[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Rat70Fj

Beat me to it Georg, thanks.

Joey, George just happens to be a gen Xer himself. Me, not so much!

Well then I would like to quote Roman Maroni on this then:

Roman Moroni: I would like to direct this to the distinguished members of the panel: You lousy cork-soakers. You have violated my farging rights. Dis somanumbatching country was founded so that the liberties of common patriotic citizens like me could not be taken away by a bunch of fargin iceholes... like yourselves.

[Trollhole]

It's an interesting concept. Has been done before. But for a vehicle with a gas motor in it it doesn't seem to be the best solution. I wish you luck though. Just seems like a lot of power to be sucking out of the alternator all the time.

DriveEV.com: JeepEV - Jeep Cherokee EV conversion

[joeyg1973]

It's not all the time, I have a 140 amp alternator, the pump will only draw 60 amps at the very instant it starts up. As long as there is no load on the motor, it won't draw any amps. Once there is a load it will, but it would literally have to come to a complete dead stop to draw 60 amps... The most I can see it drawing is 50 in very short short bursts.

[Trollhole]

I think you will find out in short order the amount of flow your going to have is tiny. So it may turn big tires it is just gonna do it really really slow.

Usually used in Minis, MR. 2's, and Fiero's. Can you see the common denominator?

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Agreed, but the issue here is not how long something can sit for an extended period of time then start right up, it is how long it can run for an extended period of time under load till if fails.

I will take a belt drive saginaw pump over the allegedly longer lasting electrically driven novelty pump, thanks.












Finish building your junk and get it into service for a while before expounding on the inherent reliability virtues of your unproven system.

[Coolerman]

While I like KISS, (and practise in my own industrial/automotive electrical work), I really don't understand why folks are so against what joey is trying to do. What follows are examples of the same thing, applying new technology to old stuff, just different applications.

A lot of hard core off roaders put in computer controlled, fuel injected engines with all the electronic sensors. If the computer fails on it, you will be 100% stranded on the trail. Yet I don't see folks telling them they should not do this? (Well maybe the purist... )

Why do they do it? Because the technology is mature, is superior and above all is reliable.

Fuel injecting a tractor motor... Hmmmm Adding all kinds of electronics that could fail on the trail there. Hard to set up and PROGRAM. All kinds of electronic technical knowledge needed just to do it. Carbs are so much simpler, and can be fixed on the trail much easier so why bother complicating things?

Why? Because the technology is mature, is superior and above all is reliable.

Electric thermo controlled cooling fans? Wow! Another electric motor that can go out... and leave you stranded on the trail... Personally i agree with this one...

However if properly sized and wired correctly they will last a lifetime. Almost EVERY vehicle on the road today has one...

LED lighting? High tech stuff folks, better not try that either...

Oh wait LEDS have a MTBF of 100,000 hours (11 + years!) Bulbs not so much...

Someone on here put a JAG motor in a Cruiser.... Why? Because he had it and had the ability to do it...

Seems like I remember folks telling a certain Aussie that his turbo'ed 2FE was a waste of time and money and would never hold up to competition. Sure he could drop in a crate motor for half the price and have more power/reliability, but it was the CHALLANGE of doing it and keeping it mostly Toyota! So far he has had a few kinks to work out, but it survived the first year of competition. We all get a kick out of reading about it! It's exciting! It's also one of the most read pages on MUD...

ALL the automotive companies have spent millions and millions of dollars in research to ensure that these new electronic controlled systems will work reliably for years. I can imagine the lawyers telling the engineers " If it's not 100% reliable we can't put it on our cars. Too much liability." Same for ABS or airbags. The Toyota MR2 power steering system is no different. Sure it was not designed to handle the weight of a 4000 lb+ truck with 38's but I bet it won't fail, it just possibly will not be able to do the job. It probably has monitoring that will stop it from harming itself if overloaded...

I bet some folks in the early days tried some power steering stuff from other vehicles that never worked either...

Hell bells, ENCOURAGE this sort of thinking! So what if it fails to hold up under hard core wheeling? Lesson learned right? Find a larger electric pump system from something else and try that.

It's the journey that makes farting around with these old trucks fun.

You know what our grand children will be putting in these trucks?

HUD's with terrain scanning radar to find the best route over an obstacle on the Rubicon without hitting anything ...

The engines will be 4 cylinder somethings directly coupled to a large alternator that drives electric motors in the wheels completely eliminating the tranny/transfer/drive shaft/axle/starter.

Electric shocks/lifts, that coupled to the terrain scanning radar will automatically raise and lower the truck as needed to clear an obstacle.

Software that when used in conjunction with the radar map will control each wheel to provide the ultimate in traction control to get over an obstacle.

Tires that don't use air and that can change their tread design/tread compound via molecular structure manipulation to best suit the terrain under each tire at any instant.

Yeah... I like sci-fi

Go for it joey, I look forward to reading about this truck and all it's "complicated" stuff. One thing is for sure it WILL be talked about on MUD.

[Mr. Toad]

X2 on Coolerman.

