[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

The only thing that I can find so far concerning a chart of a Saginaw of GPM v. Flow rate is this little quip from post 9 at this link.

In stock form, from memory, the saginaw pump does around 1200 psi, and about .8 Gpm

Question Hydraulic Powerpack, Homemade - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop BBS


As pressure goes up GPM goes down. This is true for any pump. Granted it is from the chart for a different electric motor and pump with a lower PSI rating, but if I am understanding this correctly ( I haven't read in full the great link Marshall put up earlier to the pirate article ) at .8 GPM I should have a PSI of 1500 . So it should more preassue at the same flow rate of a Saginaw. Isn't this what I want? The flow rate will go down when it is doing work and the more preassure there is the more work is being done, no? I am not too sure about this as like I said I haven't read the whole article yet.

The flow rate is anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 for saginaw pumps depending on model. Maybe you could find two of those pumps and hook them up.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

The flow rate is anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 for saginaw pumps depending on model. Maybe you could find two of those pumps and hook them up.

Yes but at what PSI? That is why I am confused. I think you need to see both psi and gpm together to get a true understanding.

[joeyg1973]

Think I just answered my own question.


Jeep 4x4 Performance Handbook - Google Books

[Trollhole]

At 1000rpms most Saginaw pumps are putting out what the electric pump is at full throttle (full amp draw)

[joeyg1973]

I saw that already it's GPM vs RPM not pressure.

[joeyg1973]

And here is something that counters what the jeep e-book says. Post 3 from this forum.

GPM is flow rate, not pressure. The flow rate has no effect on steering assist (unless you run out of fluid).

power rack operating pressure range

What is crazy is that on the subject of flow v pressure in hydraulics that there is no definitive answer on the internet. Just opinions... and well they are just like assholes, everybody has one.

[joeyg1973]

Here is what is really annoying. Nobody gives you real numbers only sales wow numbers...

Right from an install article page at offroaders.com about installing the AGR Super Pump. It's obviously an ad in an article and here is the quote that really bothers me.

Designed to increase flow rate by 40% at 1400 rpm while providing 1500 psi available pressure. Custom ported housing reduces flow restriction, allowing pump to run stronger and cooler.

40% of what standard GPM? 1, 10, .1? That makes a huge difference. If I assume that the previous statement that a standard saginaw puts out .8 gpm at 1200 PSI and make a guess that a standard pump would be say .5 at 1500 a 40% increase only brings the GPM up .2 for a total of .7 GPM at 1500. Not really that much of an increase for the price they charge for their pumps.

[Rat70Fj]

Joey, have you ever locked your hubs?

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Rat70Fj

Joey, have you ever locked your hubs?

Har Har... I am honestly off the flame war now and trying to figure this out. Until I see the same type of gpm v pressure chart for a saginaw I still think this is feasable.

[joeyg1973]

Here is what I am thinking. Take a garden hose turn the water on full. Take an emply coffee can place it on the ground. Point the water at the side of the can and it won't go anywhere. There is a high flow (gpm) but no pressure (psi). Place your thumb over the hose end and the water flow (gpm) goes way down and the preassure (psi) goes way up and you can blast the coffee can all over the place.

Now let's fill the coffe can with water. Placing your thumb over the end and flow goes down, pressure goes up put the can fills slowly. Release you thumb and flow goes up and pressure goes down and now the can fills faster.

I am having a hard time believeing that at 1600 psi the saginaw is producing 2.5 to 3.5 psi. Just to get water which is not as dense or heavy as hydraulic to do continuous flow of 2.5 gpm at 3000 psi pressure takes a 3-5 hp motor running constantly on high with a pump that is significantly larger that any Saginaw.

Given the nature of hydraulic system it seems more likely that they are measuring max flow at no preassure. Once you have to do work in any hydraulic system, the preassure is going to go up your flow is going to go down rapidly.

[greenfox]

Thanks for the good laugh.

