[orangefj45]

part of me wants to sign out, part of me wants to stay tuned to see what'll be spewed next.


decisions............

[Coolerman]

Concrete flywheels? Uh must have been out that day

I do remember the Mega-squirt thread...

I'm not defending his ideas, or even his method of presentation.
But to tell someone it will never work before they try... Well where would we be today if someone told Edison that the light bulb would never work?



There will be many issues with trying to get this to work. Lots of design and fabrication. Lots of fawk! What the hell was I thinking! A LOT of electrical issues to resolve.

To get your 140 amp alternator to put out more at idle, play with the pulley size to make it spin a bit faster.

Run two large capacity batteries as a large reserve for when the pump is in high. The running current may not be anywhere near 60 amps. Just like a compressor motor only pulls high amps at start up. As stated, the pump only runs at high when needed. In the rocks it will be needed a lot.

This may all be for nothing anyway if the pump can't put out the flow needed. (Never saw an answer to that question joey)
I'm reading the hydraulic post now. Good read...
All that being said, joey get your ass in gear and either succeed or fail. Your voice will have no weight here until you admit defeat after trying, or prove everyone wrong by succeeding.

Originally Posted by Trollhole

I don't know if you know the whole story but he came into the board a year and a half ago with all these ideas and telling everyone to throw away what they had and do what he did.

Only for us to find out he has never actually done any of it. At least in this thread he pointed out all this is theory.

Hey Joey, quit screwing around with 1000lb concrete flywheels spinning 10,000 rpms and talking about doing something and actually do something.


Throw out the MR2 power steering it's ****.

Karma sucks huh. lol

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by Coolerman

I'm not defending his ideas, or even his method of presentation.
But to tell someone it will never work before they try... Well where would we be today if someone told Edison that the light bulb would never work?

are'nt you taking this a little too far?

there's a vast difference between a brilliant person coming up with a concept and completely new idea and somebody taking a known working system and transposing it into a different application that it was'nt designed for and therefore mostlikely will not work properly.


back to the subject on hand. if this system was so great, then how come the major car manufacturers, including toyota, have'nt jumped on the band wagon and installed it in all their vehicles?!

i rest my case.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

are'nt you taking this a little too far?

there's a vast difference between a brilliant person coming up with a concept and completely new idea and somebody taking a known working system and transposing it into a different application that it was'nt designed for and therefore mostlikely will not work properly.

Ok fine I will pull out all the stops and just head for Jersey dickhead mook. I had to take an IQ test to get my recent job, I scored a 139. It means that I am in the top 0.5%. High IQ society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Frankly I don't put much credo in this because I know plenty of very stupid and inept smart people. So actually in fact I am a brilliant person and I am not just talking about my personality.

As far as Edison is concerned, study American history outside of a HS text book and you find out that he wasn't really a great inventor and much better at buisness, patenting, collecting royalties on patents, and suing for royalties on patents. He basically ran a sweatshop of inventors out of Menlo Park who had signed away their rights to what they invented. Tesla was the real genius and the true inventor. 99% of EVERYTHING and I do mean 99% of EVERYTHING that we know about electricity came from his theories and experiments. But we celebrate money, not intelligence in the modern USA. Anyway off my soap box.

Let me quote you here "...known working system...". You have just admitted that the system works and has been tested in the real world.

Your statement that "...transposing it into a different application that it was'nt designed for...", is obviously flawed logic. The reason being is that all steering system conversions put onto a FJ-40 including the standard saginaw (mini-truck, FJ-60, Astro-Van, Camaro, etc.) are, by your logic, doomed to fail even though in reality we know otherwise.

I would also like to point out that a mini-truck and Camaro are both significantly lighter than a 40 and yet those systems work fine.

