[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

so the engines in this thread are used but the idea is to offer a kit to install brand new engines, what kind of cost are we talking here? and the 4BD1T is availabe as a crate motor still, correct?
after re-reading the thread it seems the 4BD1T is 121 hp and the 4BD2T is 136 hp but cracks heads. according to your statements it seems the 4BD2T (There are also an alarming number of new 4BD2T heads on Ebay, if there's that much demand I'd be steering clear.) is a poor choice of engine due to this problem. (i have yet to see any cracked 1HZ,1HDT heads in Canada but then we have not had these engines here for more than 2 years (other than in the mines and after talking with Brian at ENS they have not seen any cracked heads there either)). in Oz the report back is the 1HZ is cracking heads AFTER installation of a turbo (which leads to a whole different list of questions there)
in actuall fuel milage reports coming back comparing the 3B(indirect injection) with the 13BT (direct injection) the 13BT is getting worse milage by on average 5 mpg. the 2H (indirect injection) compared to the 12HT (direct injection) the same results are being reported. the 1HZ and the HDT are reporting close to the same milage returns, high 20s to very low 30s. (you need to meet more poeple i guess)
it seems the direct injection returns worse fuel milage but much better power and this does not seem to jive with your findings about the direct injection being better on fuel.
i never heard of "smaller horses" can you explain how one rated hp can be smaller than another one rated hp?
i do agree a NA horse power engine compared to a turbo'd hp enigne of the same rating does seem slower. i.e. a 1HZ 135 hp compared to a 13BT 135 hp. the 13BT is MUCH faster. seat of the pants is night and day difference.
now, after re-reading the tread again it seems NO lift is needed for the 4BD1T which is a good considering most don't want a lift just to clear the oil pan but then it seems that in other posts it does need a lift...which is correct does this engine need a lift to clear or not?
why would Isuzu go from, according to you, a direct injected engine to a indirect injected engine in the second version (4BD2T)? the idirect is noisier, harder on fuel and less power but the 4BD2T is rated at more hp than the 1st generation 4BD, or am i missing something here?

once again i am not arguing but trying to get my head around the advantage of doing this swap over a tried and true and easier Toyota engine swap...

finally, have you actually completed one of these swaps or is most of the info you have posted book knowledge?

I have no idea what your agenda is here. But your posts seem to verge on little other than "stirring".
If you have no interest in swapping a 4BD1T into your rig then why are you posting in this thread?

I do not intend to swap an Isuzu into a toyota, my whole point of being here is to help people who want to, I was asked to come and and contribute to this thread. My truck already has an Isuzu 4BD1T conversion. I literally know these engines inside out.

Your knowledge of indirect vs direct injection is poor.
Indirect injection is quieter but less efficient. It results in a quieter engine with less NOx emission through lower peak cylinder temps. It is these same lower peak cylinder temps which cause lower efficiency.

The 4BD2T produces more power because it is factory intercooled, the 4BD1T is not.
So yes, you are missing something.

No the 4BD1T is not available as a crate motor. There is a marine version still in production.

Typical fuel consumption for an 80 or 100 series cruiser is 12-14 litres per 100km. That's less than 8km/L or 22.4 english MPG. In US MPG that's worse still (small gallons).

Automotive HP and Industrial HP are different. In short there is no bullsh*t in industrial figures. Engines must produce rated output power when driving all accessories in the stated conditions. Automotive engines have no such requirement.

[crushers]

actually, not in this thread am i stirring the pot. i am interested in other conversions and am quite uniformed since i mostly stick with Toyota engines.

after reading some of your other threads i realised you had a running conversion completed which is nice to know... MANY people come on these forums with little more than some book knowledge. to me that is a waste since real life and book knowledge doesn't always go hand in hand... as i am sure you know.

are you directing your knowledge of indiret vs direct just on the izusu engine experience or a broader range? in my experience with the Toyota engines i have found the opposite to be true... i can only go on my personal experience. (oh and that rattle box IDI 7.3 powersmoke...which BTW gave excellent fuel milage)

why did the 2nd generation go indirect when they intercooled it, to me this sounds like a step backwards in design.

understood about the industrial and the automotive BS figures. interesting to call it "smaller hp"... couldn't understand the term.

yes, the 1HZ is anemic in performance till turbo'd, then it comes alive.

your fuel figures are incorrect when compared to what Canadians are getting with their engines. mind you that might be due to longer stretches of highway or driving habits...

your contributions are appreciated but i do question much of what i read. i take little at face value.

