$$ of Airline Flights

[Mr. Toad]

Originally Posted by scottm

. . . It sounds like a lot of $, but it's not worth it.
. . .
But they're voting with their feet, leaving as soon as they can. A lot of furloughed (laid off) pilots are declining to come back, they must have better jobs and better lives.

Making $121K isn't really that easy, unless you're very well-connected (and then it's just insulting). Sure, go to med school and land a good specialty residency, or go to law school and get on with a top firm and you'll make that kind of money -- probably more if you're the physician coming out of your twelfth year of post-high school training/schooling. Maybe investment banking, etc. But you'll sacrifice the family there too because you'll likely spend more time away from them than if you were flying a 767 internationally. Believe me.

I suspect that a lot of pilots are not coming back after furloughs because the industry is sick, their jobs are unstable, there are a ton of good pilots competing for the jobs, and they've chosen to trade the prospect of very good pay for some stability. It's a benefit-risk assessment for them, just like everybody else.

[DSRTRDR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Toad

The reason they're overpaid is because they'd do it for less.

with all due respect, but that is the most idiotic approach to setting salary levels I have ever heard

with this attitude, it would be justified to pay the people who love their jobs most (and are most likely to perform best) the least salary

on the other hand, I agree that a lot of shitty jobs are not nearly compensated well enough considering how shitty they are

[scottm]

I guess you could compare it to med school. When I was hired at American the average age of new pilots was 40, so 20 years after high school. We started at under $20k, and they still do. I know some doctors work weekends and holidays. Airline pilots work mostly weekends, holidays, summers, because that's when the flying is the greatest. Doctors go home at night. Doctors can move to another hospital or another town and keep their value, while airline pilots start again at under $20k if they leave the company.

I remember checking into a hotel about five years ago. The room smelled bad, I thought it was coming from the hall. I checked for intruders before letting the door close. I grabbed my street clothes out of my bag, then zipped it to keep bugs out. There was a YMCA across the street, it occurred to me that there was very likely a homeless guy checking into the Y, doing the exact same thing I was doing. He probably had more possessions with him. It was my kid's birthday or family holiday or something. I was on a four-day trip, I'd been up since 2am, and had 8 hours 'till pickup. No time to work out or find a decent meal, again. The guy at the Y probably had a hot meal. That was my life, half my life anyway. The other half was recovering from fatigue and trying to synch with my wife and kids lives. They learned to live without me pretty quickly.

[DanS HJ-45]

Mr. Toad:

At least you're a bit more in the know than most.

This is the big problem in the industry (and why I won't likely remain in it): those siblings you mentioned have a very slim chance of ever moving above that level. I myself have had to endure the bottom of a seniority list on the regional level three times now. It's getting to be more and more common to be effectively "stuck" at the regional level and the instability that entails.

Even a "good" regional is still played against other regionals, with the common result that one airline will lose a contract, and 80% of the pilots from that company will be hired by the new one to fly the same routes, but at the bottom of a seniority list. It's quite the racket.

The reason they're overpaid is because they'd do it for less.

The assumption behind this is that the market is right. The market also allows prostitution. The only reason that people will take substandard wages is because they see a payoff someday, and there are companies who are more than happy to play up the perception that they will get a payoff, as long as they keep their heads down and suck it up today. It's been remarkably effective for management, although it is starting to fail.

Look at Mesa currently. They have been one of the worst companies to work for for quite some time, and have really employed the business model that if you put up with their crap, that you will get paid in the end (by someone else). It isn't exactly working out well for that company at the moment, even while the pilot hiring market is flooded with furloughees--they are still seriously understaffed.

I'm not so sure that I buy the doctor/lawyer compensation argument there. Here's why: I've got good friends who are both. My age. We went to high school together. There is a WORLD of difference between their compensation level and mine, and has been from day one. A resident makes more than a regional airline pilot, and spends more time with the wife than I ever could. Again: this is my observation from high school friends who are doctors and lawyers, and is far from scientific. (I think they are seriously under-compensated for the early portions of their careers as well)

If pilots are really overcompensated, then there'd be a surplus of people learning to fly and working to become pilots. That's not the case. For good reason. Spending 60K+ to earn 20K a year is simply bad math. I'm glad to see that the supply of morons willing to make that deal is dwindling (on the plus side, you've got those same morons coming to some flight decks near you).

