North Pole May Be Ice Free for First Time This Summer

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

Ok, but how about the change in temperature over North America for the several days following 9/11 when there were no commercial jets and hence no contrails?

what about it? the temperature changes all the time.

[LukeO]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

what about it? the temperature changes all the time.

What he's getting at could be.

As far as Earth's natural cycles go, air traffic (for example) and heavy, industrialized human populations have NOT been part of the Earth's 4.5 billion year old climate equation.


We are a new variable and should not be ignored.

[OZCAL]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

what about it? the temperature changes all the time.

Here. Don't know 'em, don't vouch for 'em, but I accept the premise.

I'm just throwing a wrench in his contention that we can't have an impact on the weather.

[LukeO]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

Here. Don't know 'em, don't vouch for 'em, but I accept the premise.

I'm just throwing a wrench in his contention that we can't have an impact on the weather.

Sounds kinda like the effects of spent diesel (heavy particulate matter) blocking the sun's light (heat). With new restirctions on diesel in an attempt to clean the air less light (heat) will be reflected back into space and the Earth ends up absorbing more which eventually will speed up this heating process. So the theory goes.


Maybe big brother could make everyone stop driving and turn all of the factories/power plants/etc off for a week so scientists can get more data

[Mr. Toad]

I was under the understanding that diesel particulates fall out if the atmosphere within minutes.

Sulfur compounds (from burning coal, erupting volcanoes, 'dirty' diesel, etc.) reflect sunlight very effectively. So maybe the burning of fossil fuels had its own, built-in correction factor, at least until the highly effective campaign against acid rain in the late 70s.

[Cube Dweller]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddy

How about Tool - Aenema:

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullsheot three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless focking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any focking day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

...

Learn to swim.

Fock smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fock these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

Tool was the loudest show I've ever been to. Louder than Motorhead. This has no relevance to North Pole ice melt.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by Cube Dweller

Tool was the loudest show I've ever been to. Louder than Motorhead. This has no relevance to North Pole ice melt.

I think it might have relevance. I suspect the sound particles created by Motorhead and Tool coult block the sun completely if not unchecked.

Tool louder than Motorhead? I call shenanigans. Must have been the venue. I've seen both and the most recent Motorhead show I saw made me near-deaf for three days despite my use of earplugs.

And now a pic of Lemmy beating a girl's ass with a jumbo bag of Reese's Pieces:

[LukeO]

Originally Posted by Mr. Toad

I was under the understanding that diesel particulates fall out if the atmosphere within minutes.

Sulfur compounds (from burning coal, erupting volcanoes, 'dirty' diesel, etc.) reflect sunlight very effectively. So maybe the burning of fossil fuels had its own, built-in correction factor, at least until the highly effective campaign against acid rain in the late 70s.

Not sure exactly how long everything floats around, but dirt/dust/pollen are categorized under particulates too. I believe particulates are generally more of a health concern rather than thought of as a huge blanket blocking whatever amounts of sunlight.

[RavenTai]

" So if contrails are off-setting warming, is that a good thing? Travis is
quick to point out that contrails only affect regional climates.

``We don't want people to think that it's a great thing that contrails are out
there,'' he said. ``Because any artificial temperature change isn't good for
the environment.''




Is this a scientist with an agenda?

I am reading a book right now, Floods, Famines and Emperors by Brian Fagan, goes into how "global climate change" has fucked up our lives for the past 10,000 years, long before we were burning fossil fuels.

[Brian in Oregon]

This will be interesting. It's long been predicted that if the polar ice cap melts, Manhattan will be inundated. Now we'll see if this comes true.

[OZCAL]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

" So if contrails are off-setting warming, is that a good thing? Travis is
quick to point out that contrails only affect regional climates.

``We don't want people to think that it's a great thing that contrails are out
there,'' he said. ``Because any artificial temperature change isn't good for
the environment.''




Is this a scientist with an agenda?

I am reading a book right now, Floods, Famines and Emperors by Brian Fagan, goes into how "global climate change" has fucked up our lives for the past 10,000 years, long before we were burning fossil fuels.

Brian Fagan on the Daily Show. It's cool because while Fagan avoids Jon Stewart's attempts to derail him, the conversation does make it to unicorns at the end

But Raventai, that's fine. My point is that contrails affect the climate, nothing more, nothing less, and earlier on somebody in this thread was denying the possibility of a human impact on the climate. Travis' research indicates otherwise.