[RHINO]

hey crushers, from a yank point of view. i'll try to keep it short.

in general it came down to parts, i would have liked to do a toy diesel but we never got any. i know i can get parts easily in the USA but its always gonna be a wait, nobody has them in stock locally like my isuzu guy does. typically i can walk in get my parts over the counter and walk out. thats a big plus.

longevity and reliability, i dont think there is any difference. you have to remember that all our 4BD1/2 real world engine data is comming fromt he medium duty truck industry where these engines are working there butts off in less than properly cared for 12.000 LB trucks doing everything you can imagine. i would expect nothing less than super tough reliable power for a long long time in my easy going cruiser.

power and economy, well thats pretty much self explanitory. displacement is power, its also economy, find the right balance as most modern engines do and its all pretty much the same.

as far as direct or indirect, i think its gonna be a preference. direct makes more power and economy, but indirect is quieter ,smoother and can rev higher. so its all in what your building. i prefer direct but thats just me.

so i dont know, my use of the isuzu mostly came from the availability, all in all its very similar to toyotas 13BT series engine.

[prado t]

Hi Wayne I see what you are trying to get at here, I believe that doing an Isuzu swap is much cheaper. Going by G.S. prices for a 1HZ up to 8000 bucks where you can get the Isuzu for max price 3500 bucks the suzy is a little more industrialized than the toy and do know that people with Head Bandages in VAN
that do no maintenance at all in those overloaded and undermaintained 2-3 ton
cabovers well they go a minimum of 350,000 you see what I am getting at
evrybody is right I think you get more bang for the buck with the suzy but more difficult installation
aaron kuit

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

why did the 2nd generation go indirect when they intercooled it, to me this sounds like a step backwards in design.

If you read my last post, I addressed that.
It was done to meet emissions.

Find BSFC numbers and indirect injection engines always come out poorly. There has been no exception yet.

Originally Posted by crushers

your fuel figures are incorrect when compared to what Canadians are getting with their engines. mind you that might be due to longer stretches of highway or driving habits...

The figures I quoted are overall combined, averaged over thousands of km's use. Not the best acheived on a single highway trip.
Urban and offroad use will half your highway fuel economy.
IMO telling someone they'll get 30MPG (even UK gallons) in an 80 or 100 series landcruiser is BS. Sure you can get that if you want to cruise at 80km/h in a straight line for hours on end. But who does.

[RHINO]

ok to bram and the others wanting a different adapter route, i just had a krazy simple idea. take off the isuzu bellhousing "ring", and make a simple plate to allow the toyota bellhousing to be bolted on to the block. simple, it will allow the use of the H41-42 and H55 trannies with all the stock toyota clutch starter and everything else. i just might check into this for myself.
i didnt think of this earlier even though i compared the two with my bellhousing thinking i might be able to bolt mine on the isuzu engine. they bolt on the same way just a different pattern.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

ok to bram and the others wanting a different adapter route, i just had a krazy simple idea. take off the isuzu bellhousing "ring", and make a simple plate to allow the toyota bellhousing to be bolted on to the block. simple, it will allow the use of the H41-42 and H55 trannies with all the stock toyota clutch starter and everything else. i just might check into this for myself.
i didnt think of this earlier even though i compared the two with my bellhousing thinking i might be able to bolt mine on the isuzu engine. they bolt on the same way just a different pattern.

Get me the measurements and I'll check.
The Isuzu bellhousing bolts to the block with 8 14mm bolts and 2 locating studs.

Here's a pic.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

Get me the measurements and I'll check.
The Isuzu bellhousing bolts to the block with 8 14mm bolts and 2 locating studs.

Here's a pic.

Just to clear up any confusion regarding terminology - there are two castings that bolt between the engine block and the transmission case. The "adapter" that Dougal shows bolts to the engine block and provides the mount for the starter. It is the same part number for both the automatic and manual transmission. Between the "adapter" and the transmission case is the "bell housing" Normally, the bell housing would be considered part of the transmission, but with Isuzu, they are a seperate piece that bolts to both the tranny and "adapter". The bell housings are different for the manual and automatic transmissions.