I could put power steering on you cruiser in one hour and it will last 30 years for about 200 bucks.
Do the math spend your time on something else.

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I would also like to point out that a mini-truck and Camaro are both significantly lighter than a 40 and yet those systems work fine.

i was wondering if anybody was going to catch this or not. i hope you realize that the factory fj40, fj45 and fj55 ps systems are virtually identical to the minitruck systems, and so is the ps pump on the fj60, fj62, fj80, fzj80,.......

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Your mom!

Originally Posted by orangefj45

and don't get personal on me. keep my mom or anybody else in my family out of this or you're gonna have to deal with the reprocussions.

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Your Mom.

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Oh and orangefj45... Your Mom.

my statement about getting personal was merely a test. one which you failed as miserably as your MR2 ps system will. i could care less what you say about my family because it's a bunch of imature crap.

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

The only thing that I can find so far concerning a chart of a Saginaw of GPM v. Flow rate is this little quip from post 9 at this link.

in the interest of keeping this thread on the technical side how about contacting some of the manufacturers who work on this stuff day in, day out?! that should net you better results than searching a bunch of forums and having to reply on third hand information for your data.

i'd start by checking out howe and psc.

best of luck. i have a cold one waiting in the fridge.

georg @ valley hybrids

[joeyg1973]

Your mom.

[greenfox]

You are faw-king retarded go away.

[hellbent40]

see that you guys ran into Know it all Joey.... not the first thread that is like this from him...

[crushr]

"Know it all Joey" - very appropriate. Here's another thread where he is equally brilliant - he starts spewing his "genius" at post #15:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...eft-proof.html

[orangefj45]

you know, most people who have an above average IQ never mention it; they let their actions and behavior speak for them. others, well.........


and joey, just because you figured out how to solder a few connections together does'nt mean jack. i set a world record that held up for 8 years with an electronic gizmo. that's when i was 20. plenty of people tried to break it but they could'nt. does that make me a genius?! nope, just means i had a decent idea and made it happen. big deal. we all have ideas. you just have to figure out which ones are worth persuing. most of yours sound pretty much ridiculous but it'd still like to see you waste your time and try them. failure is inevitable.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

The only thing that I can find so far concerning a chart of a Saginaw of GPM v. Flow rate is this little quip from post 9 at this link.

In stock form, from memory, the saginaw pump does around 1200 psi, and about .8 Gpm

Question Hydraulic Powerpack, Homemade - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop BBS


As pressure goes up GPM goes down. This is true for any pump. Granted it is from the chart for a different electric motor and pump with a lower PSI rating, but if I am understanding this correctly ( I haven't read in full the great link Marshall put up earlier to the pirate article ) at .8 GPM I should have a PSI of 1500 . So it should more preassue at the same flow rate of a Saginaw. Isn't this what I want? The flow rate will go down when it is doing work and the more preassure there is the more work is being done, no? I am not too sure about this as like I said I haven't read the whole article yet.

I am beginning to think that maximum flow rate for pumps (saginaw and otherwise) is measured at 0 pressure which would be essentially useless information. Maximum pressure at 0 GPM is also not doing any work either. Sure it can do n maximum GPM or PSI but it won't be able to do any work. Pressure and GPM need to be viewed together in a chart to get a real understanding as to what the pump can do. I think these numbers are a sales tool more than anything. Please correct me if I am wrong.

A. Stop being with the personal attacks. You want to call people names, take it to chat. You continue here, and I'll just send this entire thread to chat and let the boys there have fun with you.

B. You are expecting a Sag pump to act like an electrical pump, they don't. On a sag pump, you can increase the flow and PSI by regulating the engine speed. Sort of, That is why, if you are having trouble steering, you can give the engine more RPM's and "regain" steering. Your electrical pump runs a constant RPM correct?

Apples to oranges..

[joeyg1973]

How long is it going to take you guys to get it. Nothing here can be proven either way as nobody has numbers or facts. Someone asked about MR2 power steering, so I replied with what I know about it. The poster I am assuming is an adult and can make his own decision from there.

