[kbill45]

I have a 77 and 78 frame off resto going now. Both have ac but with the compressor on the driver side. I want to include ps but where to
put the pump?

Has anyone here did an MR2 conversion? If so from what donor vehicle?

[CruiserStuff]

MR2 conversion? Wouldn't the donor vehicle be an MR2? Might want to see about a power steering setup from an FJ80 - my '92 has the pump mounted on the passenger side.

[kbill45]

Thanks CruiserStuff. Sounds like a good alternative. I will check it out. Bill

[DanS HJ-45]

Just to add...

The FJ-62 has the PS pump on the right (passenger) side. Have you looked into the wdorry bracket? I *think* that might fit around the AC, but not sure. Orangefj45 would be the guy to talk to about that.

Dan

[joeyg1973]

I am the person doing the mr2 ps conversion. Look for a pump from a 90 - 95. I am actually using the whole system and if you go that route it is easiest to get it from the same year as they changed things electrically from year to year. That means the pump, driver, computer, steering wheel sensor ring, and all the pig tails. I then rewired everything back up. I am going to use the steering gear from an IH Scout II. I haven't actually put any of this stuff in the truck yet as I am STILL jumping though hoops to get my house and garage completed. But there is no reason this shouldn't work I just can't fine tune the whole thing to work in a 40 yet. The mr2s are rare in this country and for some reason junk yards are charging rediculous rates for parts. I had a source in England and I got parts much cheaper even with the bad exchange rate and shipping. Look for Toyota breakers or mr2 breakers in England on google and that would be a good place to start. Also look at my build up thread for some more details. I also have a link that I will put here but I am currently on my iPhone. Drop me a pm to remind me.

[Rat70Fj]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I am actually using the whole system and if you go that route it is easiest to get it from the same year as they changed things electrically from year to year. That means the pump, driver, computer, steering wheel sensor ring, and all the pig tails. .

What's the point of all this complexity?

[orangefj45]

i have to agree with kent.

"just because it can be done does'nt mean you have to" comes to mind.

ask me, you're trying to make a complex system work in a simple vehicle. why make things more complicated than they need to be. less components equals less chance for failure.
also, the MR2 is a lightweight rear engine 2 seater sports car. i bet a fully set up cruiser weighs twice as much. will the steering pump produce the kind or pressure and flow you need to work properly in a trail rig, especially something that might go in the rocks?!

don't get me wong, i'm all abut figuring things out and making them work. without people like you who have their own ideas and actually make them work we would'nt make a whole lot of progress. but i also think that we should pick our battles wisely.

georg

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by kbill45

I have a 77 and 78 frame off resto going now. Both have ac but with the compressor on the driver side. I want to include ps but where to
put the pump?

Has anyone here did an MR2 conversion? If so from what donor vehicle?

bill. could you post a pic of what you have come up with so far so we can see what you've got going on there?

georg

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

i have to agree with kent.

"just because it can be done does'nt mean you have to" comes to mind.

ask me, you're trying to make a complex system work in a simple vehicle. why make things more complicated than they need to be. less components equals less chance for failure.
also, the MR2 is a lightweight rear engine 2 seater sports car. i bet a fully set up cruiser weighs twice as much. will the steering pump produce the kind or pressure and flow you need to work properly in a trail rig, especially something that might go in the rocks?!

don't get me wong, i'm all abut figuring things out and making them work. without people like you who have their own ideas and actually make them work we would'nt make a whole lot of progress. but i also think that we should pick our battles wisely.

georg

I have been over this before but...

1) the mr2 pump puts out 2000 psi on high. About 400 psi higher than any engine driven performance pump.

2) while the mr2 pump has a crazy mtbf I still want it to last a good long time and it makes no point to run the thing on high all the time sucking down all those amps when I only need it at slow speeds when turning. And no I don't want to have to turn it on and off manually when I can have it do that for me as it was designed and have a manual override to turn it to high when I am offroad.

3) Have you seen what I am doing to my truck? Seriously go read the build up thread then come back here and tell me I am crazy like everybody else.

4) It wasn't that hard for me to figure out the wiring so while it maybe complex for some, for me it seems fairly simple.

When I get done doing my testing on it I will put up very easy to follow instructions but if you can read a wiring diagram you should be able to figure it out on your own.