I unfortunately have not been able to find the flow rate for an MR2 electric PS pump. I will however take the time this weekend to pump a quart of steering fluid through the one I have and time it to extrapolate the GPM. I am going to guess however that it has a GPM rate that is on par with a Saginaw. It would make no sense for Toyota to spend millions of dollars on research and production to make an electric pump powerful enough to work with the weight of one vehicle that is on the very far end of bell curve of average vehicle weight. It is however more likely that it was designed to work with slightly above average vehicle weight and they just used research and production items that they already had in their grab bag. Toyota isn't Ferrari, they don't produce a few highly specialized overpriced fragile vehicles. Toyota isn't GM either in that the bean counters are in charge and try to make everything to the minimum possible standards for as cheaply as they possibly can.

Originally Posted by orangefj45

back to the subject on hand. if this system was so great, then how come the major car manufacturers, including toyota, have'nt jumped on the band wagon and installed it in all their vehicles?!

Ummm they have jumped on the band wagon and they do install it on their vehicles... EPS is highly prevalent in Europe and Asia.

I rest MY case.

[Coolerman]

Yes, I agree we are getting a bit off topic here, so this is also my last post... But don't rest that case just yet, Toyota already uses EPS in several of it's models...

It's coming to the rest of the automotive world too. Quick search yields the following:

Electric Power Steering


Follow link for the power steering module. States it can be used for full size trucks.
Delphi Electric Steering



Electric steering is coming soon; electric power steering systems promise weight reduction, fuel savings and package flexibility, at no cost penalty | Automotive Industries | Find Articles at BNET


Everyone knows this name...
SEMA: Flaming River electric power steering

While I don't see anyone I know dropping $1000's of dollars on a steering system for our sport that provides no real improvement over the $200 junk yard solution, ya gotta admit it's cool technology. Eventually someone will scavage these EPS systems from the junk yard and put them in a Land Cruiser...

Originally Posted by orangefj45

are'nt you taking this a little too far?

there's a vast difference between a brilliant person coming up with a concept and completely new idea and somebody taking a known working system and transposing it into a different application that it wasn't designed for and therefore most likely will not work properly.


back to the subject on hand. if this system was so great, then how come the major car manufacturers, including Toyota, have'nt jumped on the band wagon and installed it in all their vehicles?!

i rest my case.

[joeyg1973]

I found an answer to the concerns regarding amp output at idle for a cs144. If I run my truck at 800 RPM idle off road, the alternator will be putting out about 90 amps. This of course is making a lot of assumptions that pulley sizes are the same as the example used on the page below, but I really don't see an issue here as I can get or make a smaller pulley, switch to led lights, add an external sensor that trips the Megasquirt to increase the idle when there is N amount of amp draw on the system, put in a potentiometer that allows me to mantually control the speed engine idle via the MS, etc, etc. Plenty of ways to solve this solution.

Flash Off-Road Install a High Output Alternator

[Poser]

Originally Posted by Coolerman

joey get your ass in gear and either succeed or fail. Your voice will have no weight here until you admit defeat after trying, or prove everyone wrong by succeeding.

Emboldened in an attempt to aid the genius.

[joeyg1973]

Sure as soon as I have the space and the time... for a while I didn't have the money and the space... but getting a new job and off unemployment has now taken care of the money and hence soon the space say around september'ish... problem now is time... ugh.. yeah yeah yeah I will get to it. My motor is on a test stand I just built and it will be up and running with all my mods in about 2-3 weeks so that will get me my cred.

[Fryedaddy]

I would have to say that this is very entertaining to say the least. I'm not sure why you want to do alot of the items you are working on. Wouldn't say "it's not possible" because people have installed jet engines in cars. I would say that this isn't a jet and I'm not sure why you would use a street car power steering pump. I'm not knocking your logic just wondering why you would use something so expensive and hard to find? Sure people have used mini truck steering and Saginaw boxes, I am one of them. The mini truck box was designed for a truck that's atleast somewhat comperable and the saginaw box would be a vast improvement to either the MR2 or Mini Truck setup so you can't say GM is skimping on anything.
Next thing the supercharger? I've never heard of anyone putting a switch on one. Again not knocking your logic but I can't even begin to fathom the genius that's going into this project. I haven't put a sh-t ton of research into the brand of supercharger but wouldn't you have to have an additional intake when it's turned off? Superchargers are designed to compress air and push it into the engine. How would the air bypass the charger and get into the engine?

