[MDarius]

So here's a question for all you winter adventurer's / scout leaders:
What is the best way you have found to build a snow cave?

The local Boy Scouts are getting ready for the annual Klondike camp out and to get one of the awards you have to build a shelter and sleep in it. I have done the one where you stack your gear and then pack the snow around it, then pull your gear out. S-U-C-K-S! I have seen others with elaborate set ups, but the point is for the boys to learn how to do it in an emergency situation. You AINT gonna have plywood and snow shovels in an emergency situation.

Ideas? Pictures?

[bigndn]

Is the snow deep enough to tunnel into? Just remember the entry/exit is a small step lower than the interior platform. Don't forget a vent hole/stick to make vent hole. It should be large enough for you, your gear, and a small fire (if possible).

google 'snow shelter' and you'll get buttloads of ideas.

[LoveTractor]

U.S. Army Survival Manual FM 21-76 recommends:

From Ch.5-Basic Shelter
Tree-Pit Snow Shelter:
If you are in a cold, snow-covered area where evergreen trees grow and
you have a digging tool, you can make a tree-pit shelter.
To make this shelter—
Find a tree with bushy branches that provides overhead cover.
Dig out the snow around the tree trunk until you reach the depth
and diameter you desire, or until you reach the ground.
Pack the snow around the top and the inside of the hole to provide
support.
Find and cut other evergreen boughs. Place them over the top of the
pit to give you additional overhead cover. Place evergreen boughs in
the bottom of the pit for insulation.

And then from Ch.15 the Cold-Weather Survival section:

Snow Cave Shelter
The snow cave shelter is a most effective shelter because
of the insulating qualities of snow. Remember that it takes time and energy
to build and that you will get wet while building it. First, you need
to find a drift about 3 meters deep into which you can dig. While building
this shelter, keep the roof arched for strength and to allow melted
snow to drain down the sides. Build the sleeping platform higher than
the entrance. Separate the sleeping platform from the snow cave’s walls
or dig a small trench between the platform and the wall. This platform
will prevent the melting snow from wetting you and your equipment.
This construction is especially important if you have a good source of
heat in the snow cave. Ensure the roof is high enough so that you can sit
up on the sleeping platform. Block the entrance with a snow block or
other material and use the lower entrance area for cooking. The walls
and ceiling should be at least 30 centimeters thick. Install a ventilation
shaft. If you do not have a drift large enough to build a snow cave, you
can make a variation of it by piling snow into a mound large enough to
dig out.

Snow Trench Shelter
The idea behind this shelter is to get you below the snow
and wind level and use the snow’s insulating qualities. If you are in an
area of compacted snow, cut snow blocks and use them as overhead
cover. If not, you can use a poncho or other material. Build only one
entrance and use a snow block or rucksack as a door.

Snow Block and Parachute Shelter
Use snow blocks for the sides and parachute material for overhead
cover. If snowfall is heavy, you will have to clear snow
from the top at regular intervals to prevent the collapse of the parachute
material.

Snow House or Igloo
In certain areas, the natives frequently use this type of shelter as hunting and fishing shelters. They are efficient shelters but
require some practice to make them properly. Also, you must be in an
area that is suitable for cutting snow blocks and have the equipment
to cut them (snow saw or knife).

Lean-To Shelter
Construct this shelter in the same manner as for other environments;
however, pile snow around the sides for insulation.

Fallen Tree Shelter
To build this shelter, find a fallen tree and dig out the snow underneath
it. The snow will not be deep under the tree. If you must
remove branches from the inside, use them to line the floor.

Tree-Pit Shelter
Dig snow out from under a suitable large tree. It will not be as deep
near the base of the tree. Use the cut branches to line the shelter. Use
a ground sheet as overhead cover to prevent snow from falling off the
tree into the shelter. If built properly, you can have 360-degree visibility.
...

That enough for ya'?

To see the full document with illustrations: http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm

[Gold Boy]

may be a good idea to dig a small profile pit to exam the structure of the snow structure.

[LabRat11]

Have made and used a quinzee many a time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinzhee

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by LoveTractor

U.S. Army Survival Manual FM 21-76 recommends:

From Ch.5-Basic Shelter
Tree-Pit Snow Shelter:
If you are in a cold, snow-covered area where evergreen trees grow and
you have a digging tool, you can make a tree-pit shelter.
To make this shelter—
Find a tree with bushy branches that provides overhead cover.
Dig out the snow around the tree trunk until you reach the depth
and diameter you desire, or until you reach the ground.
Pack the snow around the top and the inside of the hole to provide
support.
Find and cut other evergreen boughs. Place them over the top of the
pit to give you additional overhead cover. Place evergreen boughs in
the bottom of the pit for insulation.