Everything since then as been a bunch of opinions.

You guys tend to beat down everybody that thinks different from or disagrees with you and that just isn't right. Do you really think that I am that I am so arrogant that I would put up my real IQ or is it more likely that I am goading you into making a fools outta yourselves? And since you obviously fell for it, I have a great bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell you cheap. You guys are like catching a bunch of bluefish on an umbrella rig. Takes no effort and I can catch 2 or more fish at a time.

The simple fact of the matter that the only person that put up numbers was Marshall and while it was a smaller pump than mine, it gave me pause and I even stated that it did. I respect Marshall and his word because he backs it up with facts, numbers, and research. I don't have numbers and research for my pump, but believe me, it is not from searching endless for this data. I doubt calling Toyota would get me these numbers, they don't just give out engineering specs. I could spend the time and money to set up a test bench, but it would take me just as long to do that as it would to just install the dang thing and give it a shot. Unfortunately while I do have all the parts to give it a shot, I am in a situation that prevents me from doing it right now. I have higher priorities in life than wasting time and money just to win a pointless arguement with no reward. If you can show me a chart or get me verified numbers that a Saginaw puts out 2.5 GPM at 1600 PSI, then guess what? It's no longer an opinion, it is a fact, I am wrong and you are right. But if what I can see from the chart Marshall put up and the third hand knowledge that I have been able to get from the internet, even that smaller pump puts out more GPM at a given PSI than the Saginaw. I am actually asking you to prove me wrong. If you really want to get the last word in this arguement and save me a bunch of time, effort, and money then prove me wrong. Until then, saying that it won't work "because I said so" isn't going to fly.

All that I have ever said in this thread is my opinion. My opinion is that the MR2 pump setup will work. I have even said in past threads about the MR2 pump that I have never tested this out but I plan on it. If someone else wants to try it out and be the guinea pig, be my guest, and to save you some trouble, here is all the research that I have done up to this point on it.

As far as your electronic invention in Guinness. I will believe it when I see it. Show me facts and prove me wrong, until then you are, just like me, trying to sell a bridge and I am not buying.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Mace

A. Stop being with the personal attacks. You want to call people names, take it to chat. You continue here, and I'll just send this entire thread to chat and let the boys there have fun with you.

B. You are expecting a Sag pump to act like an electrical pump, they don't. On a sag pump, you can increase the flow and PSI by regulating the engine speed. Sort of, That is why, if you are having trouble steering, you can give the engine more RPM's and "regain" steering. Your electrical pump runs a constant RPM correct?

Apples to oranges..

I apologize ahead of time about the last post, I read this one after I posted it.

I agree with you it is comparing apples to oranges, an electric motor and a gas engine operate differently and have different characteristics. However I believe that saying it is apples and oranges when comparing vehicle weights which has been pointed out by others, has no merit because you can find saginaw pumps and steering gears in very light vehicles and they work fine in heavier vehicles. I don't know what the engineering specs of the MR2 pump is, neither does anybody else here, nor do we have the same things for a Saginaw pump.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both, what I take umbrage to is flat out saying it won't work "because I said so".

To make it easier, let's say yes it does run at a constant speed. Which means that I would have full power without having to rev my engine and burn my clutch to creep slowly forward and get the required RPM to produce power out of my pump. In the Saginaw, and probably mine, you can't over rev the pump because it has a bypass to prevent it from exploding.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I agree with you it is comparing apples to oranges, an electric motor and a gas engine operate differently and have different characteristics. I want to however think that saying it is apples and oranges when comparing vehicle weights which has been pointed out by others, has no merit because you can find saginaw pumps and steering gears in very light vehicles and they work fine in heavier vehicles. I don't know what the engineering specs of the MR2 pump is, neither does anybody else here, nor do we have the same things for a Saginaw pump.

