isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

[88tlc]

Andre and i work in a shop that is in Heber Utah, that's pronounced Heeber. It is a small town with a couple parts shops, a couple auto body shops, and one real muffler shop.

I gave this guy the shot to install the exhaust system. since i got this engine already pulled from the truck, i had no parts but the flange, and the exhaust brake.

he used 2.5 inch exhaust pipe, and a good welded diesel muffler. normal steel. all isolated hangers.

he added the jake brake just before the muffler, I still need the magnetic valve that controls the vacuum to the physical valve. this valve took 3 months of cooking in the sauce before it would bust loose. It works smoothly now , I hope it will last. how cool to have a jake brake on a landcruiser?!

[astr]

Congratulation! Looks like you have done a super job. While some of us talk about doing the swap, you went and did it! You provide inspiration for the rest of us.

Glad to see you installed the exhaust brake - I think you'll love it.

Please post your impressions after you get some miles on it.

[euclid]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

3. 4wd Hi - Lo shifter - this requires a connection to the trans, I have an idea, but it involves JB Weld! I need to think on that one for a bit yet.

Make the t-case fully manual. Git rid of the vacuum shifter.

See here

Looks great. Very very cool that it's running.

I'd love to see the budget when you are done.

[RHINO]

awsome another isuzu powered cruiser on the road,, congrats !!!.

[88tlc]

getting the intake worked out.

using the stock fj62 filter, but it has a square receiver. i welded up a square plate to 3 inch pipe, and then will have some hose and pipe from

www.intakehoses.com

to obtain this general shape.

been driving with this mockup intake, and the engine has a good vibration that resonates through the vehicle. make the change rattle in the ashtray sort of vibration.

thoughts?

flywheel out of balance? - there is a pin still in the flywheel from the clutch plate, is the fly wheel balanced with our without the pin?

adapter balance - there was a casting flaw that I noticed on the Isuzu Diesel Swapper. it is near the center, but is this enough to throw it off balance? The adapter centers onto the bearing in the crankshaft when installing, key to get it within .005 " of center.

harmonic dampener. i have read a bit about the diesel spike, from the large power spikes in the diesel engine. most diesels have a harmonic damper, a fluid filled damper that reduces this. does the isuzu have this diesel spike issue?


http://www.dynadroitclutches.com/vibration_damper.html

Engine mounts - the vibration should still be dampened through the mounts, right? i used the ford, fluid filled mounts.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the vibration?

[Dougal]

What mounts do you have on the other end of the drivetrain?

My vehicle uses 3" round by 1.5" thick industrial rubber isolators for engine mounts and they work very well. They're mounted at 60 deg (30 deg off vertical) which is similar to the geometry Isuzu use in their truck engine mounts.
At idle the engine vibrates about 10mm on it's mounts and doesn't rattle the rest of the vehicle much at all.

I'm not a fan of flat engine mounts. Rubber absorbs vibration best in shear, not the vertical compression/extension that it's put under when mounts are flat like that.

Diesels use a heavier flywheel to smooth out the crank pulses, the front drive pulley on mine (it's JDM spec, 24v and single V belt) appears to be two piece with rubber between in a harmonic damper fashion, but you'd have to cut one apart to know for sure.
But a crankshaft damper won't help the vehicle shaking. My flywheel had two 6mm pins 180 deg apart for clutch location. Is it those you refer to?

[RHINO]

i dont know about the vibes,,, mine is really smooth. but i used the stock isuzu motor mounts which are at shear like dougal mentions, maybe it really does help?

does the flywheel have only one pin?? i would pull it out. i dont think the casting flaw is a problem. you might want to check IP timing again.

[dieselcruiserhead]

My thought on it is something driveline related.. The question is whether the vibration happens when the vehicle is in motion. I do not think it is the isolators we used.. It could be a light flywheel out of balance issue too as there is about 20mm of broken off bolt in one hole (that is not used with the auto-flywheel adapter. Or it could (doubtfully) be a adapter machining issue.

My guess is about 90% oriented towards the driveshaft. We have about a 1-2 degree drop from the fornt of the engine to the back. Longer shackles in the rear or gulp, Bill might need to get a CV added to the rear driveshaft...

But that is my thought for now...

Also Bill I was down briefly last night, looks great and nice to see it all dialed up. I was temped to fire it up. I can make it down Fri or Sat for finish up and to get it ready to get it out of there...