Last of all as many have said why would you put so many differant parts into an offroad vehicle? I assume your going to hit the trails after its complete. What if you are 30miles from nowhere and the steering goes out? I know I would be able to locate parts for my steering and any parts store sells my GM pump over the counter.

I have no problems with any selection you are going with, if you make it work more power to ya. I'll def be the one that admires the work when finnished but when finnished I'll have prob a year or two less and half as much in mine. If you want you can check my site and criticize mine all you want.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...-4-3-4spd.html

[joeyg1973]

let's move this over to my build up thread after this... I am not going with the MB Eaton M-62 with the e-clutch anymore. I have found out that Eaton M-90 Superchargers are abundant on ford thunderbirds and lots of gm v-6 from the factory. Factory superchargers have a built in bypass that is vacuum activated. Mash on the pedal or put a load on the system and the bypass is closed and you get boost. They did this for emission and fuel economy reasons. Swap out the vacuum activation for a solonoid and you now have an on/off switch for a supercharger.

If you have to ask why, I just can't explain it to you.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

If you have to ask why, I just can't explain it to you.

If you are unwilling to explain things to people out here, I would suggest you refrain from asking any more questions.


Sharing information is what this place is about, genius.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

If you are unwilling to explain things to people out here, I would suggest you refrain from asking any more questions.


Sharing information is what this place is about, genius.

Oh stop it now... I share info, and probably too much, all the time, but honestly there are sometimes that the only answer to the question "why" is unexplainable to some people. Try explaining to someone who only drives around in a brand new beamer why you are investing so much time and money into your LC, you simply will never be able to explain it to them.

All I can tell you about why I am doing it this way is because I want to. But that isn't a proper explanation. Coolerman gets why I am doing it. Hence the phrase "If you have to ask why I can't explain it to you." You either get it or you don't.

[joeyg1973]

Oh and Poser, your use of "genius" in your last 2 posts, is... what was that term you used... "Too predictable"

[Coolerman]

My dog officially left this fight many posts ago... I was only protesting the group telling someone they shouldn't try something. Nothing more...

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Oh and Poser, your use of "genius" in your last 2 posts, is... what was that term you used... "Too predictable"

It is the lable you gave yourself, genius.

Or do you not recall that?

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

It is the lable you gave yourself, genius.

Or do you not recall that?

Nope never called myself genius nor did anything in that post even suggest that I was a genius. Read more carefully.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Nope never called myself genius nor did anything in that post even suggest that I was a genius. Read more carefully.

Oh, ok mensa boy....

[3doghouse]

Originally Posted by Coolerman

While I like KISS, (and practise in my own industrial/automotive electrical work), I really don't understand why folks are so against what joey is trying to do. What follows are examples of the same thing, applying new technology to old stuff, just different applications...

Agreed... as long as they actually APPLY the technology they are promoting, and prove that it works, your point is sound.

There's always value in bouncing a new idea off of experts, but it is rude at best to say an unproven idea has more merit than a tried-and-true approach.

[orangefj45]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Ok fine I will pull out all the stops and just head for Jersey dickhead mook. I had to take an IQ test to get my recent job, I scored a 139. It means that I am in the top 0.5%. High IQ society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Frankly I don't put much credo in this because I know plenty of very stupid and inept smart people. So actually in fact I am a brilliant person and I am not just talking about my personality.

As far as Edison is concerned, study American history outside of a HS text book and you find out that he wasn't really a great inventor and much better at buisness, patenting, collecting royalties on patents, and suing for royalties on patents. He basically ran a sweatshop of inventors out of Menlo Park who had signed away their rights to what they invented. Tesla was the real genius and the true inventor. 99% of EVERYTHING and I do mean 99% of EVERYTHING that we know about electricity came from his theories and experiments. But we celebrate money, not intelligence in the modern USA. Anyway off my soap box.

Let me quote you here "...known working system...". You have just admitted that the system works and has been tested in the real world.