One of the reasons that the Sag pump came is a variety of vehicles was it was bolted to a Chevy small block motor. So basicaly, anything that came with a SB, could have a Sag pump on it. Having one pump for a bunch of different cars/trucks makes a heck of a lot more sense than multiple pumps and designs. Is the MR2 pump installed on anything bigger? the Sag pump is installed on lots of 1 ton trucks. And there are lots of specifications out there. Exactly which sag pump do you want them for???

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

There are advantages and disadvantages to both, what I take umbrage to is flat out saying it won't work "because I said so".

Nobody said that. They said they did not think it would work based on experiences working on these trucks.

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

To make it easier, let's say yes it does run at a constant speed. which means that I would have full power without having to rev my engine and burn my clutch to creep slowly forward and get the required RPM to produce power out of my pump. Just like mine, you can't over rev the pump because it has a bypass to prevent it from exploding.

Sort of, you have full power till resistance starts, then the motor has to work harder to overcome that resistance. With a sag pump, you are dealing with a pump that has a pressure and flow controll valve internaly, And ~ 150ish HP driving it. So if resistance occurs, you can easily idle up a bit and overcome. I have never had to "burn my clutch" to get a bit more steering. Most of the time, the clutch is disengaged anyway. Engine RPM does not equal tire RPM.

[jlbm2004]

I came across this site, thought you might like to see the specs on this pump. But you probably already saw it. Well just in case it is
http://trucksteering.trw.com/files/EVPump.pdf

Good luck, I dont know if it will work or not, I dont know much about PS, let alone EV PS.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Mace

One of the reasons that the Sag pump came is a variety of vehicles was it was bolted to a Chevy small block motor. So basicaly, anything that came with a SB, could have a Sag pump on it. Having one pump for a bunch of different cars/trucks makes a heck of a lot more sense than multiple pumps and designs. Is the MR2 pump installed on anything bigger? the Sag pump is installed on lots of 1 ton trucks. And there are lots of specifications out there. Exactly which sag pump do you want them for???



Nobody said that. They said they did not think it would work based on experiences working on these trucks.



Sort of, you have full power till resistance starts, then the motor has to work harder to overcome that resistance. With a sag pump, you are dealing with a pump that has a pressure and flow controll valve internaly, And ~ 150ish HP driving it. So if resistance occurs, you can easily idle up a bit and overcome. I have never had to "burn my clutch" to get a bit more steering. Most of the time, the clutch is disengaged anyway. Engine RPM does not equal tire RPM.

That makes good sense. I would like to see a something like what Marshall put up for that other electro-hydraulic system for both my MR2 pump and a Saginaw. I honestly don't know where to find that for my pump or even the Saginaw. The only thing I do know about my pump is that it puts out about 2000 PSI and I need to get good quality made hoses otherwise they will explode as others have had this happen in the past. I have trouble believing that the small Saginaw pump puts out 2.5-3.5 psi at pressure(1600) as is advertised by some aftermarket companies. In my head, in a hydraulic system, as PSI goes up the GPM has to come down and vice-versa. If GPM stayed constant, you would achieve the same system speed no matter what the load or PSI. It doesn't matter what is driving a any pump, if the hydraulic system calls for a GPM at a PSI or vice-versa that the pump can't acheve it will not do the work and the pump will bypass to save itself. I admit that I lack experience in hydraulic systems, but comon sense tells me that in order to pump 2.5 GPM at 1600 PSI would require a much larger pump than a Saginaw. Just look at my example of a preassure washer, in order to acheve 3.5 GPM at 3000 PSI takes a pump that is at least 3 times the size of a Saginaw and very heavy in comparison. It is pushing a lighter and thinner material that is comming from an endless cool source into it and it is usually powered by a small 3-5 hp motor with very little torque.

My mind might be stuck just like the engineers after the last shuttle accident. They couldn't see that foam could cause damage because common sense was telling them that just harmless foam.

I just can't see those numbers coming out of that tiny light pump. That is why I believe the advertised GPM numbers are at 0 PSI. It looks like marketing hype to me.

