enough our friend witha BJ42 has a nearly identical device on his injection pump, did the same thing, and it is a night and day difference, all of a sudden the Land Cruiser has power at boost

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead

It is perfectly possible the injector pumps are speced differently in different continents. Interestingly enough our friend witha BJ42 has a nearly identical device on his injection pump, did the same thing, and it is a night and day difference, all of a sudden the Land Cruiser has power at boost

The governors on the 3B are quite different. The engine itself is throttled and the governor is pneumatic, sensing the pressure difference across the throttle.
They weren't a factory turbo engine, but putting boost to the correct side of the diaphragm will certainly help.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by Dougal

Photo is correct, you might need to scroll across to see the altitude compensator, depending on your screen size.

Adding boost pressure to that port is going to reduce fueling on boost.
All the different devices which can be added to the back of an A type pump work by pushing or pulling on one pin.
When that pin is pushed in, it reduces rack travel and reduces max fuel delivery.
When that pin is released, it allows full fuel delivery.

The real aneroid (which my engine has) is set off to the side of the governor housing and it's housing includes a rocker. This rocker is used to release the pin when boost pressure is added to the can.

As you can see the altitude compensator is directly inline with this pin, so adding pressure to the port on the back will push the pin into the housing, restricting rack travel and reducing fuel delivery.
If you want it to deliver full fuel on boost then you need to hook a boost line up to the other side of the can.
But such an endeavour is pointless as when set correctly, your altitude compensator won't be restricting fuelling unless at very high altitude.

Dougal,

thanks for more explanation, it sounds like you have some key knowledge as to what is actually happening on the inside of the pump. I have not taken these apart, and do not know what reaction there is to the ALTCOMP/ANEROID getting more pressure. but I am trying to wrap my mind around some key facts, and the two devices in my mind work the same. one though is for no turbo, one is for turbo.

Something above seems inconsistent. What I think we are comparing is:

ALTCOMP set up without boost, only ambient pressure. Max fuel is delivered at max pressure which is sea level. so more pressure, pushing, should mean more fuel?

Aneroid - set up with boost pressure. Again, max fuel is delivered at Max pressure, in this case max boost pressure. max pressure, pushing, means more fuel?

[88tlc]

another view of this injection pump.

this is from the port side, the side that is up against the engine.

is it possible this ALT comp does have a rocker in there pulling a rod on the port side?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc