Argh - HOA is at it (for the first time)...

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by Mr. Toad

The legal fees were likely expended to draft revised covenants (the ones that you're voting on) that are unquestionably legally enforceable.

The present unanimity requirement explains why they want to treat silence as a 'yes' vote . . .

And like someone already said, one 'no' vote and there are no new covenants.

New covenants were approved by the Board in 2003 and the 'legal fees' in the financial summary were in 2007.

[Mr. Toad]

Originally Posted by eventhough

New covenants were approved by the Board in 2003 and the 'legal fees' in the financial summary were in 2007.

I was talking about the ones they want you to vote on now.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by Mr. Toad

I was talking about the ones they want you to vote on now.

Those are the same ones. The original/current and legal covenants were put in place in 1989. In 2003 covenants were drafted and approved by the HOA Board but never legally filed - I'm guessing because the HOA Board could not get a unanimous vote. The HOA Board now wants for us to vote again on the 2003 covenants with the stipulation that if you don't show your vote will count as yes. Sorry for the confusion.

[PabloCruise]

Ask for minutes from the last meeting.

Ask for a copy of the latest financials and determine what is in reserve for the fence.

Read your covenants to determine how capital expenditures are passed and financed. Also, how are exisitng covenants modified.

Most HOA's I know are obligated to send out proxies so you can vote in absentia.

Kepp your lawyer friend current on this crap...

[Brian in Oregon]

You can't spell HOA without ho.

I will never live in an HOA. I don't need some bored vicious busybody housewives and their fascist intolerant husbands doing their best impersonation of Soviet commissars running my life. I'd rather live next door to Junky Jack's than in an HOA.

[Bob_Garrett]

Originally Posted by eventhough

- Small satellite dishes (such as Direct TV) are allowed if they are less than 2' in diameter.

-

They need to change that covenant to comply with Federal rules.

The FCC rules pre-empt restrictions on any satellite antenna up to 1 meter (39") in diameter. It also allows for broadcast TV antennas.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by PabloCruise

Ask for minutes from the last meeting.

Ask for a copy of the latest financials and determine what is in reserve for the fence.

Read your covenants to determine how capital expenditures are passed and financed. Also, how are exisitng covenants modified.

Most HOA's I know are obligated to send out proxies so you can vote in absentia.

Kepp your lawyer friend current on this crap...

I have the financials from last year and there appears to not be any (at least significant) money in reserve for the fence.

There is nothing in the current covenants regarding capital expenditures.

There also is nothing in the current covenants about sending out proxies for absenty voting.

Originally Posted by Bob_Garrett

They need to change that covenant to comply with Federal rules.

The FCC rules pre-empt restrictions on any satellite antenna up to 1 meter (39") in diameter. It also allows for broadcast TV antennas.

Ahh, good to know.

[dealmaker]

sounds like your HOA is tired of being self-managed. Being on an HOA board is one of the most thankless jobs there is. Whoever was doing the gathering of bids, overseeing maintenance, etc. is prolly sick of it. At that point, the only option, other than finding another owner to take his place, is to hire a prop. management firm. Also, your CCR's are probably generic and not "customized" for your SD. After a few years, its a very good idea to revise the CCR's to be in tune with the SD.

As for the in-home day-cares and baby-sitting, your tune would quickly change when it becomes a half-way house for problem teens. Who the f wants to live next to that. And if the HOA starts a precedence by allowing day-care or baby-sitting but not the a home for runaways, they're setting themselves up for a lawsuit. Remember, lawyers don't care whether you win or lose...they'll get paid either way and believe you me, they'll run their bill well into the $100k's before things are said and done.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by dealmaker

sounds like your HOA is tired of being self-managed. Being on an HOA board is one of the most thankless jobs there is. Whoever was doing the gathering of bids, overseeing maintenance, etc. is prolly sick of it. At that point, the only option, other than finding another owner to take his place, is to hire a prop. management firm. Also, your CCR's are probably generic and not "customized" for your SD. After a few years, its a very good idea to revise the CCR's to be in tune with the SD.

I understand that but my rebuttal is I have offered my help to the HOA (twice I think) without any response. We have not had one HOA meeting in two and a half years (since I have lived in the subdivision) nor have I had any contact from the HOA to include memo, phone call, friendly chat at the mailbox, etc...nothing. I've already gathered enough help to replace the entryway fence which should save the HOA a ton of labor charge but the HOA hasn't asked for any internal help with fence replacement as far as I or anyone I have spoken with can tell.

From how I see it the HOA hasn't done much of anything over the past two and a half years and now this??? Our subdivision is so small we don't need a Property Management Group. Also, the rewritten covenants are not horrible and I would vote for them with a few fairly minor changes - maybe just one. The BIG catch is the HOA Board is trying to shove the covenants down our throats with their idea that "if you don't show your vote will count as a Yes." To me that is a load and out of principle I will see that the new covenants don't pass until a fair vote is allowed.

Some might think that this is just a measly HOA vote and it is not a big deal - well - any vote should be taken at least fairly seriously. Everyone should have equal representation. I used to travel for weeks at a time on business and not come home - sometimes for three or more weeks. If I came home from a business trip and found that the HOA had adopted new covenants and I had voted 'yes' because I had not been present I would be just a little bit .

[dealmaker]

No meetings in 2.5 yrs? Is there anything in the by-Laws or CCR's that calls for regular meetings, minutes from any meetings or board decisions, or that dictates other HOA meeting and board membership policy? How do you elect a new board w/o meetings? Is the sub-division sold out, or is the developer still in charge? I'd suggest finding a few like-minded owners who want to be hands-on like yourself, and try to gain control of the board. Sounds like the HOA is not doing an effective job of representing the owners if they aren't even communicating with them.

Originally Posted by eventhough

I understand that but my rebuttal is I have offered my help to the HOA (twice I think) without any response. We have not had one HOA meeting in two and a half years (since I have lived in the subdivision) nor have I had any contact from the HOA to include memo, phone call, friendly chat at the mailbox, etc...nothing. I've already gathered enough help to replace the entryway fence which should save the HOA a ton of labor charge but the HOA hasn't asked for any internal help with fence replacement as far as I or anyone I have spoken with can tell.

From how I see it the HOA hasn't done much of anything over the past two and a half years and now this??? Our subdivision is so small we don't need a Property Management Group. Also, the rewritten covenants are not horrible and I would vote for them with a few fairly minor changes - maybe just one. The BIG catch is the HOA Board is trying to shove the covenants down our throats with their idea that "if you don't show your vote will count as a Yes." To me that is a load and out of principle I will see that the new covenants don't pass until a fair vote is allowed.

Some might think that this is just a measly HOA vote and it is not a big deal - well - any vote should be taken at least fairly seriously. Everyone should have equal representation. I used to travel for weeks at a time on business and not come home - sometimes for three or more weeks. If I came home from a business trip and found that the HOA had adopted new covenants and I had voted 'yes' because I had not been present I would be just a little bit .

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by dealmaker

No meetings in 2.5 yrs? Is there anything in the by-Laws or CCR's that calls for regular meetings, minutes from any meetings or board decisions, or that dictates other HOA meeting and board membership policy? How do you elect a new board w/o meetings? Is the sub-division sold out, or is the developer still in charge? I'd suggest finding a few like-minded owners who want to be hands-on like yourself, and try to gain control of the board. Sounds like the HOA is not doing an effective job of representing the owners if they aren't even communicating with them.

Yup - no meetings that I or any of my neighbors were made aware of in 2.5 years.

There is nothing in the covenants regarding meetings, minutes, board membership policy, etc.

There was a meeting on June 12 that I missed (it was my B-day ) and I believe they nominated board officers then.

The HOA is definitely doing a very poor job of communicating with residents. A simple quarterly 1-page memo to residents would be great. We get nothing.

I'm in the process of talking to my immediate neighbors about my concerns. One is already on my side and going to the meeting with me. Most of my neighbors (at least the ones that will give a darn) are busy like me so it is difficult to catch them at home sometimes. Hopefully I'll have another couple in the boat with me before the upcoming HOA meeting.

I really don't have time to be on another Board, or involved with another organization. My spare time is getting harder and harder to come by but this HOA is getting to the point where I feel like sticking my head in and trying to get nominated. If I put my name in the hat at the next meeting I probably won't get elected and a 'defeat' wouldn't look good for my 'cause' LOL. I could go door-to-door before the meeting and probably get elected but I definitely don't have time for that. Simply holding up the new covenants with one (or a couple) dissenting votes will probably get done what needs to be done. We will see.

[trainrech]

Did anyone catch the rule about "old" cars? Define "old"... You could have a heyday with this rule.

The other word to toss around is "taking". More restrictive rules on your property could result in a "taking" or negative financial impact to your property.

edit: What type of notice is being given out of the meeting to change the by-laws? Is it a public notice, certified letter, etc.? What proof do they have that the notices were properly delivered? Everything we do is certified mail within 200' of said property being considered for reclassification, and in the paper for the public in general outside of that zone.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by trainrech

Did anyone catch the rule about "old" cars? Define "old"... You could have a heyday with this rule.

The other word to toss around is "taking". More restrictive rules on your property could result in a "taking" or negative financial impact to your property.

edit: What type of notice is being given out of the meeting to change the by-laws? Is it a public notice, certified letter, etc.? What proof do they have that the notices were properly delivered? Everything we do is certified mail within 200' of said property being considered for reclassification, and in the paper for the public in general outside of that zone.

The old/current covenants are very subjective in several areas which would leave a good bit up to interpretation. Depending on who was on the Board they could consider my Pig 'old' and 'noxious' but she is not. You don't see any rust on the outside, she has been paint (albeit rattle can), and doesn't have any huge dents (I'm working on that one) - she is just SOA w/ 35's so she is the biggest truck in the subdivision.

I am fully aware of the 'takings' provision. I am a City/Regional Planner by training. You could definitely bring up that argument but it doesn't hold too much water with mild HOA covenants - BUT - if one did move into the SD like I did with less restrictive covenants and then more restrictive covenants were passed improperly then it could be argued as a takings but there would be a good counter argument that home prices were being preserved even though there aren't enough 'bad' properties to use this...I could ramble on and on about takings forever...

Notice for the upcoming HOA meeting was a memo placed either inside your mailbox (a crime) or between the mailbox and red flag. These could easily be blown away or lost...no certified letters.

The more I talk about this on MUD and to neighbors the less I worry. I have some sound arguments to make and if the HOA Board approves the covenants over my dissenting vote then I will retain counsel and sue = checkmate.

[Rookie2]

Originally Posted by eventhough

The HOA is definitely doing a very poor job of communicating with residents. A simple quarterly 1-page memo to residents would be great. We get nothing.

Sometimes with HOA's you get what you pay for. You need prof. management, or someone that is willing to step in and take over, who will keep it organized and make sure proper communication, correspondance is being provided to all neighbors.

We do the quarterly 1-page memo. 90% of home-owners ignore, half-read, or round file it. If there's something in there that they need to know (like the new combination to the pool lock), they get that.. but if it's something they don't want to hear like an increase in dues or clean up after your dog, they never got it.

It sounds like you're doing the right thing, which is to get involved.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by Rookie2

Sometimes with HOA's you get what you pay for. You need prof. management, or someone that is willing to step in and take over, who will keep it organized and make sure proper communication, correspondance is being provided to all neighbors.

We do the quarterly 1-page memo. 90% of home-owners ignore, half-read, or round file it. If there's something in there that they need to know (like the new combination to the pool lock), they get that.. but if it's something they don't want to hear like an increase in dues or clean up after your dog, they never got it.

It sounds like you're doing the right thing, which is to get involved.

The reason I am against professional property management is our SD has one main entrance (two back entrances that are not landscaped and come in from another SD), no pool, no tennis courts, no common green area, no playground, no basketball court, no community building, etc...'we don't got nuttin'!" We do not have enough resources to need a property managment group.

I am fine with the way the SD is currently being run by the HOA - cheap. We don't have the need to get more expensive and fancy in how the HOA does things. I don't think a yearly meeting is too much to ask for or even a memo maybe twice a year, or how about once a year just to let us know what is going on...which will be next to nothing.

I know I am going to be a thorn in the side of the current and future HOA board but you always need dissenters! "WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I need to stop stalking this thread...

[eventhough]

Little Update: Counsel is lined up if needed.