Having multiple pieces between the engine block and the transmission case provides us multiple options for adapting the 4BD1/2 to TLC: 1) Replace the "adapter" as RHINO suggests. 2) Sandwich an adapter ring between the "adapter" and a TLC bell housing. 3) Use an Isuzu "adapter" and bell housing and sandwich an adapter plate between the Isuzu bell housing and a TLC transmission case. 4) Use the Isuzu "adapter", bell housing and tranny (manual or automatic) and fab an adapter between the output of the tranny and the t-case, similar to what Dougal did.

Crushers:

If your going to quote this thread, at least do it accurately. There have been several other engines besides the Isuzu 4BD1T and 4BD2T discussed here including the Isuzu 4HE1-TC and the Cummins 4BT. Your comment regarding exhaust being on the opposite side to that of the 2F and 3FE applies to the 4HE1-TC and not the 4BD1/2. The need for a lift applies to the 4BT and hasn't been determined for a 4BD1/2.

[RHINO]

Originally Posted by astr

Crushers:

If your going to quote this thread, at least do it accurately.

now that you bring it up i noticed several holes in his statements as well, but i didnt have time to point it all out when i responded earlier. i think hes just mixing stuff up a bit, there is alot of info and alot of jumping around on this thread. however here's the real deal as it pertains to an FJ55 anyway. i think if one were to set the isuzu engine all the way back to the firewall you wouldnt need a lift, but i decided to hold it off the firewall about 6" and i think it would need a small lift for oilpan clearance if i wasnt already lifted.

oh BTW, to clear things up about my adapter idea, i mean to replace the isuzu "adapter" with a plate to be able to bolt the cruiser bellhousing right on the isuzu block, just as it does the toyota engine. i wish i had thought of this earlier as i would have gone that route.

dougal i have a cruiser bellhousing right here, i'll do the best i can for measurements so you can check that out.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

Just to clear up any confusion regarding terminology - there are two castings that bolt between the engine block and the transmission case. The "adapter" that Dougal shows bolts to the engine block and provides the mount for the starter. It is the same part number for both the automatic and manual transmission. Between the "adapter" and the transmission case is the "bell housing" Normally, the bell housing would be considered part of the transmission, but with Isuzu, they are a seperate piece that bolts to both the tranny and "adapter". The bell housings are different for the manual and automatic transmissions.

Our terminology is always going to differ. But to me there is an engine bellhousing and a gearbox bellhousing. That's the engine one I posted up.
Some engines don't have an engine bellhousing, they use flat adaptor plate.

Here is a section through the centreline of the engine.

The flywheel is gold, you can see a slight difference in colour between the block and engine bellhousing.
The gearbox input shaft and support bearing haven't been added yet.

The Isuzu gearboxes use the gearbox bellhousing as part of the front case which includes the input shaft seal. They are removable and swappable, but expect them to dump all the oil on the floor when unbolted.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

. . . The Isuzu gearboxes use the gearbox bellhousing as part of the front case which includes the input shaft seal. They are removable and swappable, but expect them to dump all the oil on the floor when unbolted.

You are absolutely correct. I looked in the manual and see that the front seal and the sleeve that the throwout bearing slide on are part of the gearbox bellhousing. That being the case, it probably will be next to impossible to mate a TLC gearbox to the Isuzu gearbox bellhousing as I suggested in one of my previous posts.

[belaw]

Originally Posted by Dieseltim

I just got off the phone with David at "isuzuswapper" he just told me that up till 85 4bd1 (b4 they were turbo) engines came with chevy transmissions and they were "SAE" housings. In 85 they change to Japanesse automatic tranmissions and these took different flywheel housings. So, if you can find an older 4bd1 engine you can get a ring and bolt up what ever domestic tranny you like.

Dieseltim

This is a great thread; I've been following it for awhile, and finally have to jump in with a questions that I'm unclear on after reading the whole thing a couple of times: do the pre-85/pre-turbo gearbox bellhousings with a SAE pattern really exist? I found a reference on another site (http://cruisers.shoumatoffmedia.com/4bd.html) that Isuzu used to make an adapter that allows SAE #3 bell housings to be used (gearbox bellhousing, I assume)- is this the same thing? Wouldn't this simplify things greatly if you wanted to use a GM transmission?


Also, the discussion about whether body lift is necessary is a little fuzzy to me; assuming you want to keep the engine off the firewall, how much lift would you need for oil pan clearance? (I'm not a big fan of body lift, so less is better!)