It seems a prevailing mod justification is: "That's how [someone else] did it to his cruiser." For most mods, that's not bad advice, but there are some common mods that don't make a lot of sense. (shackle reversal anyone, er, everyone?)

Innovation is good. If it fails, so what? Isn't that how we learn?

[joeyg1973]

Like I said if I don't try I have already failed.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

Finish building your junk and get it into service for a while before expounding on the inherent reliability virtues of your unproven system.

Funny whenever my 2 1/2 year old niece see's my garage she says "That's Uncle Joey's junk. Ohhh cool!"

...and now let the catholic priest/MJ/child molester jokes ensue.


This thread so totally got hijacked!

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by Coolerman

While I like KISS, (and practise in my own industrial/automotive electrical work), I really don't understand why folks are so against what joey is trying to do. What follows are examples of the same thing, applying new technology to old stuff, just different applications.

A lot of hard core off roaders put in computer controlled, fuel injected engines with all the electronic sensors. If the computer fails on it, you will be 100% stranded on the trail. Yet I don't see folks telling them they should not do this? (Well maybe the purist... )

Why do they do it? Because the technology is mature, is superior and above all is reliable.

Fuel injecting a tractor motor... Hmmmm Adding all kinds of electronics that could fail on the trail there. Hard to set up and PROGRAM. All kinds of electronic technical knowledge needed just to do it. Carbs are so much simpler, and can be fixed on the trail much easier so why bother complicating things?

Why? Because the technology is mature, is superior and above all is reliable.

Electric thermo controlled cooling fans? Wow! Another electric motor that can go out... and leave you stranded on the trail... Personally i agree with this one...

However if properly sized and wired correctly they will last a lifetime. Almost EVERY vehicle on the road today has one...

LED lighting? High tech stuff folks, better not try that either...

Oh wait LEDS have a MTBF of 100,000 hours (11 + years!) Bulbs not so much...

Someone on here put a JAG motor in a Cruiser.... Why? Because he had it and had the ability to do it...

Seems like I remember folks telling a certain Aussie that his turbo'ed 2FE was a waste of time and money and would never hold up to competition. Sure he could drop in a crate motor for half the price and have more power/reliability, but it was the CHALLANGE of doing it and keeping it mostly Toyota! So far he has had a few kinks to work out, but it survived the first year of competition. We all get a kick out of reading about it! It's exciting! It's also one of the most read pages on MUD...

ALL the automotive companies have spent millions and millions of dollars in research to ensure that these new electronic controlled systems will work reliably for years. I can imagine the lawyers telling the engineers " If it's not 100% reliable we can't put it on our cars. Too much liability." Same for ABS or airbags. The Toyota MR2 power steering system is no different. Sure it was not designed to handle the weight of a 4000 lb+ truck with 38's but I bet it won't fail, it just possibly will not be able to do the job. It probably has monitoring that will stop it from harming itself if overloaded...

I bet some folks in the early days tried some power steering stuff from other vehicles that never worked either...

Hell bells, ENCOURAGE this sort of thinking! So what if it fails to hold up under hard core wheeling? Lesson learned right? Find a larger electric pump system from something else and try that.

It's the journey that makes farting around with these old trucks fun.

You know what our grand children will be putting in these trucks?

HUD's with terrain scanning radar to find the best route over an obstacle on the Rubicon without hitting anything ...

The engines will be 4 cylinder somethings directly coupled to a large alternator that drives electric motors in the wheels completely eliminating the tranny/transfer/drive shaft/axle/starter.

Electric shocks/lifts, that coupled to the terrain scanning radar will automatically raise and lower the truck as needed to clear an obstacle.

Software that when used in conjunction with the radar map will control each wheel to provide the ultimate in traction control to get over an obstacle.

Tires that don't use air and that can change their tread design/tread compound via molecular structure manipulation to best suit the terrain under each tire at any instant.

Yeah... I like sci-fi

Go for it joey, I look forward to reading about this truck and all it's "complicated" stuff. One thing is for sure it WILL be talked about on MUD.

I don't know if you know the whole story but he came into the board a year and a half ago with all these ideas and telling everyone to throw away what they had and do what he did.

Only for us to find out he has never actually done any of it. At least in this thread he pointed out all this is theory.

Hey Joey, quit screwing around with 1000lb concrete flywheels spinning 10,000 rpms and talking about doing something and actually do something.


Throw out the MR2 power steering it's ****.

Karma sucks huh. lol

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

I think you will find out in short order the amount of flow your going to have is tiny. So it may turn big tires it is just gonna do it really really slow.

Usually used in Minis, MR. 2's, and Fiero's. Can you see the common denominator?

What is the flow rate of a saginaw pump?

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

What is the flow rate of a saginaw pump?

P style is around 2.5-3.5 TC style is 2.4-2.8. Both are around 1400-1500 PSI

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

I don't know if you know the whole story but he came into the board a year and a half ago with all these ideas and telling everyone to throw away what they had and do what he did.

Only for us to find out he has never actually done any of it. At least in this thread he pointed out all this is theory.