[ThePookieBear]

So, if one was to make a 4BD1/2T-a440 adaptor would it just need to be a plate machined to allow the tranny to bolt up to the engine. Then you would need the custom torque converter from australia right? What kind of spacing would this require? And if I remember what the tranny guy from australia said it would need the auto flexplate. Is that correct? If I could get accurate measurements for the a440 and the engine housing I have a friend who says his boss wouldn't mind making them for the cost of materials and stuff. I'm not sure if I understand all the intricate details exactly, but basically you need an adaptor like the isuzudieselswapper one, but for the a440 right? I would like to try and move forward a bit on this. His boss said he needs more info, and I told him I would look into it and ask around with some "friends of mine."

[88tlc]

thanks for all the replies.

The engine vibrates at idle to like 1500rpm, I am working to get the tach in to check the rpms. I think the idle rpms are low, and could suggest incorrect IP timing.

at power and cruising down the road the vibration is the least noticed.

cruising it can vibrate, kind of coasting.

Dougal - there are in fact two pins 180 degrees from each other. I left them both in the flywheel. I also twisted off a bolt in the flywheel at the clutch attachment, but also added another bolt stud, cut off and a slot to screw it in 180 degrees. so I think the flywheel is balanced. at rpm I would expect a flywheel issue to get worse.

I also agree that the mounts should be in shear, and should do a better job of isolating. trans mount is original fj62 mount.

rhino - I agree with you about the IP, I have not yet checked the IP timing. I have it correct relative to the gear, and cam, but can check that #1 fuel is injected at 13 degrees b4 TDC. It can be 2 or 3 degrees off and make a big difference. You can micro adjust then by loosening the IP mounting bolts and rotate to correct timing. I assumed this was correct, but I now want to check it.


Andre, I dont think the driveline is the issue. it vibrates at idle, or not in gear.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

thanks for all the replies.

The engine vibrates at idle to like 1500rpm, I am working to get the tach in to check the rpms. I think the idle rpms are low, and could suggest incorrect IP timing.

They do rock around a lot at the normal idle speed of 650-700rpm, I bumped mine up to maybe 800rpm which smooths it out a lot. Above 1000rpm they're very smooth and sweet for a large 4cyl diesel.
I would definitely check the injection timing.

[RHINO]

you wouldnt think a little timing would be much but it sure does. when i got mine together it had a vibe at hiway cruise,,, just a little harmonic type deal. i thought about it and read a bunch on the injection system and decided to check the IP timing. it was only off 1 degree. i re-set it and i swear its as smooth as a 2F now.

you'll get it figured out,,, at least its running and driving, how big a smile do you have behind the wheel? i still have one.

[Dieseltim]

Well, it looks like I have finally got everything into one pile now, I have gotten most of the parts, and we just finished measuring everything up. I hope to have everything machined and ready to bolt together in the next few weeks.

I have found a way to get around the dual flywheel problem, by using an NV4500 tranny from a Dodge truck, an adapter from JB conversions to adapt the nv 4500 to my Dana 300, and now with a bit of machining I am making a plate to bolt the isuzu 5speed bellhousing to the front of the NV4500. With a replacement for the isuzu pilot bearing ( to match the NV) I think I have a WINNER!!!

I will have to do a bit of machine work on the Isuzu bellhousing to make clearance for the bearing retainer on the NV, but that will not be too big of a deal.


Is anyone else interested in trying this, after I get it all programmed up. I wander if anyone else would want one?


Dieseltim

[andrew.fletcher]

Well the engine is finally sitting on my garage floor, it only took me 3 months of trips back and forth to Southern Cal but it's finally done! Now I just need to figure out which tranny to use, 4L60 or 700r4. I was looking through the thread but couldn't find the comments regarding rpm's. Am I remembering correctly the agreed upon rpm the engine likes is around 2100 rpm? My next project is to figure out the best tire/3rd member combination. What am I doing wrong with this formula. ?

mph x final drive ratio x O.D ratio (no O.D is 1) / tire dia x 336 = rpm at the mph.

70 mph x 2.87 (final drive ratio of a 4L60) x .7 (O.D ratio for a 4L60) / 33 (planned tire size) x 336 = 1431 rpm. This is way too low I think. I got the numbers from a tranny specialty site and these numbers apply to a 4.11 gear.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

Well the engine is finally sitting on my garage floor, it only took me 3 months of trips back and forth to Southern Cal but it's finally done! Now I just need to figure out which tranny to use, 4L60 or 700r4. I was looking through the thread but couldn't find the comments regarding rpm's. Am I remembering correctly the agreed upon rpm the engine likes is around 2100 rpm? My next project is to figure out the best tire/3rd member combination. What am I doing wrong with this formula. ?

mph x final drive ratio x O.D ratio (no O.D is 1) / tire dia x 336 = rpm at the mph.