[kbill45]

Thanks for the input guys. I am only trying to add ps to 2 FJ40s that have ac compressors on the left side and someone mentioned The MR2 set up which I know nothing about. It certainly sounds complicated. I have never owned a 62 but if that ps pump is mounted on the right side could this be an easier solution?

georg. I don't know how to post pictures but I will email you a pic of my setup.
you may have what I need and can send it with the box bracket. I will need 2 of the brackets but if you only have one made up now that is fine. Thanks Bill

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I have been over this before but...

1) the mr2 pump puts out 2000 psi on high. About 400 psi higher than any engine driven performance pump.

2) while the mr2 pump has a crazy mtbf I still want it to last a good long time and it makes no point to run the thing on high all the time sucking down all those amps when I only need it at slow speeds when turning. And no I don't want to have to turn it on and off manually when I can have it do that for me as it was designed and have a manual override to turn it to high when I am offroad.

3) Have you seen what I am doing to my truck? Seriously go read the build up thread then come back here and tell me I am crazy like everybody else.

4) It wasn't that hard for me to figure out the wiring so while it maybe complex for some, for me it seems fairly simple.

When I get done doing my testing on it I will put up very easy to follow instructions but if you can read a wiring diagram you should be able to figure it out on your own.

i'm going to have to respectfully dis-agree with most of your mods. all the custom work and parts going into this cruiser are going to create a nightmare as far as "trail fixes" are concerned. but best of luck to you and the project. i do like some of your ideas and i understand your thinking behind them but for this application it's a "no" for me.

georg @ valley hybrids

[orangefj45]

ask me, i'd relocate the york to the passenger side along with the alternator. i know butch lewis used to make the brackets and i think mudrak sells them. i have one at the shop if you want to go that route.
running the accs that way will allow for the ac lines to stay on the passeger side along with the alt wiring. the ps lines will stay on the driver side of the engine so no hoses will be criss-crossing the engine. should make for a cleaner look and sano install.

otherwise you'll have to do some custom bracket fabbing. the 3fe stuff won't just bolt up.......


georg

[kbill45]

Thanks georg. I like that idea better. Check and see if you have that right side mount bracket. Bill

[orangefj45]

will do. i'll get back to you tomorrow evening.


georg

[Rat70Fj]

By request, I'm reposting the deleted post above:


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyg1973
I have been over this before but...

1) the mr2 pump puts out 2000 psi on high. About 400 psi higher than any engine driven performance pump.

2) while the mr2 pump has a crazy mtbf I still want it to last a good long time and it makes no point to run the thing on high all the time sucking down all those amps when I only need it at slow speeds when turning. And no I don't want to have to turn it on and off manually when I can have it do that for me as it was designed and have a manual override to turn it to high when I am offroad.

3) Have you seen what I am doing to my truck? Seriously go read the build up thread then come back here and tell me I am crazy like everybody else.

4) It wasn't that hard for me to figure out the wiring so while it maybe complex for some, for me it seems fairly simple.

When I get done doing my testing on it I will put up very easy to follow instructions but if you can read a wiring diagram you should be able to figure it out on your own

end quote




I read it. You're fawkin' nuts. If you need more power than a Sag conversion, then do a hydro assist. These are simple vehicles, every electronic system you add, ads to the potential non repairable failure rate at a remote location. The basic mantra of going deep off road is KISS. This boggles my mind why you'd want to do this, but maybe I'm easily bogglable! Shit, I don't even like my electric fans.

[FJ40Jim]

I would finish the desmog by removing the air pump. Then mount the minitruck PS pump in the AP position, with the remote reservoir up on the fender.

[Pin_Head]

The pump pressure ins't particularly important by itself. It is pressure times volume that provides the power. A high pressure pump means that you can use a smaller diameter piston to deliver the same amount of work, but the pressure rating of all the components has to match. Using a pump that exceeds the pressure limits of the other components is counter productive.

[kbill45]

Thanks Jim C. Good idea for one truck but I have to smog the other.

[FJ40Jim]

Fair enough. If the truck has to be smog leagal, then use the acc'y brackets off an 81-newer 2F to mount a Denso compressor underneath the alternator, and PS above the AP.

[kbill45]

Thanks again. I have access to 60 parts here.

[orangefj45]

some pics

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by FJ40Jim

Fair enough. If the truck has to be smog leagal, then use the acc'y brackets off an 81-newer 2F to mount a Denso compressor underneath the alternator, and PS above the AP.

exactly! unless you're dead set on the york you're better off using as many opem components as possible so the fj60 parts should work out well for ya.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Rat70Fj

By request, I'm reposting the deleted post above:


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyg1973
I have been over this before but...