As an aside: I was just this morning invited to interview overseas. The salary is 3 times what I make here, the schedule is better, and that's to fly a smaller airplane than I fly today. I'm not alone. At a previous airline, over 40% of the pilots on the seniority list when I started are now overseas working. Fantastic for the US economy, really.

Dan

[scottm]

Well said Dan, I think you get it. Be very careful with the overseas thing, I've heard scary things about guys who went to Emirates.

[Mr. Toad]

Originally Posted by DSRTRDR

with all due respect, but that is the most idiotic approach to setting salary levels I have ever heard

Well, maybe, but it's what's known as a market approach. DanS HJ-45 gets it, though he recognizes that the market is out of balance right now.

Originally Posted by scottm

I remember checking into a hotel about five years ago. The room smelled bad, I thought it was coming from the hall. I checked for intruders before letting the door close. I grabbed my street clothes out of my bag, then zipped it to keep bugs out. There was a YMCA across the street, it occurred to me that there was very likely a homeless guy checking into the Y, doing the exact same thing I was doing. He probably had more possessions with him. It was my kid's birthday or family holiday or something. I was on a four-day trip, I'd been up since 2am, and had 8 hours 'till pickup. No time to work out or find a decent meal, again. The guy at the Y probably had a hot meal. That was my life, half my life anyway. The other half was recovering from fatigue and trying to synch with my wife and kids lives. They learned to live without me pretty quickly.

That sucks. Truly. But it's not very different than a snapshot of life as a young associate at a law firm. Work 8:30 to 10 pretty much Mon -Fri and 2 'till 6 (at least) on Saturday and Sunday, all for the pleasure of having three partners competing for your time and bitching at you for not reading their minds. I guess my situation was different from yours when I was doing the associate thing because I got to see my wife's face every night. She was beautiful when she slept. Yeah, that was really good for the marriage.

Originally Posted by DanS HJ-45

. . . The only reason that people will take substandard wages is because they see a payoff someday

Good points Dan, but I disagree with that one, and would point out that what is 'substandard' is a moving target based on all kinds of different factors, including the things pointed out by you and scottm.

Originally Posted by DanS HJ-45

I'm not so sure that I buy the doctor/lawyer compensation argument there. Here's why: I've got good friends who are both. My age. We went to high school together. There is a WORLD of difference between their compensation level and mine, and has been from day one. A resident makes more than a regional airline pilot, and spends more time with the wife than I ever could. Again: this is my observation from high school friends who are doctors and lawyers, and is far from scientific. (I think they are seriously under-compensated for the early portions of their careers as well)

Some lawyers are ridiculously overcompensated at the beginnings of their careers. A few big firms in the best markets (NY, LA) are starting their brand-new associates at 160,000/yr; the leaders in some of the second tier markets (Denver, Houston, etc.) start their associates over 100K/yr. But after that, the salary curve is pretty flat for all but a few.

It sounds like you have very fortunate friends. Keep this in mind: The middle 50% of lawyers make between around $65K and $140K. The ABA Journal says that average lawyer in '08 (across all markets) makes about 113K. As of '02, only 10% earned more than $145K. And don't forget, as many lawyers leave the profession each year as enter it.

The grass is not always greener. The same arguments are being made in every profession. The comments are interesting.

[DanS HJ-45]

She was beautiful when she slept. Yeah, that was really good for the marriage.

Least you got to see her sleep. I've spent nearly the past month and a half in a hotel room in St. Louis. It's a good thing I'm not married: I doubt I would be after too many of those. I didn't even get to choose when I went, I just got three days notice that I was going to be gone for a long time. Fun stuff, eh! On the plus side, I've been at home since Friday, and I think my company forgot that I exist (I'm going to try to keep it that way!).