.....

To see the full document with illustrations: http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm

I'm a guessing that cutting the limbs off trees isn't going to go over well with the powers that be.
That said in an actual survival situation I think this is the shelter I'd go for, most protection for the least work.

[Colorado Boy-74-FJ40]

If it is sub zero, dig all the way to the ground. I took Arctic Survival training in Alaska. We lived in a snow cave for three days at 50 below zero. The Earth's surface under the snow is about 17 degrees. It is less than freezing point so it wont melt the snow however if you enclose the shelter over the bare ground, it actually "heats" the inside of the shelter to a much greater temperature than the out side air. 50 below versus 17 above...Big difference. One big thing to remember is do not work so hard as to break much of a sweat. "to sweat in the arctic is to die in the arctic" you will get hypothermia very easily when wet. take it slow, stay hydrated. and have fun!

[LoveTractor]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I'm a guessing that cutting the limbs off trees isn't going to go over well with the powers that be.

Hey. Survival of the fittest. If a tree can't defend itself in a life or death situation...

[squinty20]

Try this thing... http://www.grandshelters.com/

They do an igloo demo at an outdoor store in town. It's a really neat tool, and makes a very nice shelter. Not exactly along the lines of survival skills though. Guy lost in the woods, "oh let me pull out my igloo making tool..."

They rent them in town here, I'm going to do one this winter.

[Jomama]

Please, other than just the "how too" of building a cave.. Seek out appropriate help and training with regard to location & avalanche assement... The Wasatch/Cache Nat. Forests have great Avy forcast programs .... Both SLC and Logan have world class Avy experts working there....

Last group of boy scouts I heard about doing this did it up Logan canyon, in known avalanche paths, during a snow storm... Those "leaders" were so lucky no one was killed when the the snow let go an came down over the top of them...

The odds that anyone will actually use the snowcave building training in their real lives are non-existant compared to the odds that one of them may someday spend time playing in the mountains in areas or during times with severe avalanche risk...

[VTFJ40]

I made a "Quinzhee" (never knew it was called that until I read Labrats post) before and stayed in one for a week. With a good sun and a cold day while making it, my 220# ass could stand on top of it no problem.

Gotta make sure you keep the top of the entrance below the floor or sleeping level and you'll be warm on the coldest nights.

[Mars]

Depends a lot on how much snow coverage you have. If you have the luxury of having 6' or more of snow on the ground, tunneling into a hillside, and making a traditional snow cave is very warm and effective. Tunnel in the shape of a 'T' for a few feet to build your entryway, then continue to dig just the top section of the 'T' back into the hillside, leaving the bottom where it is. Expand as large as needed, then fill in the top half of your T to close in your tunnel...hard to explain....

Anyhow, works for me every year on back country ski trips in the sierra's. Nothing as liberating as winter touring with no tent!

Mars

[thekirk]

LoveTractor has obviously never been in the woods of the Northwest when the winds are blowing... Can you say "Widowmaker", boys and girls?

I've tried building one of those there tree shelters, in a survival course with the Army up on Mt. Rainer (Huck Creek Mountain Warfare Training Center, back in the day...). We discovered, in a windstorm, why this form of shelter needs to be carefully risk-managed. Seems one or two of the Douglas Fir upper limbs weren't quite as firmly attached to said Douglas Fir as you might wish for... Awakened to thunderous crash of a two-three hundred pound limb crashing to the ground at about two in the morning, from maybe 175 up in the tree we'd selected to build our shelter under. Landed about two feet away from one of our guys, who, needless to say, needed to change his drawers. We moved out into the middle of a clearing, and froze our asses off, the rest of the night.

Now, I'm not going to claim that the tree *planned* that midnight assault, but we were doing unpleasant things to the lower limbs, if you know what I mean.

Trees are a farkin' menace, when there's a windstorm anywhere in the Pacific Northwest. 'Taint like those nice, relatively low, well-behaved deciduous forests y'all have out east... I constantly have to point this fact out to the non-locals stationed here at Fort Lewis. Warned one of my bosses, once, and he thought I was BSing him--right up until the limb fell and crushed the roof of his HMMWV. Then, it was all "HOLY S___!!! We gotta get the troops outa the trees...".

Amazing how personal experience is the only teacher some people will accept, sometimes...

[LoveTractor]

Originally Posted by thekirk

LoveTractor has obviously never been in the woods of the Northwest when the winds are blowing...

I never said I'd built one. I copied and pasted from the United States Army Survival Field Manual 21-76 that you were trained from since you were in the Army.
Your experience is now duly footnoted in my copy.

