2009 Prius - 94 MPG?

[haryv]

Three key factors that hold back these high fuel economy cars on the road today..

1. Highly efficent engine.

2. Keeping the weight of the vehicle as low as possible.
This is the key factor in keeping the city MPG numbers up as high as possible. The engine will need less energy "HP/Torqe" to excelerate the same vehicle if it was light as possible. Carbon Composites, Aluminum space frame and newly adapted steel hydroform and other advanced body construction will be more prevelent in the near future as soon as the cost come down to produce these vehicle bodies.

3. Vehicle Arodynamics

This factor applies more to the vehicle is driven beond 55 mph. Any time the speed is increased a given amount the drag doubles. Factors that contribute to low coficient drag numbers and subsquently high MPG numbers are as follows-

* Closed Wheel wells
* Flat Belly pan
* No external mirrors
* No external body surfaces that can disrupt the air stream.
* roof mounted vortex generators

I know there are possibly other factors that can keep the drag numbers down but cannot think of them.

Todays cars have yet to meet these numbers that the the Honda Insite, The Crushed GM Impact electric car and the near production aptera Aptera no other car on the road has yet to equal these vehicles in great fuel economy.

[haryv]

lizardking100

My parents are not rich and do not drive there preius as a status vehicle. In fact thay are thrifty cut out food cupons live in a very old house. Thay purchaced it because it SAVED them in fuel cost.

The concept of the hybed is a OLD design when GM was the first company to actually develope a hybred concept in 1968-1969 time period.

In 1993 when I was a automotive tech, I did not know that this concept even existed at the time but with my forward thinking I thought of how to store the engines energy and use it when excelerating the vehicle.

I see the plug in hybred as the best of both worlds. Its a very smart idea to save on large amounts of fuel in city driving and I can see all the import and domestic implement this idea in future production designs now and into the future.

[IdahoDoug]

Except for the issue that the plug in Prius puts out more carbon emissions because the powergrids in the US use a lot of nasty dirty coal to generate electricity. And building a Prius pollutes more than building a Hummer due to the special low volume parts and new plants and suppliers vs the Hummer uses same parts as vehicles already in production. So, other than costing the planet MORE than a huge SUV in resources to make, getting fuel MPG that is not the leader, costing the owner a lot to buy, and one day needing $4000 worth of batteries around 100,000 miles they're a great idea to save the planet and save money. Urp......

DougM

[Bogo]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Except for the issue that the plug in Prius puts out more carbon emissions because the powergrids in the US use a lot of nasty dirty coal to generate electricity. And building a Prius pollutes more than building a Hummer due to the special low volume parts and new plants and suppliers vs the Hummer uses same parts as vehicles already in production. So, other than costing the planet MORE than a huge SUV in resources to make, getting fuel MPG that is not the leader, costing the owner a lot to buy, and one day needing $4000 worth of batteries around 100,000 miles they're a great idea to save the planet and save money. Urp......

DougM

Man you have some ****ed up logic there. PS, the Prius is being built in the hundreds of thousands a year. It is not a small production vehicle. Also for your information, Toyota is very good at using preexisting parts on new models and the Prius is no exception. As for the cost of that replacement battery pack, that is much less than the fuel savings. As for running off of grid power, that is more carbon efficient than gas engine power. This is even taking into account grid losses and battery charging losses. It is also assuming the power is 100% coal fired and no carbon scrubbing is done at the power plant. The only one that is less efficient carbon wise is diesel engine powered generator power plant and that is still close because those big diesels are very efficient.

[MoJ]

Originally Posted by firetruck41

Whether people brag about a car for whatever reason, really has no effect on how good/bad a vehicle is. We want a fuel efficient car for the wife, who puts lots of miles on her car. We can go from the MDX to a Prius with not much difference in cost, I wouldn't buy it because it strokes my ego about the environment, but because it would save us about $140 a month. If people buy it just to feel good about themselves, that's fine, as long as I can use it to my advantage, to buy a vehicle that will be easier to find/purchase. So, can I buy a used Prius, or does that mean I'm a self deceived snob too?

Buy a Corolla and "save" even more $.

