Battery Isolators...

[mabrodis]

I think the posts from Mobi-arc are EXACTLY what's needed on here. His post was not a "I have the best price, buy it from me". His post was technical about why some isolators are better than others and why the one they are making they feel is the best, not just the cheapest, etc, but actual real knowledge about a better way to make a device.

IMO that is exactly what a vendor should do, yes even on here. If I'm about to buy a rear bumper by so-and-so and ask for advice, and Christo writes in and tells me that I really should look at his bumper before dropping the money on the other because they have done tests and they think their's is a better design and will last better 4wheeling. That is EXACTLY what I would want to hear, would Christo be pushing his product, not one bit, he is introducing his product and giving you options.

Let's just say that Mobi-arc had not posted anything in this thread, a few people go out and buy isolators from reading on here. Then a month or so down the road, we discover the isolators by Mobi-arc, and people PM him and say why didn't you atleast mention you were building one that is WAY better than any of the others???

You can't have it both ways people, if you want vendors on here with real knowledge, real experience then you have to be able to listen to them. Blindly do what they say? No, ofcourse not, but I for one would rather hear from someone who is selling these products and knows first-hand what they would recommend versus a bunch of other people chatting about things they don't fully understand.

There are plenty of boards with people jabbering about crap they don't know or understand, let this be a board where we have real experts and LET THEM TALK/EXPLAIN/TEACH.

Ok, off the soapbox, just pisses me off when people get yelled at for helping others make a good decision.

[woody]

additionally, Mobi's been on the board for about 9 or more months...if I'd had an issue with the posts, believe me, I'd have said it

Hell, even I follow the unspoken Vendor "rules"......lol

However, once it's ready, I'd expect a pimp in the Vendor corner....

[Beowulf]

>> just pisses me off when people get yelled at for helping others make a good decision. <<

Gee Brodis, seems like you're the only one yelling.


Scott posted that they are about to release a great product that has better specs than the competion.

I politely asked for a comparison to the one that Yomama uses and recommended to me as I am in the market to buy one.

He replied that the product isn't ready and that we should call the engineers if we want specs or a comparison to other products.

I politely asked for the engineers to take a few minutes and reply here in this thread so anyone that is interested would benefit from those answers and those answers would be here for people to read a year from now rather than evaporating with a phone call. I still feel this is a reasonable request for someone that is targeting this specific market.

He replied that the product isn't ready, specs are not available, and the engineers are too busy to answer any questions on-line.

I politely suggested that future marketing hype be moved to the Vendor section. Here or the Tech sections would be a good place once they can discuss the technical details of the product.

Now if you can read his posts in this thread and make an informed decision on the *facts* of why the Mobi-Arc isolator is truly better than all the other products then you're clairvoyant because he hasn't posted any hard data to back up the marketing claim.

And if that pi$$e$ you off then that's your problem.

-B-

[Rich]

Check this out: http://www.bluesea.com/product.asp?P...58&l1=7458&l2=

Great specs and guaranteed forever. Who will match that? Less than $200. They also have a non automatic verson that sells for a bit over $100. Of the battery paralleling solenoids I have researched Bluesea products are at the very top of my list.

Their manual battery switches are also the best I have seen.

[the shed guy]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

yada yada yada -B-

Do you think we couldnt work out what was said, so recapped your version for us?

or are you trying to sway us to your way of thinking?

If YOU want the info, you know where to find it, as Mobi has told you, if you dont want it, because it isnt on your terms, go buy what suits.....

[ian]

May I suggest checking your Wheaties for piss prior to taking the first bite? Chill

I reacted the same way Beo did.. first post was a bunch of hype with no tech. I was suprised when Mobi was reluctant to give any technical details as to what is different about the *design / engineering* of their product.

To be honest, if Mobi's company didn't already produce the Mobi-Arc and he hadn't posted a picture of the product, I'd be inclined to think he was full of it. However, the information that has been posted will keep me interested in the product. I hope that within the next few weeks, the company can find the time to post some details.