[Brock]

HOAs can be your greatest asset or your worse enemy.....we have proxy letters so if you cannot attend someone you trust can vote in your absence. That is the RIGHT way of doing it...not making your vote a FOR vote.

GOOD LUCK...

[eventhough]

Little update and I apologize in advance for my rambling...

HOA meeting was last night...was very 'interesting.' Basically a bunch of people jumping to conclusions. I.E.: "If we don't change our covenants someone can put a mobile home on a lot"..."um no, ever heard of zoning? We have it and you can't do that here" ... "but someone could put a mobile home in the subdivision!"

Here is the jist of everything.

- Original builder is the executor(?) of the SD covenants. Original builder is defunct so supposedly no one can enforce the covenants. B/c of this people are not paying their yearly dues, probably around 1/4 to 1/3 don't pay.

- We have to retain counsel to see if the HOA can incorporate and then replace the old covenants that are not enforcable.

- The HOA's excuse not to communicate over the past 3 years or hold one single meeting is "we were busy and didn't want to bother everyone."

- Several people sent emails saying they opposed everything dude to the wording on the memo that went out prior to the meeting. This memo was the one that said "if you don't show up your vote will be counted as a yes." The HOA still doesn't understand (even though I told them) that this really hurt them. Carrot before the stick people!

- I went toe-to-toe with a lawyer who was a homeowner. He, along with others, kept saying that the old covenants were "boilerplate builder covenants" and worthless. I had to point out that the old/legal covenants were basically the same as the new ones the HOA wanted to pass. "But they don't say anything about parking in the street"..."-clears throat- actually they do - see section 4.0.1"

- The HOA Pres couldn't believe that people were still buying houses and being supplied with the "old" covenants. "Lady - the old covenants are the legally binding covenants, are filed at the courthouse and are therefore what matters." Her response "but the HOA board passed the new covenants in 2003!" My response "Lady, the new covenants are not worth the paper they are written on since they were never filed"..."But we passed them in 2003!"

- The meeting was basically a CF (a little acronym I use...figure it out) with people knee-jerking and jumping to conclusions. I did my best to slow everyone down and I really think I was successful. I had to give a little but I gained a lot. People were getting ticked off at the smallest thing. One neighbor built a very small pool house (about 6x8 maybe at the largest). The pool house looks exactly like their house and they have a 6' privacy fence around their pool area so all you can see is the top of the roof. The HOA (which I remind you does not legally exist) wants to make the guy remove the pool house. I think this is absurd - it looks nice and fits in well with the surroundings.

- Then we returned to the "but someone will put a mobile home in the subdivision!" and then we returned again and again

- We had 14 homes represented at the meeting out of appx 52 in the SD. Several people, and especially the lawyer, could not figure out why it mattered that we try and include anyone that was not present and also why I was concerned with people who did not show up. I explained that just because someone was not here does not mean that they do not have a legal standing against everything that is essentially illegal that the HOA is doing. I was told "if they are not here they do not care and they will not do anything." It shocked a few people when I explained that I had already retained counsel and have a solid legal basis to sue if the HOA went forward with most of what they had outlined in their memo. Everyone looked like this: . "But why would you do that????" they kept asking...."Because what you are doing is WRONG!!!

- All in all I felt like I was shoving my head against the wall constantly. No one could keep on one subject to get it resolved before they jumped around to something else. "Roberts rule of order" were not followed.

- The HOA voted to spend up to $10,000 on legal counsel to get incorporated and implement new covenants. One problem though folks - we only have $4800 in the bank.

- When I showed up almost everyone wanted to hang me. They were tying a knot and one guy even went to get a horse. When I left I was on the HOA Board along with a neighbor who has a very similar stance to me. I'm on the Board until we get incorporated which might be a few months to a year. At that point everyone will go back up for reelection and I'm in for VP and my neighbor is in for P. That will be interesting...

I'm sure I left a ton of stuff out but I've got work to do...I'll reread later and update.

[brett76]

stuff like that pool house thing is why i dont want an hoa

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by brett76

stuff like that pool house thing is why i dont want an hoa

I drive by it every day at least twice - I never knew it was there until I was told to look for it...great example of why people shouldn't have too much time on their hands.