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Except for the issue that the plug in Prius puts out more carbon emissions because the powergrids in the US use a lot of nasty dirty coal to generate electricity. And building a Prius pollutes more than building a Hummer due to the special low volume parts and new plants and suppliers vs the Hummer uses same parts as vehicles already in production. So, other than costing the planet MORE than a huge SUV in resources to make, getting fuel MPG that is not the leader, costing the owner a lot to buy, and one day needing $4000 worth of batteries around 100,000 miles they're a great idea to save the planet and save money. Urp......

DougM

Making electricity out of dirty coal is still cleaner than trying to generate it in small quantities.

This load of nonsense about the Hummer being more efficent than a Prius has been well and truly busted.

From Concept to Disposal” caught the interest of the media and the public with its claim that a
Hummer H3 SUV has a lower life-cycle energy cost than a Toyota Prius hybrid. Closer
inspection suggests that the report’s conclusions rely on faulty methods of analysis, untenable
assumptions, selective use and presentation of data, and a complete lack of peer review

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Except for the issue that the plug in Prius puts out more carbon emissions because the powergrids in the US use a lot of nasty dirty coal to generate electricity. And building a Prius pollutes more than building a Hummer due to the special low volume parts and new plants and suppliers vs the Hummer uses same parts as vehicles already in production. So, other than costing the planet MORE than a huge SUV in resources to make, getting fuel MPG that is not the leader, costing the owner a lot to buy, and one day needing $4000 worth of batteries around 100,000 miles they're a great idea to save the planet and save money. Urp......

DougM

Can you mail me some of the stuff you are smoking? That's got to be some good shit.

[dealmaker]

I'm done with 13 MPG and $85+ fill-ups.

I'm scrapping the idea of buying a LC100, I'm mothballing the 4Runner, and I'm going to be 1st in line for the new Prius, if I don't buy a Fit first.

I may even buy some clothes made of hemp just to ruffle a few feathers.

[cruiser88]

Originally Posted by firetruck41

22mpg highway is not that impressive. 21mpg city is pretty impressive for a full size SUV, in city driving, it is a full 50% improvement over a non-hybrid Tahoe. I get 10-11mpg in my small full size SUV (80 series), double that, sounds pretty good.

Correct more so sense my uncles GMC Sonoma gets 20

[MiniPigg]

I am still waiting for the Audi A2 1.4TDI to hit State side. They are scheduled to be here in another 2 years. The A2 has been getting 89mpg imperial for some time now. It is all diesel. Audi has also been working on getting those figures to 100mpg imperial and they have been working on a diesel/electric hybrid for some time now on the same frame that they hope will get 150+mpg imperial.

Even the California smog-nazis have given VAG group praise on how their TDI's are very efficient and have extremely low emissions.

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by MiniPigg

I am still waiting for the Audi A2 1.4TDI to hit State side. They are scheduled to be here in another 2 years. The A2 has been getting 89mpg for some time now. It is all diesel. Audi has also been working on getting those figures to 100mpg and they have been working on a diesel/electric hybrid for some time now on the same frame that they hope will get 150+mpg.

Even the California smog-nazis have given VAG group praise on how their TDI's are very efficient and have extremely low emissions.

Peugeot is worth a look if you can get one in the US.They have the woRld record at 90.75mpg in imperial gallons

Peugeot News - 308 Fuel Economy World Records

[MiniPigg]

Originally Posted by roscoFJ73

Peugeot is worth a look if you can get one in the US.They have the wold record at 90.75mpg in imperial gallons

Peugeot News - 308 Fuel Economy World Records

I love the Peugeot 306 wrc. It's cool watching them in the ralley races.
Remember back in the 80's they Heep Herokee's had Peugeot diesels in them.

[sundaypunch]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

......building a Prius pollutes more than building a Hummer due to the special low volume parts and new plants and suppliers vs the Hummer uses same parts as vehicles already in production. So, other than costing the planet MORE than a huge SUV in resources to make.....

You are quoting a study that was found to be significantly flawed. Here is the original story-
The Recorder

Here is a closer look-
Roadside Assistance, Insurance & Travel | About Better World Club

I'm not a fan of the Prius at all. I would much rather have a similar size TDI diesel. It is misleading though to tell people the Prius is worse than a Hummer based on bad science.