70 mph x 2.87 (final drive ratio of a 4L60) x .7 (O.D ratio for a 4L60) / 33 (planned tire size) x 336 = 1431 rpm. This is way too low I think. I got the numbers from a tranny specialty site and these numbers apply to a 4.11 gear.

great you have an engine, what kind did you end up with? have you rebuilt it or planning to just drop it in?

the 4L60 I understand to be a stronger Trans, and has an option to get a K case from trucks.

the equation you have there looks wrong, you do not need a final drive ratio and a OD ratio. here is another site, with all the gory details.

Speed versus RPM calculator


at 70 mph, with 4:11 gears, and .7 OD, and 33 inch tires, the engine will run about 2050 rpms. The optimum is around 1800 rpms (about 62 mph).

I recently got my tachometer installed autometer #2888 but do not have it calibrated, and I also have the 33 inch tires! but I am not putting them on, until I tweak the IP timing.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by RHINO

you wouldnt think a little timing would be much but it sure does. when i got mine together it had a vibe at hiway cruise,,, just a little harmonic type deal. i thought about it and read a bunch on the injection system and decided to check the IP timing. it was only off 1 degree. i re-set it and i swear its as smooth as a 2F now.

you'll get it figured out,,, at least its running and driving, how big a smile do you have behind the wheel? i still have one.

Oh the smile is there alright! I have now like 100 miles on it, but still I would like to tweak it. It is a lot like ocean sailing it seems, it is easy to get to 80% power, but the last 20% of the power takes a lot of refinement.
I would be curious how you checked your IP timing? I used the description in the manual, but was not able to get a consistent reading? Removed the #1 line, removed the valve holder, replaced without the spring or valve, rotate the crank, and then check when I saw fuel rise up in the #1 valve holder? should rise at -13TDC.

I also then pumped the Lift pump at -13 , -15, -17 and on, and would get fuel to come out of the #1 valve holder. Per the manual the fuel should come out at -13, but not come out at -14 TDC?

My concern with the IP pump that the fuel goes back down, I would think it would have a check valve somewhere. Unfortunately they do not let a whole lot of secrets out on the IP pump mechanics...

[andrew.fletcher]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

great you have an engine, what kind did you end up with? have you rebuilt it or planning to just drop it in?

the 4L60 I understand to be a stronger Trans, and has an option to get a K case from trucks.

the equation you have there looks wrong, you do not need a final drive ratio and a OD ratio. here is another site, with all the gory details.

Speed versus RPM calculator


at 70 mph, with 4:11 gears, and .7 OD, and 33 inch tires, the engine will run about 2050 rpms. The optimum is around 1800 rpms (about 62 mph).

I recently got my tachometer installed autometer #2888 but do not have it calibrated, and I also have the 33 inch tires! but I am not putting them on, until I tweak the IP timing.

It's a 4BD2T. There's a long story that goes with the engine which I'll put in my thread at some point. The short version is I bought a 1995 16' box truck with the engine in pieces, which it didn't have all of them (missing over $1000 worth). It dropped a piston 4 years ago, machine work was done then never put back together. Over the years, lots of parts got lost as it got moved around. I still need some bolts which I'll have to order from Isuzu.
Along with the transmission (4L60), I need to figure out the rest of the plumbing. I remember reading somebody had a pdf of the FSM but couldn't find the thread. Was I dreaming?

88tlc - I also sent you a PM. I re-read your posts and looked at the photos. Great info that will save me a lot time.

[rtarh2o]

That sounds familiar about missing parts and figuring out where they go. I bought a military 6.2 for my swap and it was missing all the accessories and brackets. I bought all new accessories and had a salvage yard send me all the brackets. It was like a jigsaw puzzle! The problem was that the 6.2 was used in so many cars and for so many years it was hard to find pictures of the exact set-up I had. That may be the same problem you encounter. Finally after several days of web searching and head scratching I got them all on. I will say this from my experience, trial fit your engine with all accessories on (mine fit but I had to move the battery position) install the fan w/clutch (if using one) radiator and fan shroud. I should have placed my engine about an inch further back for the fan to clear the radiator. As it sits I am using a flex fan without the clutch (probably a better set-up anyway) and I am having to modify the shroud (the engine sits about 3" more towards the drivers side) All of these would have been much easier before the engine was installed! Keep us posted, the Isuzu was my first choice for my conversion, in fact I thought I bought one but after a couple months I finally realized the guy wasn't going to go through with it, that is when the 6.2 sort of fell into my lap. I would still like to do an Isuzu conversion though.
Good luck
Rusty

[astr]

Originally Posted by andrew.fletcher

It's a 4BD2T. There's a long story that goes with the engine which I'll put in my thread at some point. The short version is I bought a 1995 16' box truck with the engine in pieces, which it didn't have all of them (missing over $1000 worth). It dropped a piston 4 years ago, machine work was done then never put back together. Over the years, lots of parts got lost as it got moved around. I still need some bolts which I'll have to order from Isuzu.
Along with the transmission (4L60), I need to figure out the rest of the plumbing. I remember reading somebody had a pdf of the FSM but couldn't find the thread. Was I dreaming?