Finally, are engine mounts commercially available, or would they have to be fabricated?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by belaw

This is a great thread; I've been following it for awhile, and finally have to jump in with a questions that I'm unclear on after reading the whole thing a couple of times: do the pre-85/pre-turbo gearbox bellhousings with a SAE pattern really exist? I found a reference on another site (http://cruisers.shoumatoffmedia.com/4bd.html) that Isuzu used to make an adapter that allows SAE #3 bell housings to be used (gearbox bellhousing, I assume)- is this the same thing? Wouldn't this simplify things greatly if you wanted to use a GM transmission?

The SAE flywheel housing is only fitted to the industrial engines (excavators, compressors, generators etc), no model year relation. I have a few threads on www.4BTswaps.com which are dedicated to sorting out that particular rumour.

[RHINO]

rumore or not if you find an SAE isuzu you still need to adapt it to a tranny.

lift : its not the depth of the engine, its the fact that to clear the starter you need to favor the passenger side of the truck, where the pumpkin is. also, the higher you place the engine in the bay the less lift you'll need, i kept mine a bit low for center of gravity since i have all kinds of axle clearance. from looking at mine i'd say you could simply notch the oilpan a bit to clear with no lift at all, or i think a 2-3" lift would work ok. the oilpan will hit the pumpkin right on that oil return "hump" on top, but only the edge. maybe an inch, so a oilpan notch would be doable.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

lift : its not the depth of the engine, its the fact that to clear the starter you need to favor the passenger side of the truck

The stock starter is a geared item that can get in the way.
On my engine it's been replaced with a direct drive one which is more compact but draws a much higher amperage to start. Roughly 200 amps on 24V to crank over a recently rebuilt engine.

[RHINO]

good to know for clearance, but i'm pretty sure all of us in the USA got the gear reduction 12v units. better starter for the application cause its keeps things simple. i have about 20mm clearance on both sides with the parts that stick out the most, starter on one side of course and the power steering pump hard line on the other.
its a tight fit in the frame w/o mods to the frame but its fine and nothing hits. i really wanted to clock the starter but the 3 mounting bolts are not equal.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

good to know for clearance, but i'm pretty sure all of us in the USA got the gear reduction 12v units. better starter for the application cause its keeps things simple. i have about 20mm clearance on both sides with the parts that stick out the most, starter on one side of course and the power steering pump hard line on the other.
its a tight fit in the frame w/o mods to the frame but its fine and nothing hits. i really wanted to clock the starter but the 3 mounting bolts are not equal.

Sure about the 12v thing?
All our truck motors are 24 volt, some of the industrial engines were 12.
You'll know when you try to start it the first time.

My truck has the chassis rail notched even for the direct drive starter. Lifting the engine 2" more would have cleared it, but then you'd be reshaping the transmission tunnel and bonnet (hood).

[astr]

So far I've found all the US Isuzu NPR trucks and GM/Chevy derivatives are 12V, including the 4HE1 and the current 4HK1 engines. They all come with dual 12V batteries but are wired in parallel.

Personally, I would prefer a 24V system from the performance standpoint, however, it is a real PITA from parts availability and compatability with towing and accessories, at least here in the US.

[RHINO]

Originally Posted by Dougal

Sure about the 12v thing?
You'll know when you try to start it the first time.

well since i've been driving it for the past 2 weeks i hope i'm sure.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

So far I've found all the US Isuzu NPR trucks and GM/Chevy derivatives are 12V, including the 4HE1 and the current 4HK1 engines. They all come with dual 12V batteries but are wired in parallel.

Personally, I would prefer a 24V system from the performance standpoint, however, it is a real PITA from parts availability and compatability with towing and accessories, at least here in the US.

Well that sure is interesting.
The Isuzu NPR's here are all 24V, both batteries are wired in series.
They have warning stickers on the cigarette lighter socket, even my glowplugs are stamped 23V.
Don't know what they did with the stereo though, that's gotta be 12v.

My truck has 24v starting, everything else is 12v. Has a series/parrallel switch taking up a lot of space under the bonnet.

[acy76]

I have a question on transmission choices, if I may:

Let's suppose someone wanted to use a 5-speed manual transmission that was made for the chevy V8 with this conversion (eliminates the need for additional adapters), along with a common passenger-drop transfer case, something like a Dana 300, BUT did not want to deal with the expense, weight or low 1st gear of the NV4500. Is there a stock combination that would work? Something from a 1/2- or 3/4-ton Chevy pickup? Or is the NV4500 the only game in town?