1) the mr2 pump puts out 2000 psi on high. About 400 psi higher than any engine driven performance pump.

2) while the mr2 pump has a crazy mtbf I still want it to last a good long time and it makes no point to run the thing on high all the time sucking down all those amps when I only need it at slow speeds when turning. And no I don't want to have to turn it on and off manually when I can have it do that for me as it was designed and have a manual override to turn it to high when I am offroad.

3) Have you seen what I am doing to my truck? Seriously go read the build up thread then come back here and tell me I am crazy like everybody else.

4) It wasn't that hard for me to figure out the wiring so while it maybe complex for some, for me it seems fairly simple.

When I get done doing my testing on it I will put up very easy to follow instructions but if you can read a wiring diagram you should be able to figure it out on your own

end quote




I read it. You're fawkin' nuts. If you need more power than a Sag conversion, then do a hydro assist. These are simple vehicles, every electronic system you add, ads to the potential non repairable failure rate at a remote location. The basic mantra of going deep off road is KISS. This boggles my mind why you'd want to do this, but maybe I'm easily bogglable! ****, I don't even like my electric fans.

It's a generational thing. I am Gen X and I was pretty much raised on electronics and computers. I work in IT for a living. The electronic components of today have such a greater MTBF over mechanical components it is ridiculous because they have little to no moving parts. An electric motor will outlast a comparable compression based engine by decades if run continuously under load. Even if one of the solid state devices, either the driver or the computer goes bad, I still will have it wired up to drive the electric pump manually on high off road. At that point it a one to one comparrison of failure points.

Look if we stuck with the KISS theory, humans would have never bothered with fire because it just so much easier to chomp on that raw meat than to wait for that pesky fire to cook it. Hmmm parasites... KISS is only applicable when something is brand new and unproven. Last I checked solid state electronics have been around since WWII and electric motors since oh let's say a century or more.

I can guarantee you that the electric steering pump, computer, and driver will outlast every moving part on the cruiser.

Let's put it this way, hardly anybody uses points distributors anymore because electronic solid state distributors are way better and more reliable.

Just saying...

PS: I will probably do a ram assist at some point, that's why I chose the pump that I did.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

An electric motor will outlast a comparable compression based engine by decades if run continuously under load.

At least you used the correct nomenclature.




I would wager money that if you were to park a current-era vehicle outside in the weather for 25 years and simply put a battery in it and try and start it after it had been sitting for that period of time, that you would have far more problems to address other than just sanding points and getting spark and fuel to the engine.


Over just the last three years, I have woke up A LOT of pre-1970 vehicles by sanding the points and installing a battery. It is amazing how well some vehicles run on twelve-plus year old gasoline.

[orangefj45]

generation X has nothing to do with this. just because you "grew up in the electronic age" does'nt mean you have much real world experience. that you'll have to earn by putting in your time, books and the internet won't help.


you're making things a lot more complicated than they need to be. and please stop comparing apples to oranges. pointing out one benefit of a certain system does'nt mean it's superrior over another.


if the "contemporary" power steering setup most of us used was so inferrior, then how come nobody has come up with a better mouse trap? maybe it's because it works and is extremely reliable?!


tell you what. i'll take my rig with old school ps steering and you take yours with your new-fangled ideas and we'll go on a road trip to a wheeling destination, wheel the trail and drive home. and then we'll see which system holds up better.


sure, your ps system has it's place. in a 3000 pound wanabe sports car where it hardly ever has any real load applied to it and when it does, its for a very short time span. of course it all looks good on paper but in the real world, you need to take a few other things into consideration. assuming that you might actuially wheel the rig, i'm sure you've already taken into consideration that the loads and stresses put on this system are very much unlike anything it was designed for. so i assume you already have a contingency plan for dealing with the added stress, load, heat, vibration and shock,.......


anyways. prove me wrong and i'll buy you lunch.


just like steve, i'll take points over a computer controlled system anyday if my ass is on the line.


"simpleton" georg

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

At least you used the correct nomenclature.




I would wager money that if you were to park a current-era vehicle outside in the weather for 25 years and simply put a battery in it and try and start it after it had been sitting for that period of time, that you would have far more problems to address other than just sanding points and getting spark and fuel to the engine.