This is a great place for *free*, *directed* marketing. I would think that the reception of Mobi's post and the interest it generated would have resulted in a better response with the requested details. It's not like we're asking for much. I value my time just as much as Mobi's engineers. The difference is that I'm not trying to sell Mobi something.

[mobi-arc]

Wow. Let's all play nice. The only spec which which should mean anything to anybody is how much loss is there through the rectifier. As stated below, we've measured 70 millivolts at 200a. Those who have an appreciation for engineering are impressed. Those who don't, the number means absolutely nothing. Let me put it in perspective: there's more resistance at 200 amps through a 16" piece of #4 welding cable than through the MOBI-ISOLATOR. At 200 amps, the MOBI-ISOLATOR will dissipate 5 to 10 watts which is nothing. The price is soft but will likely be under $200. The package is soft but the enclosure will be approximately 4x1x1 and requires no ventilation or airflow. We're providing this info as a "heads-up" to those who are in the market for isolators. We're getting close and should have production units available in the next 30-60 days. Those who have an interest, our product may be worth considering when making an educated decision.

Thanks guys.

Scott

[Rich]

Scott, why do you say "The only spec which which should mean anything to anybody is how much loss is there through the rectifier." ?

Depending on the implmentation requirements, there are a number of significant factors. The voltage drop across switching or isolation mechanism is only one of many factors that need to be dealt with in order to provide an effective solution.

[mobi-arc]

Originally Posted by Rich

Scott, why do you say "The only spec which which should mean anything to anybody is how much loss is there through the rectifier." ?

Depending on the implementation requirements, there are a number of significant factors. The voltage drop across switching or isolation mechanism is only one of many factors that need to be dealt with in order to provide an effective solution.

Clearly there are lots of factors when making a decision. An isolator is a one-way valve for electricity. Like eveything engineered, there's always a trade-off.

The solenoid is a mechanical disconnect. The upside is price and simplicity, the downside is it's guaranteed to wear out and become less efficient over time. The silicon rectifier and schottkey rectifier are great because you now have no moving parts when creating the one way valve. No moving parts is generally accepted as a way of increasing product longevity. The downside: there are inherent losses with those components. As an example, the isolator manufactured by Sure Power (www.mobi-arc.com/comp.jpg) drops essentially one volt at 100a and manifests this in the form of heat which then has to be dissipated. Schottkey units are more effecient, but they are extremely cost prohibitive and drop about half as much as the silicon rectifier which again is dissipated as heat. This lack of efficiency is why most isolators are potted and bonded to three to four pounds of aluminum fins.

Now the MOBI-ISOLATOR, in comparison to the methods I've described, is much more efficient. It will be much smaller. It won't be the most moderately-priced isolator on the market. In our opinion, it's better in many different ways and will carry a price appropriate for such product.

Like anything you guys buy, you'll compare it other things on the market and factor in variables like, price, ease of installation, performance, efficiency, warranty, and application criteria. If you find value in the product, appreciate the engineering that's gone into it, and serves your purposes, then it may be worth considering. If it's not the right fit, if you prefer solenoids or isolators with blue annodized aluminum fins because they look cool, then the MOBI-ISOLATOR may not be the choice for you.

When we've put together a few production units, take pictures, and put together a spec sheet, it'll be available on our website and I'll post it here for those who care.

Again, this information was simply meant as a "heads-up, we've got something cool in the pipeline." We weren't trying to be coy, cause commotion, or use a "non-vendor" thread as a distribution channel. We simply saw "battery isolator" as a topic and thought we'd drop a "heads-up" post.

Scott

[desertdude]

do I smell a group buy... with a "Trail" discount which will help intital marketing this thing?

[mabrodis]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

And if that pi$$e$ you off then that's your problem.

-B-

Agreed, sorry, that was builtup from other intances too, wasn't directed at anyone in peticular just venting (maybe we should have a Venting part of the forum) . Anyhoo, it sounds like a good product and I'm glad Mobi-dude posted here about it.

Now about the beta testing discount..