There's also additional stress that comes from simple distance. Lets say that the plumbing burst at home. If you are working those long hours, you COULD just go home and deal with it (and the freaking out wife). If a pipe bursts while I'm out. Bummer. Call a plumber. Find someone (neighbor, or in my case parents) to let them in, arrange payment, etc...

I think my friends have been pretty fortunate (and myself not so, which further skews my unscientific example) as well. Right place, right time, never had to move....

We live in a free market. But we mess it up with all sorts of things (emplyment laws, contracts, unions, etc...). I think in many industries the basic problem is that wages have simply been stagnant for far too long, and now people want to get paid. Unfortunately, with out economy not doing so well, it's not a good time to demand said payment. Of course, I think a lot of our general economic problems come from our depressed wages (of course, it's every other employer that's underpaying, etc...). The fact that the market is out of balance now is something that will need to be dealt with, and it's not going to be pretty while it swings back to where it ought to be.

As to the overseas thing... I'll either be going to India, Ireland or Australia. At the moment Ireland is the most promising. Pretty tame work environment compared to India (although with all the Alaska time, not much phases me anymore ), decent pay, and a commutable schedule (6 weeks on/2 weeks off). We'll see how it goes.

...and would point out that what is 'substandard' is a moving target based on all kinds of different factors, including the things pointed out by you and scottm.

I guess I probably used the term wrong. I mean substandard as in "I would not do this job for this level of compensation indefinitely." They are taking crappy jobs now because of a perceived payoff, instead of taking the job based on the virtues of that job.

Dan

[Cruisin'Carolina]

I thought this thread was going to be about the "over 200lbs pay more rule" I heard about.

:darn:

[beno]

I think overseas airlines are where it is at if you want to retain the glamour and historical payscales of the old school legacy carriers here in the states.

Example: The #2 captain for Skywest at the SMF base left OO to work for Emirates. He is now right-seat on a 777-300ER, has a home paid for by Emirates in DXB, was moved to DXB by Emirates (all expenses paid including his family) and he is given positive space trips back to the states 2 times a year for a week at a time (his extended family lives outside of SFO), and Emirates pays for the children's schooling at an American school in DXB.

Lots of overseas flag carriers are doing this because they realize that the strict and high standards of FAA-type training is worth the money.

I can guarantee you that Dan can leave the regional carrier he currently works for (and I see him fly in and out of ABQ) and make X3 the money working for a overseas carrier with better benefits as well as better ability to get into the left seat of a wide-body.

The overseas carriers are hiring experiences pilots like it was going out of style. And that is why they continue to succeed and make money and why the American carriers continue to flounder and fail.

Of course, national subsidies help too...

[DanS HJ-45]

Lots of overseas flag carriers are doing this because they realize that the strict and high standards of FAA-type training is worth the money.

It is amazing. I've spent the past couple of days really looking into the JAA licesnes, and other than the writtens they are CAKE. I'd bet I could pass one in a piston single or twin tomorrow--and I haven't flown a non transport category airplane for 6+ years! Crazy how easy the actual flying tests over there are. The theoretical (written) tests are stupid and even less based in reality than the FAA writtens, but that's the european way!

I can guarantee you that Dan can leave the regional carrier he currently works for (and I see him fly in and out of ABQ) and make X3 the money working for a overseas carrier with better benefits as well as better ability to get into the left seat of a wide-body.

3X is an understatement. To go fly the ATR in Ireland I'd be looking at 4X what I make now, minimum. To fly the ATR in India, it'd be about the equivalent of making $250K in the US. Wide body though? I'm actively looking to go back to flying something more fun. I miss actually having to do crazy things like retard the power levers (or do anything more than pushing them into a detent for takeoff). Seriously....

What's really crazy is that I might have more meaningful time off at home if I work outside the country. I get home and I'm usually pretty tapped, and that means an unproductive day when I get home, and I usually loaf the day before I have to head back to work too. Since my average days off now are 3-4 in a row, going to 2-3 weeks at a stretch (even if they are two or three months apart) means that I can get into real trouble when I'm home. I can do a lot more if I don't have to worry about putting things back together quickly.