Over just the last three years, I have woke up A LOT of pre-1970 vehicles by sanding the points and installing a battery. It is amazing how well some vehicles run on twelve-plus year old gasoline.

Agreed, but the issue here is not how long something can sit for an extended period of time then start right up, it is how long it can run for an extended period of time under load till if fails.

[Rat70Fj]

Beat me to it Georg, thanks.

Joey, George just happens to be a gen Xer himself. Me, not so much!

[Gumby]

I'm all about computers and electronics, but not on the trail.

Thursday I'm off to diagnose a intermittent no start on a supercharged 4.7 in a FJ55. I will take thousands of dollars of test equipment and at least three sets of wiring diagrams to find what I suspect is a bad connection or bad relay. (the 4.7 uses three relays in series just to run the fuel pump) On the trail, it would just be towed home. Done for the duration of the trip. That would suck if you just trailered (or drove!) 1000 miles to get to the event.

A pump designed for a rear engine sports car to have power assist at parking lot speeds is not going to turn 36x12.5 underinflated tires when they are jammed in rocks or sunk in mud reliably for hours at a time. It's certainly not going to run a ram and hydro-boost at the same time.

It is important to be able to walk into a NAPA or even a K-Mart in bumfawk Arkasas and get parts. Not order them from England. In fact, we were very happy on our latest long trail ride to know that power steering hoses can generally be made at a tractor supply place since there were many more of those than Toyota dealers in MO. There are very few good trails near major population centers in America.

It's a cool, very complicated solution to a very simple problem that has already been solved by many, many people. It's Rube Goldberg engineering at it's best.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

generation X has nothing to do with this. just because you "grew up in the electronic age" does'nt mean you have much real world experience. that you'll have to earn by putting in your time, books and the internet won't help.


you're making things a lot more complicated than they need to be. and please stop comparing apples to oranges. pointing out one benefit of a certain system does'nt mean it's superrior over another.


if the "contemporary" power steering setup most of us used was so inferrior, then how come nobody has come up with a better mouse trap? maybe it's because it works and is extremely reliable?!


tell you what. i'll take my rig with old school ps steering and you take yours with your new-fangled ideas and we'll go on a road trip to a wheeling destination, wheel the trail and drive home. and then we'll see which system holds up better.


sure, your ps system has it's place. in a 3000 pound wanabe sports car where it hardly ever has any real load applied to it and when it does, its for a very short time span. of course it all looks good on paper but in the real world, you need to take a few other things into consideration. assuming that you might actuially wheel the rig, i'm sure you've already taken into consideration that the loads and stresses put on this system are very much unlike anything it was designed for. so i assume you already have a contingency plan for dealing with the added stress, load, heat, vibration and shock,.......


anyways. prove me wrong and i'll buy you lunch.


just like steve, i'll take points over a computer controlled system anyday if my ass is on the line.


"simpleton" georg

First off I never called or implied that you are a simpleton, it is just environment that I grew up in that allows me to be more comfortable and in tune with electronics. There is lots that I am always learning from the previous generation especially all kinds of machining and mechanical tricks that hardly anybody in my generation ever knows. It's called wisdom and it is only earned with time and experience. I have great reverence for something I don't know.

I have some "real world" experience. I have designed and built several electrical circuits and wired up several cars from the ground up custom. I have enough experience that while not 100% confident that it will work, I am almost confident it will work. I realize that there is some chance that there will be an issue, but nothing insurmountable. If I never give it a try then I will never learn then.

I am not comparing apples to oranges... both are hydraulic assisted steering gear based systems.

I never said that the "conventional" power steering was inferior. It is in fact a very reliable and it works great. What I am trying to debunk is myth (and your claim) that an electronic system is more complex, less reliable, and therefore inferior to a "conventional" mechanical system. However, it is an inescapable fact that in at least pressure, it is superior system.

You know what, rather than rehash this debate, just follow the previous thread. http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...riable-ps.html


Look if this doesn't work or dies on the trail, I still have manual steering just like a stock 40 and I am not dead in the water. If it doesn't work at all, I will gladly throw in a regular engine driven PS pump and call it quits. If I don't try, I have already failed.


PS: It took me long enough and being from Jersey I always love a good debate, but I have finally noticed that Poser loves to goad me.

[kbill45]

And this all started by a simple question from a 76 year old dumass lol