I'd be willing to 'Trail Rate' it. So after my testing you can market it as 'Trail Rated', seems to work for Jeep, and they make crap, so you're already better off..

[drohweder]

Man! Let the guy be excited about his product! Be patient and I bet there is a TLCA discount for us all!

I just picked up a new SurePower Model 952 for $26 on ebay. I was all set to do the solinoid but it was $47 at napa and so I held off. I am sure woody is certain this POS will turn to rust in no time but I think I am going to give it a shot. I have a standard Delco alt so I don't think I am over the 95amp alternater max.

Now the questions begin again about setting this up. I want to keep the main battery for the starter and run all aux off the other. I also thought about just keeping all the current wiring on the main battery and adding all additional stuff to the aux. My cruiser is pretty much got its stock wiring harness and I just want to run a second fuse box for the stereo, future lights and any future mods like the winch and fridge. Can I still use a marine switch with this system? How do I fix that regulator feedback problem?

[Riley]

Since I work in a electronics engineering group, I thought I'd add my two bits...

- Seems kinda weird to not let one of the mobi engineers spend 15 minutes here to answer some questions. For sure that's a lot more effecient than discussing the same questions over and over on the phone. 15 minutes is all that it would take. Getting input and contact from end users is always good for the design team. Plus posting here is much easier to limit on how much time is spent in end-customer contact.

- Assuming that the isolator is only used for charging, why are people rating the current handling in term of 100amps? how about 10 to 20 amps? seems more typical of charge currents.

- seems to me all that's required is a switcher/convertor to provide full isolation from the 12 volt main system the to the alternate backup/seperate battery. That's how I would approach this problem but perhaps a 10 amp switcher would be too expensive?

I'm not too crazy about using relays to connect the 2 batteries during charging because the batteries will be a different voltages and simply connecting 2 different batteries together in parallel is not a good thing (it will pull the higher battery down). I like the idea of running a isolator just for charging the second battery assuming it's running a bunch of equipment seperate than the other systems on the truck.

[Rich]

Riley, I feel that there has been more sales pitch than tech info offered from Mobi and until real facts are published it pretty much remains fluff to me.

Anyway, there are two related considerations when sizing the current capacity of the device that parallels the battery. One is what is the max current that the alternator will put out to charge totally dead batteries. I believe the stock 80 alternator in the late '90s models is rated at 80 amps. The other consideration is if the paralleling device also supplies power to devices connected to the batteries. Then you need to size the device for the maxium load. The starter and a winch would be the two big load devices. A winch can draw over 400 amps, on an intermittent basis.

Once I get my hands on a proper crimper for 2/0 wire, I'm going to install a dual battery system sized for winching. I will use a manual marine switch to select between either battery or both batteries to supply all power to all devices. So the switch will need to be able to handle the draw from a winch. Bluesea offers a switch that can handle that kind of load.

If I decide to include, in addition to manual control, automatic parallel charging for both batteries I will use the Bluesea electronic solenoid.

I will run two identical batteries in order to avoid overcharging / charging issues when they are run in parallel. I have used a simliar system in a boat for years with no issues. Normally I keep the batteries in parallel and only separate them when I am going to be using power for a period of time with the engine off.

[mobi-arc]

Guys,

We just got back from the Off-Road Expo in Pomona (Los Angeles) where we introduced a pre-production MOBI-ISOLATOR unit. We set up a test fixture using an array of airplane landing lights to create a load that could be switched either through the MOBI-ISOLATOR, or an industry-popular Sure Power Isolator (www.mobi-arc.com/comp.jpg) . It was powered by batteries and when switched on, the lights, through the MOBI-ISOLATOR, would draw 90a with a voltage drop of .035 volts. When switched to the Sure Power, current decreased to 82a with a voltage drop of .946 volts; the 8 amps get dissipated as heat through the four pounds of aluminum strapped to the Sure Power unit. The MOBI-ISOLATOR was over 25 TIMES more efficient. Obviously, we're excited that the technology used in the MOBI-ARC Control Units yields amazing efficiency when used for isolation purposes. We're still waiting for the graphics people but hope to complete the packaging and testing in the next couple weeks. We hope to get some pictures taken, put together a stats page, and spin out a brochure in the next couple of weeks as well. I'll keep you guys informed.