88tlc - I also sent you a PM. I re-read your posts and looked at the photos. Great info that will save me a lot time.

The FSM for the 4BD1T is posted on MattF's site at Master Portal - forums.bauchan.org/Isuzu Manuals Most of the information applies to the 4BD2T as they share the same bottom end (except pistons).

MattF has also posted FSMs for the Isuzu 2000-2003 trucks that cover the 4HE1 and 6HK1 diesel engines.

[andrew.fletcher]

Originally Posted by astr

The FSM for the 4BD1T is posted on MattF's site at Master Portal - forums.bauchan.org/Isuzu Manuals Most of the information applies to the 4BD2T as they share the same bottom end (except pistons).

MattF has also posted FSMs for the Isuzu 2000-2003 trucks that cover the 4HE1 and 6HK1 diesel engines.

Perfect -Thanks a bunch. Now I just need to find the right time of day won't the server isn't overloaded!

[RHINO]

cool andrew, one step closer.

88tlc,, i got to talking with a mechanic guy i know,,, he's mostly a big truck guy but does the isuzu fleet for a large landscape company here so i like to pick his brain. he "let me borrow" a timing thing that plugs into the #1 IP line on the bottom of the pump, it also has a deal that attaches to it and can read RPM.

[Dieseltim]

I have finally gotten everything bolted together to see how it is all going to fit, and it looks GREAT. I have the anwser for those of you that would like to put a 4bd into most anything now without the having to use two flywheels. I am using the bellhousing from the isuzu 5speed and an NV4500 from a Dodge truck ( has a longer input shaft). Used the isuzu pressure plate and the dodge clutch disk, changed the pilot bearing and bolted in an adapter plate between the bellhousing and the NV4500. For those who said it can't be done I have the pics to prove it. For anyone else that would like to do an NV4500 adapter. I will be taking orders Now. Kits will be ready in the next few weeks, as soon as we can get the CNC programmed to make them.

In the first pic below you can see that the dodge throwout bearing will fit onto the isuzu clutch arm and that it looks stock.

The second pic is of the whole assy bolted together.

Dieseltim

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Dieseltim

I am using the bellhousing from the isuzu 5speed and an NV4500 from a Dodge truck ( has a longer input shaft). Used the isuzu pressure plate and the dodge clutch disk, changed the pilot bearing and bolted in an adapter plate between the bellhousing and the NV4500.

You my friend are a genius.
Congrats on both getting it done and making it stupidly easy for those who follow you.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dieseltim

I have the anwser for those of you that would like to put a 4bd into most anything now without the having to use two flywheels. ...... Kits will be ready in the next few weeks, as soon as we can get the CNC programmed to make them.

Looks great! I am definitely interested. The NV4500 is a great transmission and there are adapters available to the LC t-case.

Let me know how much for the kit and what you plan to include.

How thick is your adapter and how do you insure proper alignment?

[Dieseltim]

astr,

The first pics show that the throwout bearing tube has been bored out to the size of the bearing retainer for the NV4500, and the next pics shows that installed into the isuzu bellhousing. For the this proto-type we choose to make the plate 3/8" so that the input shaft would be long enough to reach into the pilot bushing. Using the 3/8" plate meant that we also had to relieve the backside of the bellhousing to allow for the NV4500 bearing retainer and the bolts that hold it onto the front of the tranny, to fit into the back of the bellhousing. Now that we have it all together it looks like 1/2" plate will work ok for the shaft length, so that will save the machine work to relieve the backside of the isuzu bellhousing, but the hole will still have to be bored thru where the throwout bearing rides, As this is the only place to get everything lined up.

As for what we are planning to include in the kit.

The adapter plate cost will be determained after we get everything programmed for CNC.

The clutch disk

pilot bearing

Throwout bearing

All the bolts & nuts

You will need to have a bellhousing to send to us for the machine work or have it done locally if you can find someone you trust to work to the 1000th of an inch.


Dieseltim