The overseas carriers are hiring experiences pilots like it was going out of style. And that is why they continue to succeed and make money and why the American carriers continue to flounder and fail.

They are certainly paying a premium for the experienced pilots in the US to come and be a good example of how the safest aviation system in the world works. Lord knows a lot of them need the help.

Dan

[scottm]

As I said before Dan, be careful what you sign for these overseas jobs.

In the U.S. we have almost indentured servitude, but it's still illegal here. Not only do U.S. employers promise to pay you what the job is worth only if you take crap pay for ten years or more, we often have training contracts. You owe the airline for your training expenses (if you don't have to pay them up front!), possibly $10k for a job that pays under $20k. When there was a glut of pilots and the majors were paying well, pilots were jumping at these training contracts and dreaming of paying it all off when they someday got into the majors.

I interviewed for an ATR job in Chicago. I would have to pay my expenses in Ireland during training while getting no pay, and I would owe them for the actual training cost. Winters in Iceland in the Reserves didn't look so bad then.

I've heard nasty stories of Americans in Saudi sneaking out of the country in fear of arrest. They will seriously arrest you if you try to quit. If you have family, they will put them out of company housing, empty your bank accounts, and end your pay. So your wife and kids are broke on the street in Saudi and you're in a not-so-nice jail.

Since you're single, this might work out alright, another adventure. Chances are you'll be married someday, hopefully you'll be in a more favorable situation by then. Even with a good income, families don't do well with an occasional dad.

Boy that sounds familiar. "...when we get that airline job and we have more money..." Wife and I lived that statement for over ten years, as did most of the guys I flew with. Even after I got in the airlines, we were waiting for that big pay increase that never happened.

[OZCAL]

Originally Posted by IronYuppy

That's funny; television and radio are the same way.

Dude - I was getting $210.75 a day in 1983. What are the rates now?

[D'Animal]

Ticket prices dropped to $435.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by OZCAL

Dude - I was getting $210.75 a day in 1983. What are the rates now?

Not sure what your job was. Probably close to the same. COL hasn't been reflected in the wages lately, and in the case of Canada, scale rates have dropped by 35% on average since 2001. I make about half what I made in 2000, which is why I'm drivin' a truck now.

[Weedhopper]

I just checked cost of a flight to Georgia to see my son graduate basic training in August. $1238. Round trip. If he had gone to Missouri as originally planned the cost would have been $250. W. T. F. ???

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by Weedhopper

I just checked cost of a flight to Georgia to see my son graduate basic training in August. $1238. Round trip. If he had gone to Missouri as originally planned the cost would have been $250. W. T. F. ???

were you planning on renting a car anyway? check on flying into Bermingham AL, many people from Atlanta use bermingham for cheap flights, as long as your final destination is the west side fo Georgia it is not that far.

[Weedhopper]

T.H.A.N.K. YOU !!! Birmingham is $338. round trip.


I LUV MUD !!!

[NorCalDoug]

Originally Posted by Weedhopper

I just checked cost of a flight to Georgia to see my son graduate basic training in August. $1238. Round trip. If he had gone to Missouri as originally planned the cost would have been $250. W. T. F. ???

which airline?

I saw flights from hartford to atlanta for around $500.



EDIT...nevermind...

[Weedhopper]

While I've got you... How long a drive do you think it is from Birmingham to Columbus GA. ??? Ft. Benning is just South of Columbus.

[Weedhopper]

Originally Posted by NorCalDoug

which airline?

Delta. Out Aug 28 Back Aug 30

Htfd, CT to Columbus GA.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by Weedhopper

T.H.A.N.K. YOU !!! Birmingham is $338. round trip.


I LUV MUD !!!

Read the fine print, though. Getting into Alabama is cheap, but getting out is cost-prohibitive. Like, impossible.

But I like the new Birmingham International Airport terminal, though:

[NorCalDoug]

google maps is your friend...

according to google maps...
montgomery, al to columbus, ga is 89 miles

so...an hour and a half to 2 hours?