Your statement that "...transposing it into a different application that it was'nt designed for...", is obviously flawed logic. The reason being is that all steering system conversions put onto a FJ-40 including the standard saginaw (mini-truck, FJ-60, Astro-Van, Camaro, etc.) are, by your logic, doomed to fail even though in reality we know otherwise.

I would also like to point out that a mini-truck and Camaro are both significantly lighter than a 40 and yet those systems work fine.

I unfortunately have not been able to find the flow rate for an MR2 electric PS pump. I will however take the time this weekend to pump a quart of steering fluid through the one I have and time it to extrapolate the GPM. I am going to guess however that it has a GPM rate that is on par with a Saginaw. It would make no sense for Toyota to spend millions of dollars on research and production to make an electric pump powerful enough to work with the weight of one vehicle that is on the very far end of bell curve of average vehicle weight. It is however more likely that it was designed to work with slightly above average vehicle weight and they just used research and production items that they already had in their grab bag. Toyota isn't Ferrari, they don't produce a few highly specialized overpriced fragile vehicles. Toyota isn't GM either in that the bean counters are in charge and try to make everything to the minimum possible standards for as cheaply as they possibly can.



Ummm they have jumped on the band wagon and they do install it on their vehicles... EPS is highly prevalent in Europe and Asia.

I rest MY case.

i'm having a very difficult time deciding weather you or mickey rubithon should get the honorary wetzel award on mud. maybe we should post a poll......

but i'll try to elevate my basic thining to your level and offer this retort:

1) your IQ has precious little to do with anything off-road related since you obviously lack experience in this field. and that's what's required here; either experience or the willingness to learn from others, thereby gaining knowledge and wisdom ( unlike your earlier definition of wisdom ).

2) good for edison, too bad for tesla; it's "the american way". you're neither an edison nor a telsa.

3) sure it's a "working system" in a lightweight sports car with absolutely no load on the steering since there's no weight on it whatsoever, compared to the application you're thinking about running this in.

4) "...transposing it into a different application that it was'nt designed for..." how is that flawed logic. somebody came up with the idea of putting a known working steering system out of a full size gm passenger vehicle/truck and installed it into a cruiser. if you're so intelligent, then you already know that many of these vehicles weigh just as much if not more than a cruiser. so they're designed to handle the loads and stresses they'll be subjected to in an fj40, unlike your lightweight system.

5) minitrucks and camaros? who has ever seen a sag box in a minitruck? sure, lots of people install minitruck pumps and boxes in 40s but we all know that they're only good up to a certain tire size before they reach the upper echelon of their abilities at which point you have to step up to sag style steering hydraulics.
camaros use the same basic steering components as any full size gm passenger car from that era along with all trucks and SUVs. so those systems were designed to handle the applications properly.

6) toyota-ferrari-gm
do you work for any of these companies or is all this hear-say?!

7) eps in europe and asis
and what kind of vehicles are we talking about here? apples and oranges again. seems to be a common theme when you attempt to defend the logic behind your project.

if you want to be taken serious around here, then you need to back up your tall claims and stop posting mis-information as well as strating from the subject matter. answering some of the questions asked of you might help yopur cause as well. but then again, you're in the top .05% so you knew all that already, you just decided to keep dishing out your own brand of shit-pudding instead.

i definetly hope that you do complete this project, especially after all this internet drama. if it works, then i'll be happy for ya. if not, i'll sit here and enjoy a cold beverage along with a chuckle.


last but not least, keep in mind that winning an argument on the net is like winning a race at the special olympics.


georg

[orangefj45]

1) how much does an MR2 weigh?

2) what's the average front tire size on an MR2? heigth and width please.

3) what's the weight bias front to rear on an MR2?

4) how much does an fj40 weigh?

5) what size tires are on your fj40? heigth and width please.

6) what's the weight bias front to rear on an fj40?

and please try not to go off on one of your tangents, just answer the questions at hand.
much appreciated!

georg @ valley hybrids

[Rat70Fj]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

2) good for edison, too bad for tesla; it's "the american way". you're neither an edison nor a telsa.