[Trollhole]

Most Saginaw pump specs are quoted at 1500 rpms. At idle your looking at maybe 1.8 gpm.

You don't really need to be concerned with PSI as much as flow. Flow is what is going to get the big tires turning.

[Pin_Head]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I have trouble believing that the small Saginaw pump puts out 2.5-3.5 psi at pressure(1600) as is advertised by some aftermarket companies. In my head, in a hydraulic system, as PSI goes up the GPM has to come down and vice-versa. If GPM stayed constant, you would achieve the same system speed no matter what the load or PSI. .

2.5-3.5 psi at pressure(1600)? You mean GPM?

I don't think you you have thought about this deeply. Hydraulic fluid is essentially non-compressible, so the pressure of a static, closed system would go up exponentially with pump displacement if the pressure wasn't regulated with a bypass valve. The volume of a typical pump goes up linearly with speed. As long as the volume of fluid being delivered does not exceed the pump output volume, the system pressure never drops below the regulated pressure and some volume is always bypassed.

[malcb]

Originally Posted by Coolerman

... Well where would we be today if someone told Edison that the light bulb would never work?

Hmmm fun thread but this is a bad example, Joesph Swan had a patent and product ahead of Edison. Edison refined the product and eventually the two of them set up a joint company, "Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company".

Swan was nowhere as commercially aware but neither of these two were the first to develop an incadaesent light.

(Why do ducking for cover smiliey?)

[Bret]

A power steering pump is a positive displacement pump correct? If so the pressure becomes secondary to the volume, as long as the force driving the pump doesn't slow down or the pump fail then it shouldn't matter so much what the pressure the pump is working against, just the flow capacity.

The hardest part I see is loading the electric to see how much it slows down. A SBC is loaded a little under load based on idle speed with turning effort, I would imagine the electric would suffer similarly if not more severe.

Just run the thing and see how long it takes to pump a pint, preferably in a vehicle, but it would give you a start.

Once I get my box back I can check a type II sag pump.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Pin_Head

2.5-3.5 psi at pressure(1600)? You mean GPM?

I don't think you you have thought about this deeply. Hydraulic fluid is essentially non-compressible, so the pressure of a static, closed system would go up exponentially with pump displacement if the pressure wasn't regulated with a bypass valve. The volume of a typical pump goes up linearly with speed. As long as the volume of fluid being delivered does not exceed the pump output volume, the system pressure never drops below the regulated pressure and some volume is always bypassed.

Yes GPM is what I meant.

AHHHH that makes sense. Good explanation! Eish... Now I am just hoping that MR2 pump comes close to at least 2 GPM in flow and I will definitely have a Saginaw on standby. I already have every thing to do my MR2 pump experiment so I might as well give it a shot.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by malcb

Hmmm fun thread but this is a bad example, Joesph Swan had a patent and product ahead of Edison. Edison refined the product and eventually the two of them set up a joint company, "Edison & Swan United Electric Light Company".

Swan was nowhere as commercially aware but neither of these two were the first to develop an incadaesent light.

(Why do ducking for cover smiliey?)

Ha! I didn't know that. Nice.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Bret

A power steering pump is a positive displacement pump correct? If so the pressure becomes secondary to the volume, as long as the force driving the pump doesn't slow down or the pump fail then it shouldn't matter so much what the pressure the pump is working against, just the flow capacity.

The hardest part I see is loading the electric to see how much it slows down. A SBC is loaded a little under load based on idle speed with turning effort, I would imagine the electric would suffer similarly if not more severe.

Just run the thing and see how long it takes to pump a pint, preferably in a vehicle, but it would give you a start.

Once I get my box back I can check a type II sag pump.

Yeah I have the pump right here in front of me, but I haven't got the hoses, battery, fluid, etc and I have bigger fish to fry like getting the motor going on the test stand. Working out in the garage on it now and it is going to take a while.