Scott

[drohweder]

Are you going to have a Sure-Power trade in option??

[Beowulf]

>> We hope to get some pictures taken, put together a stats page, <<
>> and spin out a brochure in the next couple of weeks as well. <<
>> I'll keep you guys informed. <<

It's been over 2 weeks. Any information?

-B-

[Beowulf]

>> We hope to get some pictures taken, put together a stats page, <<
>> and spin out a brochure in the next couple of weeks as well. <<
>> I'll keep you guys informed. <<

Did this Mobi-Arc isolator ever make it out of engineering? It was supposed to be in production now and we've heard nothing more about it.

-B-

[mobi-arc]

We haven't released it yet and until patent documentation is finalized and submitted, it can't be released without screwing ourselves. The package CAD's are done. Unit will be housed in an aluminum anodized package as opposed to a plastic encapsulation shell; purley for aesthetic purposes. The PCB will be frozen and sent out for manufacture by the end of next week. We've made some changes to the internals so the next generation MOBI-ARC product line could share parts with the MOBI-POWER isolator, thus providing better economies of scale. Size of the package will be 2.5" x 5/8".

We're really excited to get it complete and out the door, but our excitment is tempered by our desire to plan long-term and get everything set up just-right.

Artwork is done and can be viewed at www.mobi-arc.com/isolatorlabel.jpg

[desertdude]

Flashy art work...

[Hltoppr]

I went with a Sure-Power and an Optima Blue top marine to power the fridge...works great so far!

-H-

[RUSH55]

Hey guys, this thread seems to be filled with some electrically knowledged folk, so I'll pitch this Q on this thread cause it's kinda related.
I have a 77 FJ55, that I put a 100 amp Speacter Alt in, when the stock one went out. Once I installed the new alt., I had this problem when at idle, the amperage would drop to the bottom of the negative side (on a stock amp meter guage). I hooked up a dual batt. system with an isolator. The aux. batt. runs my winch and aux. lights. Even after hooking up the dual batt. and isolator, I still have this problem. The other part of the problem is that at night, with lights on, and at cruising rpm's (~2000-2500 rpms), the amperage will drop, then suddenly jump up to high on the positive side of the guage, then drop, then jump, ect. until it just feels like leveling out, or staying in the negative.
What I have heard, but not exactly expanded upon, is that the stock wiring can't handle the increase in amps, and develops too much heat or something, causing strange charging system behavior.
I have a stock type external voltage regulator, everything is basically stock except for the 200 amp alt and the dual batt. setup.
Does anyone have any idea what the hell the problem is and what I can doo about it?
Thanks!

[toy60]

I have manual system I really believe in the KISS principle.
I have the switch mounted near the glovebox and joined between the batteries with a 75 amp fused wire. The second battery runs the winch and is isolated by the switch.

It Works Its simple and its Cheep!!!!!

[RUSH55]

You have your main batt. hot cable going to your alt.??????

[toy60]

Yeah not standard cruiser alt in the old dear. It has the reg built into the alternator.
You ar right, normally it goes up to the regulator first.


Hope nobody takes me literally and modifies their wiring I would feel really bad about that!!

[lovetoski]

Was in a marine store today getting some electrical stuff, and talked to one of the guys about dual batteries. They do a lot of these on boats....

I was asking him about the 4 way switches that are so affordable. $25 bucks, some cable, a battery, and you're set up w/duals. He said they call these "1,2, kill" switches - because of the number of times that people leave them in the "both" position, then drain both batteries.

He really likes a new product from bluesea (great stuff by the way) that looks interesting. It works mostly automatically, but has an overide function. It's a smart solenoid, that connects the two batteries when there is a charging source (ie the engine is running, and the alt is crankin