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

What did you get for a rocker cover gasket?
The factory one is shaped to fit and looks right. The aftermarket kit I had was simply a long piece of oring rubber. I was not impressed.

Here is a photo of the gasket set that I purchased from gaskets4less for around $100 for my 4BD1T. It seems to be quite complete and includes crank seals, valve stem seals, a multi-layer steel head gasket and a molded valve cover gasket. The label on the package says Isuzu 4BC2, which, from your previous post is a 3.3 L engine whereas the 4BD1T is 3.9 L. The headgasket seems to fit perfectly, so I have to assume that the difference in displacement is due to a difference in stroke. I would feel better isf the label did say 4BD1T

[RHINO]

acy, chevy has non NV4500 5 speed trannies no problem there. but i dont know what all they can adapt to, an adapter for something like a D300 would most likely be needed but since the "other" GM 5 speeds are not being used much for conversions i would have no clue what is available, i would start by contacting advance adapters to see if the offer anything or can give you any info.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

Here is a photo of the gasket set that I purchased from gaskets4less for around $100 for my 4BD1T. It seems to be quite complete and includes crank seals, valve stem seals, a multi-layer steel head gasket and a molded valve cover gasket. The label on the package says Isuzu 4BC2, which, from your previous post is a 3.3 L engine whereas the 4BD1T is 3.9 L. The headgasket seems to fit perfectly, so I have to assume that the difference in displacement is due to a difference in stroke. I would feel better isf the label did say 4BD1T

I'm afraid that none of your timing gear gaskets will fit.
The 4BC2 doesn't have the powersteering pump integrated into the front gear train.
Those exhaust port gaskets are also bad. The genuine ones are stainless steel with a beads rolled into them. I'd reuse the old ones.
Other items of concern looking at that is the intake manifold gasket. The factory item is moulded rubber and steel, again I'd reuse the factory one if it doesn't need disturbed or damaged.
The large sump gasket is completely different too. Factory is a two layer rubber sandwich, that is a single layer paper item.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm afraid that none of your timing gear gaskets will fit.
The 4BC2 doesn't have the powersteering pump integrated into the front gear train.
Those exhaust port gaskets are also bad. The genuine ones are stainless steel with a beads rolled into them. I'd reuse the old ones.
Other items of concern looking at that is the intake manifold gasket. The factory item is moulded rubber and steel, again I'd reuse the factory one if it doesn't need disturbed or damaged.
The large sump gasket is completely different too. Factory is a two layer rubber sandwich, that is a single layer paper item.

Actually, I'm just trying to get the engine running well enough to allow me to evaluate what I am going to do next. The engine had two bad (partially-melted) pistons and the head gasket was bad. Not sure which happened first. The cylinder walls in the cylinders with the bad pistons look fine. I picked up a couple of good used pistons with rings from 88tlc that I will use. I pulled the whole head with intake and exhaust attached so I don't need those gaskets. I prefer to use RTV silicone rubber for oil pan so if that pan gasket doesn't fit its no big deal. I do need the valve cover gasket as the old one was damaged pulling the cover off.

My objective is to get the engine running well enough so that I can drive the truck around a bit and see how well I like the engine and the MSA5D tranny. If I like the combo well enough, I'll try to address the shifting issue and the T-case adapter issue. If I decide that I want to move forward with installing the combination in my FJ62, then I will rebuild the engine properly.

Parallel to this effort, I still want to evaluate the A440F/A450 hybrid automatic transmission. If I can come up with a workable solution, then I'll go the 4HE1 route.

All I need is more hours in a day or less projects to make some progress on the FJ.

[RHINO]

does the 4BD1 have a low oil shutdown? i dont see anything of it on the FSM i have.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

does the 4BD1 have a low oil shutdown? i dont see anything of it on the FSM i have.

I don't think so.
The engine has an oil pressure switch, for the light on the dash. That's all I'm aware of.

It also features an old fashioned dipstick, by far the most reliable indicator of oil volume.

[RHINO]

dipstick?? your crazy man, everbody knows a dipstick is another term for a drongo.

[astr]

Dougal: When you converted your MSA tranny to top shift, what shift pattern did you end up with?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

Dougal: When you converted your MSA tranny to top shift, what shift pattern did you end up with?

It wasn't me (honest). It was done about 15 years ago using Austin Allegro parts.
The resulting pattern is
R24
135

Most vehicles here have reverse by 5th, but the Toyota Dyna light trucks at work have the same shift pattern.