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by MiniPigg

I love the Peugeot 306 wrc. It's cool watching them in the ralley races.
Remember back in the 80's they Heep Herokee's had Peugeot diesels in them.

I loved playing WRC on PS2. Everytime I see the tracks on TV ,I remember my glory days in a 306 or Lancer

We never got Chrylser jeeps until 96-97(we actually had no new jeeps from 84-96}
They did come in small 2.something litre diesels I think,not sure if they were peugeot.
I read a review on diesel jeeps of that era ,and while not good ,there were others that were worse.
The 4 cyl turbo diesel toyota offered blew heads,the nissan was so slow it shoudnt have been allowed on the road,I dont know about the Range Rover diesel except that it was a bit small also

[Pinion]

My Chevy Uplander gets 21mpg. Straight gas. Not too bad, not very great looking but it will haul everything I need across the country and you can sleep in it. Once the corporate lease is up, I'm hoping we go with hybrids.

[FirstToy]

The 09 Prius is more powerful, 94mpg's and cheaper price! (depending on how our dollar holds up)
Sorry to the naysayers but at those mpg's, a $20K Prius sedan is in my future!

It's going to be a sales frenzy at Toyota. I'm sure the usual dealer price gouging on the first few months and then the long wait as everyone orders... but as the gas prices climb, the Prius is going to look better and better. Plus, it's a Toyota!

[IdahoDoug]

Read the article referenced above that refutes the "Hummer vs Prius" argument and it's a big meh. Lots of innuendo and implied type of statements but extremely light on facts. By the way, I'd give the same criticism to the original "Hummer is better for the planet" article. Frankly, if I were with the refuting article's organization (an environmentally sensitive save the whales type) I'd have written a very similar article. I'm unconvinced.

I have spent a career in the auto industry on the design and planning side. I've seen the "bills" and investment that are associated with building, revising and sourcing automobiles and the plants that build them. I was Worldwide Powertrain Planner for GM and drove electric cars, cars powered by powdered coal, solar powered cars, etc as well as studied their costs and the changes in infrastructure some of them required for general adoption. Based on that background, and unfortunately without a study of the numbers to back me up, I agree with the basic contention of the "Hummer is better" camp. Do we need to explore and build things like gas/electric hybrids? Absolutely yes. But those things should be built by the manufacturers in small quantities and tested, and feasibility studies done to calculate if they would make sense FOR ALL MANKIND ON THE PLANET if they are to truly be green in the sense that they should replace the technology currently on the street. They should not be built and tossed out to the public in what is essentially a huge market test. You see, companies like GM and Toyota realize that we the gullible public have swallowed the global warming gig hook, line and sinker. They know they can make money serving that "need" even if the solution is not truly as green as it could/should be.

The generation of hybrids on the street now are like a branch on a tree that is growing. If the technology is proven to be the best for the planet, then sure - keep building and developing them. But if it's not, or the public falls in love with another technology then boom - the branch is cut off and no more development will go down that branch. That's why I believe the original article writer was correct in assigning ALL the development costs to the PRIUS for instance. I don't think hybrids are the way to go with all the unused potential of the small diesel engine. Honda recently cancelled their Accord hybrid program and will be marketing an Accord diesel to fill that spot in their lineup instead. Can anyone name a company that is better in engine technology than Honda? What do you think Honda knows that the rest of the auto industry doesn't? Plenty.

So, do I truly think the Hummer is better for the planet to buy and drive than a hybrid Prius? No - not really but I do believe that a proper analysis of its real world costs to the planet make them startlingly close for many of the reasons cited in the original article. To me, that's the whole point and its a valid one. If a thirsty, heavy, high clearance, high powered, ground pounding vehicle laden with skidplates, heavy axles, a full frame, rockin stereo, carrying racks, giant offroad tires, hundreds of pounds of insulation and an attitude can have a carbon footprint even in the same zipcode as a tinny econobox designed from the ground up to be frugal - I've got a problem with the econobox's posture as 'green'. And what if the guy had chosen a 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to compare instead of the Hummer? Mr Social Responsibility who wrote the article would probably not have written his refuting article because then their would have been no comparison - the Camry would win so convincingly it would make his head spin.