Hey Joey, quit screwing around with 1000lb concrete flywheels spinning 10,000 rpms and talking about doing something and actually do something.


Throw out the MR2 power steering it's ****.

Karma sucks huh. lol

Yeah I will eat crow on that, I am too used to dealing with IT geeks all day and my decorum was not proper for the luddites.

And to properly tell the back story, from reading the progress of your big gay 2f thread, I merely suggested that you look at the Megasquirt2. I said that you would eventually want to do much more than the GM computer was going to let you do without spending the same amount of money customizing it as your would on a Megasquirt2 which already had it built in. And well I was right.

Thank you for the Ying. Now, to show my gratitude here is my Yang for you to suck on you big gay bastage.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

P style is around 2.5-3.5 TC style is 2.4-2.8. Both are around 1400-1500 PSI

I am assuming this is GPM correct?

[Trollhole]

So what is the flow rate of an unladen MR2 power steering pump?



European MR2 of course.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

I am assuming this is GPM correct?

Oh I have an article right up your computer alley. Go to page two if your not willing to read it all. Great read though.

Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

So what is the flow rate of an unladen MR2 power steering pump?



European MR2 of course.

ROTFL!!!

Seriously if coolerman, you, poser, armuer, and a few others every get together for a few drinks it will be the funniest, rowdiest, loudest argument... *cough cough* I mean conversation ever.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Oh I have an article right up your computer alley. Go to page two if your not willing to read it all. Great read though.

Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive

Cool I need something to read... I finished all my work that I have till Friday to get done so I need to look busy. If I told them I was done already I would be setting the expectations WAY too high since I just started this job.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Cool I need something to read... I finished all my work that I have till Friday to get done so I need to look busy. If I told them I was done already I would be setting the expectations WAY too high since I just started this job.

Actually scratch that I have ADD and I am a sound bite child that's almost as long as war and peace.... hey is that a squirrel over there???...

[joeyg1973]

BTW I just realized that some of you may be thinking that I am going with a FULL hydrostatic steering system.... no no no the electric pump is hooked up to a scout II steering gear. So it is only hydro assisted power steering.

[Rat70Fj]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Look if this doesn't work or dies on the trail, I still have manual steering just like a stock 40 and I am not dead in the water. If it doesn't work at all, I will gladly throw in a regular engine driven PS pump and call it quits. :

Apparently you've never tried to steer a power steering box without power. It's far from just being non-power.

Also something to ponder, how much power is your 140 amp alternator putting out as you plod through the rocks at idle? Electric fans are notorious for running down e-systems while operating at low speed when they're needed most, kinda like your power steering will be needed most while your running slow and grinding through rocks. Cranking the bumpin' stereo with the rock, head and driving lights on all the while that big alternator is putting out 40 amps (guess)cause it's not turning fast enough to put out spec.

[joeyg1973]

Nope, I have, in my old 40 with a Scout II steering gear. My belt driven 1 month old NAPA refurbished Saginaw pump failed. Apparently not only are you a Luddite, you also have arms like Olive Oil.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

BTW I just realized that some of you may be thinking that I am going with a FULL hydrostatic steering system....

Bottle jacks are hydrostatic. (fluids at rest)


Steering systems, just like drive systems on equipment are hydrodynamic. (fluids in motion)

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

Bottle jacks are hydrostatic. (fluids at rest)


Steering systems, just like drive systems on equipment are hydrodynamic. (fluids in motion)

Hydrostatic, hydrodynamic, hydromatic... you know what I meant. Stop goading.

[Rat70Fj]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Nope, I have, in my old 40 with a Scout II steering gear. My belt driven 1 month old NAPA refurbished Saginaw pump failed. Apparently not only are you a Luddite, you also have arms like Olive Oil.

Spend much time in the rocks with a pump out?

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Rat70Fj

Also something to ponder, how much power is your 140 amp alternator putting out as you plod through the rocks at idle? Electric fans are notorious for running down e-systems while operating at low speed when they're needed most, kinda like your power steering will be needed most while your running slow and grinding through rocks. Cranking the bumpin' stereo with the rock, head and driving lights on all the while that big alternator is putting out 40 amps (guess)cause it's not turning fast enough to put out spec.

Yeap that might be an issue... if it is, I will get an alternator designed to put out a larger percentage of amps at idle speed, or change the pulleys, or think of something. I will worry about that when and if it becomes an issue.

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Rat70Fj

Spend much time in the rocks with a pump out?

Yes yes I have... ever drive around a 20 year old hustler(single axle tractor trailer with a hydraulic 5th wheel for moving container trailers around a yard) with blown power steering for 12 hours straight and still expected to keep up with everybody else?

You do what you got to do sometimes.

[Poser]

Originally Posted by joeyg1973

Hydrostatic, hydrodynamic, hydromatic... you know what I meant. Stop goading.

I only try to comprehend what you put in text.....

[joeyg1973]

Originally Posted by Poser

I only try to comprehend what you put in text.....

Word Nerd.

[Poser]

Too predictable....