[thekirk]

LOL... LoveTractor, didn't mean it like that... I was responding to your "Hey. Survival of the fittest. If a tree can't defend itself in a life or death situation..."

Those damn trees ain't defenseless, I'm telling ya. Stand out in one of our first-growth stands of trees out here, in a major windstorm, and you'll understand how the Orcs felt about the Ents, in The Lord of the Rings...

[MDarius]

Originally Posted by Jomama

Please, other than just the "how too" of building a cave.. Seek out appropriate help and training with regard to location & avalanche assement... The Wasatch/Cache Nat. Forests have great Avy forcast programs .... Both SLC and Logan have world class Avy experts working there....

Last group of boy scouts I heard about doing this did it up Logan canyon, in known avalanche paths, during a snow storm... Those "leaders" were so lucky no one was killed when the the snow let go an came down over the top of them...

The odds that anyone will actually use the snowcave building training in their real lives are non-existant compared to the odds that one of them may someday spend time playing in the mountains in areas or during times with severe avalanche risk...

Thanks for the advice. This is at an established and maintained Boy Scout camp. No avalanche problem here. And actually, being in Utah, a lot of kids do back country ski / snowboarding and snowmobiling. It's actually quite reasonable to expect that someday one of them will need this skill. Especially with all the dumb scout leaders that take them to back countyr areas for an adventure. :grin. I'm pretty careful.

''Sweating in the arctic means dying in the arctic.''
AMEN BROTHER!! This is EXACTLY why I am looking for better suggestions. My previous attempts resulted in much sweat and labor.

The snow is currently not very good. The camp will be in January and it is very likely the area will get a couple good snows in between.

I enjoy winter camping and like outdoor survival, so I kind of dig this sort of stuff anyways, outside of this particular klondike camp. My belief is that if you spend any time away from civilization or the beaten path, you need to be knowledgeable and prepared for the worst case...within reason.

Thanks for all the suggestions, keep 'em coming!

[MDarius]

Originally Posted by thekirk

LOL... LoveTractor, didn't mean it like that... I was responding to your "Hey. Survival of the fittest. If a tree can't defend itself in a life or death situation..."

Those damn trees ain't defenseless, I'm telling ya. Stand out in one of our first-growth stands of trees out here, in a major windstorm, and you'll understand how the Orcs felt about the Ents, in The Lord of the Rings...

the Orcs had nothing on an unruly group of Boy Scouts! You're right, the camp would frown on using the trees...which is kind of a shame. You teach the boys, ''This is the best way to do it, but you can't actually practice and do it this way because you might harm a tree.'' I'm all for conservation and smart use and all that, but I think a lot of lessons are lost in the name of conservation.

[LoveTractor]

Originally Posted by thekirk

LOL... LoveTractor, didn't mean it like that... I was responding to your "Hey. Survival of the fittest. If a tree can't defend itself in a life or death situation..."

Those damn trees ain't defenseless, I'm telling ya. Stand out in one of our first-growth stands of trees out here, in a major windstorm, and you'll understand how the Orcs felt about the Ents, in The Lord of the Rings...

Ohhhhhhhhh. That threw me for a spin.
"He disagrees with everything I only copied and pasted from the Army manual, but he was in the Army?"

That "survival of the fittest" was all sarcasm. Believe or not, I've been hurt by trees. They threw me out of a couple as a boy.

[Jomama]

Originally Posted by Lucy

Thanks for the advice. This is at an established and maintained Boy Scout camp. No avalanche problem here. And actually, being in Utah, a lot of kids do back country ski / snowboarding and snowmobiling. It's actually quite reasonable to expect that someday one of them will need this skill. Especially with all the dumb scout leaders that take them to back countyr areas for an adventure. :grin. I'm pretty careful.

Its good to hear its in a safe zone... I was familiar with the area up logan canyon where the near distaster happend, and that was nothing more than they should not of been there at that time... There is basically one trend in avalanche fatalites in recent years... And its that, despite better and more opportunities for Avy class's, proper education for winter B/C recreation has not kept up with the increased participation in the activites (and the expansion in the typical activites... 20 yrs ago the snowmachines just weren't capable of what they are now)...

Although there has been a shift in who is typically getting themselves in trouble..
While mountaineers and B/C skiers have seen a reduction in avalanche fatalaties among their groups... Snowboarders (to a degree) and in particular snowshoers and snowmachiners are still drastically on the rise..


A beacon class would also make for an excellent "activity" as well (in the interest of education, there generally are loaners available thru the local avy course trainers) in addition to primer class's on avy assesment and snow science..

Good luck

[re_guderian]

Built several in Washington as a Boy Scout, but how do you do this in the dry powder in UT?