What's probably going to happen is the Prius' technology will undergo such a huge transformation over the next few generations that the original generations investment of molds, electronic components, circuit boards, processors, sensors, batteries, displays, etc will just be tossed and the business model will begin to more closely resemble - surprise - that used in the manufacturing of other electronic components like portable drills, cell phones, laptops and others. Ever try to get a new battery for a 4 year old portable phone in your house? Notice how technology has marched on and you can't find one and when you do your so pissed off that the battery is $35 and an all new phone for your house is $56? Because the battery is not a common one and is only made by Sony? Welcome to the future business model for the electric car. Essentially, the 'throw away society' the greenies loathe (and I do to) is being replicated for automobiles.

I think the Prius is an excellent product to show consumers what is possible with today's technology. Unfortunately, it will not be tomorrow's technology even if the Prius remains with the basic gasoline engine/electric motor/battery format. Tomorrow's Prius will have completely new technology under its hood that costs just as much global carbon footprint to do as this one did.

The thing of it is, the only way to properly do "all new engine technology" correctly is to form a consortium with fuel companies, the government, and all automakers from around the world to collectively decide with proper research which direction engine technology should go for the good of the earth. Do that, and the sky's the limit in terms of the development dollars spent on it because you know when it hits the street the infrastructure to refuel it, the fuel to power it and the regulations that determine its emissions and other crucial operating parameters are set in stone. Unfortunately, that's not been done and as noted earlier people in the know (Honda) are saying "hmmm, look at the potential for diesel. Let's go that direction....." and suddenly Prius Hybrid production shuts down around 2011 and this guy was right that all production and development costs should be accounted for against only the Prius' volume and just as suddenly the Prius turns out to be a single branch whose growth and subsequent appearance in landfills the world over was 'bad' for the planet. I'd give that a greater than 50% chance of happening, and that number will grow each time another manufacturer drops a small diesel into their lineup instead of a hugely expensive to develop hybrid. GM's hybrid program is likely a huge money loser - how long do you think they'll keep it up in this economic situation?

As someone said earlier. If you want a rock and roll efficient car for the globe, slap a European clean diesel in the existing Prius body. It would be 500lbs lighter than a Prius Hybrid, run 300,000 miles with just routine maintenance and probably get the same 90mpg.

DougM

[semlin]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Read the article referenced above that refutes the "Hummer vs Prius" argument and it's a big meh. Lots of innuendo and implied type of statements but extremely light on facts. By the way, I'd give the same criticism to the original "Hummer is better for the planet" article. Frankly, if I were with the refuting article's organization (an environmentally sensitive save the whales type) I'd have written a very similar article. I'm unconvinced.

I have spent a career in the auto industry on the design and planning side. I've seen the "bills" and investment that are associated with building, revising and sourcing automobiles and the plants that build them. I was Worldwide Powertrain Planner for GM and drove electric cars, cars powered by powdered coal, solar powered cars, etc as well a

should we send an EMT over to doug's house to check on him

[IdahoDoug]

<snicker>. I was banging away on the keyboard and must have hit post. As you can see, it may have been better left that way......

This topic really frosts my socks. The auto industry is giving us what WE THINK WE WANT, rather than doing their jobs and developing what is right for the planet. From a profit standpoint, they are exhibiting correct behavior for their stockholders. Perfectly acceptable. But if you think the product they're building by complete and utter coincidence happens to also be the best product they could build for the planet - you're the one smoking crack. Those two theoretical vehicles are as far apart right now as they ever were.

DougM

[semlin]

that post i agree with 100%. they give us what we really want, not what we claim we want.

[MiniPigg]

Another post on the Audi A2 Diesel TDI in the New York Times. Notice the date it was published.

It Gets 78 Miles a Gallon, but U.S. Snubs Diesel

And the A2's cousin.

Volkswagen Lupo's record attempt in Australia - AutoWeb News

And now something completely different.

The World’s Most Fuel Efficient Car: 285 MPG, Not A Hybrid : Gas 2.0

Posts tagged Diesel hybrid at AutoblogGreen



I used to have a post on the Humvee Diesel/Electric Hybrid using the VW TDI diesel engine.