:

But Tesla ROCKS, dude!

[orangefj45]

20 years ago, maybe. but just like most aging hair-bands, they nowadays officially SUCK!

brings an old saying to mind:"when the horse is dead, you gotta get off".

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by orangefj45

last but not least, keep in mind that winning an argument on the net is like winning a race at the special olympics.

The only thing I agree with you on.

Neither of us is going to convince the other that they are right or wrong. I still believe that there is a very good chance that this will work. What I don't like or understand is the way people on this forum try to stifle any new thoughts or ideas.

I do however know what your reasoning behind trying to shoot this idea down is Edison.

bill dorry style ps brackets for sale:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/merchandise-...ml#post4481037

My final response to you is what is actually best for an flame war.

Your mom!

[orangefj45]

sure i sell the bill dorry style brackets, i also sell the sag ps plates. so those are two conflicting ideas, are'nt they? wonder why?! because they both have their place. big difference between myself and edison is that i don't run a sweat shop and i bought bills design for his asking price.


since you think the ps setup from an MR2 is so great for a 40, then why don't you install the entire transaxle assembly in your cruiser as well. just think, you could have the better ride qualities of the irs, better handling and you'll save weight. hmmm, i might be onto something here.......


and don't get personal on me. keep my mom or anybody else in my family out of this or you're gonna have to deal with the reprocussions.


how did i know you were'nt going to answer a few simple questions?

[joeyg1973]

Fine you win you're the man.

Your Mom.

[Trollhole]

Conversions suck. My small pea brain hurts.



About what I thought.

[joeyg1973]

Where did you get this from? I am interested in reading the whole web page. If this is the case... then it won't work. Simple as that.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Where did you get this from?

It was as close as I could find. If your pump goes up to 2000psi then I would assume it is a little better. But you can see there is just not enough HP in an electric motor of that size to keep the flow up.

http://eb-cat.ds-navi.co.jp/enu/tech...5e/165e_17.pdf

[joeyg1973]

It's a good catch, but it isn't the same pump and motor. It does however make me think twice about this. Can't argue with numbers. My motor and pump has brushes and it is freakin huge. I wish they had specs on the physical dimensions of it, but I have a feeling that it is sugnificantly smaller. I thought of something if this winds up being close to mine... Just drive the Saginaw pump off the electric motor from the MR2.

Got a chart like this for the smaller Saginaw pump? GPM over preasure? Be curious to see how that pans out. I still have hope that the MR2 pump is gonna come in at around 2.5 GPM.

Like I said, if it doesn't work I will just dump it, but if I don't try I have already failed. I like to experiment and try new things, even if it fails I have learned a whole lot.

Good Job Marshall.

Oh and orangefj45... Your Mom.

[joeyg1973]

The only thing that I can find so far concerning a chart of a Saginaw of GPM v. Flow rate is this little quip from post 9 at this link.

In stock form, from memory, the saginaw pump does around 1200 psi, and about .8 Gpm

Question Hydraulic Powerpack, Homemade - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop BBS


As pressure goes up GPM goes down. This is true for any pump. Granted it is from the chart for a different electric motor and pump with a lower PSI rating, but if I am understanding this correctly ( I haven't read in full the great link Marshall put up earlier to the pirate article ) at .8 GPM I should have a PSI of 1500 . So it should more preassue at the same flow rate of a Saginaw. Isn't this what I want? The flow rate will go down when it is doing work and the more preassure there is the more work is being done, no? I am not too sure about this as like I said I haven't read the whole article yet.

I am beginning to think that maximum flow rate for pumps (saginaw and otherwise) is measured at 0 pressure which would be essentially useless information. Maximum pressure at 0 GPM is also not doing any work either. Sure it can do n maximum GPM or PSI but it won't be able to do any work. Pressure and GPM need to be viewed together in a chart to get a real understanding as to what the pump can do. I think these numbers are a sales tool more than anything. Please correct me if I am wrong.