Accusing David Travis of having an agenda is as valuable as accusing Fagan of wanting to sell books. Here's Travis page at the University of Wisconsin. It has links to his research, including the contrail study. Maybe someone who understands peer review can look at his links and determine whether he is a respected authority in the field.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

...
But Raventai, that's fine. My point is that contrails affect the climate, nothing more, nothing less, and earlier on somebody in this thread was denying the possibility of a human impact on the climate. Travis' research indicates otherwise....

There are six billion of us eating everything in sight, farting, belching, operating vehicles and machinery, replacing oxygenating forests with pasture for more methane producers, burning anything flammable, and dumping our shit into maritime ecosystems. To suggest we don't have an impact on the climate is, well.... stupid.

[Brian in Oregon]

Originally Posted by IronYuppy

There are six billion of us eating everything in sight, farting, belching, operating vehicles and machinery, replacing oxygenating forests with pasture for more methane producers, burning anything flammable, and dumping our shit into maritime ecosystems. To suggest we don't have an impact on the climate is, well.... stupid.

"...stupid". Now THERE'S a scientifically based conclusion if I've ever seen one.

[Mr. Toad]

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

"...stupid". Now THERE'S a scientifically based conclusion if I've ever seen one.

So do you need a double-blind study to know that shit stinks?

[OZCAL]

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

"...stupid". Now THERE'S a scientifically based conclusion if I've ever seen one.

LOL. You are the "Have a penny, leave a penny. Need a penny, take a penny" tray of 'Mud.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

LOL. You are the "Have a penny, leave a penny. Need a penny, take a penny" tray of 'Mud.

I don't really know what that means, but I love it.

[89GASHOG]

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

This will be interesting. It's long been predicted that if the polar ice cap melts, Manhattan will be inundated. Now we'll see if this comes true.

Ah but Mr. Science you have misread your source and forgotten about Archimede's principle. Ice floating on water is already displacing its volume, so when it melts the sea level will not rise. When glaciers resting on solid ground melt, and this includes Greenland and Antarctica, then sea levels rise.
I recently talked with a wacko hippy glaciologist (actually a staid member of the "greatest generation") about his observations on a recent trip to Greenland.
He said that the greatest loss of ice is coming from the faces of glaciers calving into the sea. And yes, he says that the ice loss is unprecedented in its rapidity.

[OZCAL]

Originally Posted by 89GASHOG

Ah but Mr. Science you have misread your source and forgotten about Archimede's principle. Ice floating on water is already displacing its volume, so when it melts the sea level will not rise. When glaciers resting on solid ground melt, and this includes Greenland and Antarctica, then sea levels rise.
I recently talked with a wacko hippy glaciologist (actually a staid member of the "greatest generation") about his observations on a recent trip to Greenland.
He said that the greatest loss of ice is coming from the faces of glaciers calving into the sea. And yes, he says that the ice loss is unprecedented in its rapidity.

I don't know who this Archimedes guy is, or if he's even a member of this board, but he's stealing RavenTai's work.

[atoyot]

Those mars landers are pissing the martians off

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

I don't know who this Archimedes guy is, or if he's even a member of this board, but he's stealing RavenTai's work.

So are you saying RavenTai is being screwed by Archimedes?

[Brian in Oregon]

Originally Posted by 89GASHOG

Ah but Mr. Science you have misread your source and forgotten about Archimede's principle. Ice floating on water is already displacing its volume, so when it melts the sea level will not rise. When glaciers resting on solid ground melt, and this includes Greenland and Antarctica, then sea levels rise.
I recently talked with a wacko hippy glaciologist (actually a staid member of the "greatest generation") about his observations on a recent trip to Greenland.
He said that the greatest loss of ice is coming from the faces of glaciers calving into the sea. And yes, he says that the ice loss is unprecedented in its rapidity.

So.... all these dire predictions of coastal plain flooding due to the melting of the polar icecaps are false?

[IDave]

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

This will be interesting. It's long been predicted that if the polar ice cap melts, Manhattan will be inundated. Now we'll see if this comes true.

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

"...stupid". Now THERE'S a scientifically based conclusion if I've ever seen one.

Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon

So.... all these dire predictions of coastal plain flooding due to the melting of the polar icecaps are false?

The coasts won't flood because of melting NORTH polar ice (which is floating). South Pole, and other landbound ice, melting and running into the ocean is the concern.

[Brian in Oregon]

Originally Posted by IDave

The coasts won't flood because of melting NORTH polar ice (which is floating). South Pole, and other landbound ice, melting and running into the ocean is the concern.

That makes a lot more sense than the usual blanket claims.

[Happy Trails]

Hasn't the South Pole added more ice the past couple years?