Is ANYONE Still Interested In Traveling In Baja???

[Boston Mangler]

Hey Guys

Kind of just a "discussion topic" right now, not a trip planner just yet.

I am curious if any of you are still interested in traveling in Baja?

Seems all of my close (non land cruiser) friends that i travel with all the time have sworn it off and dont want to go because of the crap on the news. I mean, ALL of them, not a single one wants to go anymore! :(

How about you guys? Thoughts?

Once it cools down a bit, i want to start planning some trips down there again!

As a general statement: "Would you guys be interested"?

Thinking of a fall camping/wheeling/fishing trip to Gonzaga, like we did last year: AMAZING TRIP, CHECK OUT THE PICS

And also some more exploring of the mountains.

Would be the standard 5-6 rig min/max, cross only in tecate, day driving only, standard safety precautions

Anyone?

Thanks

OH, AND BEFORE ITS ASKED, I AM THINKING I MIGHT STILL HAVE THE 100 Series!

[Ulyses]

I definitely would like to go, I have nothing against Baja, although I'm not naive of the situation, I like to think that most of the people down there are just concerned on going about their business. So, work permitting I'll go any chance I get

[philos1]

I'm always wanting to go. I make it a point to keep driving until I'm past Maneadero. Mainly I'm into surf adventures, but in any case, I think about going quite often.

[Shahram]

I'm also interested, and have been back and forth on this subject so many times, it's maddening.

My last trip to Baja went (nearly) without hitch. The people, the police, the military, were all top notch, friendly, and we had no "social" incidents. But the explosion of bad news stories out of the area since then are disheartening and terrifying. It seems as though there is no protection for tourists and no law for those that prey on them.

My circle of friends, all seasoned travelers, all Baja aficionados, have gone back and forth on this for months. Which routes are safest? Which areas are safest? Which methods are most troublesome to bandits, thieves, corrupt cops, potential violent predators? What's the minimum safe number of vehicles? What's the minimum safe number of people?

In the end, the discussion often leads to "Is it worth all the trouble?" The extra planning, the back-watching, the hassles, the added stress, all for a good-sized payoff of what California looked like a hundred years ago, or hollow, uncrowded surf, or great fishing?

We're divided, about 50/50, yes and no.

I'm torn between the two camps; I've got a family that depends on me and can't get too cavalier with my safety. On the other hand, I see lots of people going down there and having a great adventure, just as I did last year. Families, even! With kids! What have they got that I don't? Am I just falling into the American media fear trap?

I've been tempting my brother to do a motorcycle trip to Gonzaga with me, the two of us trail riding all the way down, with minimal gear. He won't hear of it--he's a single father of two, and his boys depend on him. He feels that traveling Baja is an unmitigated risk, one that can't be justified. He can get the same rush and head-clearing in a trip to the Sierras or Death Valley, and not have to worry about extra insurance or corrupt cops, and where bandits and thieves are not only few and far between, but where the mark can arm himself without risking serious jail time in a foreign land.

I might take the chance to go down there again. I really loved Gonzaga Bay. I'd really like to see Punta Cabras again. I miss the uncrowded waves, I miss the incredible views, the pre-social control era experience, long gone in my own part of the country. I miss Mexico. Baja is like a former mistress--I miss her, I'm angry that she no longer cares whether I live or die, and I can't stop thinking about her and fingering her phone number in my pocket.

There, does that answer your question?

[Giulitto]

^
That is what I am thinking.......sort of. Never was intimate with Mexico but do see it as a great exploration but also being a father I do not want to go down there with out being able to defend myself. Me and Money went for a day trip and had no troubles what so ever, yet with the increase in tourism violence I have no reason to chance it. Sad because reading all of the great posts from the ones who have enjoyed travelling down there really gives me an itch.

[Boston Mangler]

Thanks for the input guys!

PLEASE also keep into perspective the details of the stories you are hearing about on the news.

My friend Chris Hall (was part of the Corona Class1 team with me) was the father/driver of the truck and family that got kidnapped last year coming home from the Baja1000. The story made huge headlines and scared a lot people. I feel that incident is what started the whole "Fear Of Baja" thing. He is a good friend of mine, i have traveled baja with him for years, and i feel for his family, BUT being a very seasoned "Baja Vet" he broke some key rules when this incident happend:

-He was driving @ 2am
-He was traveling solo
-He was driving a 2007 F350 all modded up
-He was towing a HUGE McMillin Racing trailer.

No disrespect meant to him or his family, but seriously, thats a roling target for crime anywhere!

Also, the similar story to his was the surfers from SD, same scenario, 4-5am, pitch black, flashy trucks with tons of gear, traveling near TJ, cmon now, a little common sense? TJ is bad news anyway ya look @ it, nevermind @ 4am!

I still feel its plenty safe to travel in Baja with some common sense rules.

Here are my RULES that i try my best to stick to when in Baja:

-99% of the crime/violence you are hearing about is in Tijuana or Rosarito, simple commen sense, dont go there
-There is NO REASON whatsoever to ever go to Tijuana, EVER
-Travel with a mininum of 4 vehicles
-Do not drive @ night, period
-ONLY Cross in Tecate, NO EXCEPTIONS! (i add 2+ hours to some of my trips following this rule, but i feel its that important)
-2m radio coms in each vehicle, CBs simply dont have the range down there, often times we are spaced apart quite a bit because of dust.
-Stay together as a group, IE, no one leaves camp solo to "run to the store", etc...
-Travel $ is well hidden, keep $40 or so handy, in case
-@ Militaty checkpoints, as soon as your clear, pull over and wait for your group, stay together
-Parking lot attendants are ALL crooks, DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT leave your car attended because the restauraunt or hotel says they have "Security", these are the crooks!
-ALWAYS pay attention to your change, double check your change when paying for gas, food, etc.. using the 10:1 rule. Exchange rate is always flucuating but its always around 10:1
-99% of the locals down there love visitors, talk with them as best ya can, share extra food or water you might have

All i can think of, off the top of my head, i will update/edit the post as i remember them

Once the weather cools off a bit, i hope to be going back at least once a month!

Anyone else care to chime in?

Originally Posted by Shahram

In the end, the discussion often leads to "Is it worth all the trouble?" The extra planning, the back-watching, the hassles, the added stress, all for a good-sized payoff of what California looked like a hundred years ago, or hollow, uncrowded surf, or great fishing?

I hear ya on that one. For me, YES, it is well worth the payoff. I grew up in Boston but often traveled to New Hampshire and Maine, where camping is camping, NOT where camping is making a reservation 6 months in advance for a postage stamp size campsite with 1000 other people with "Cruise America RV's" running their generators all night. Camping is not taking a shuttle to a trailhead and hiking a trail saying excuse me every 2 minutes cause its so crowded.

For me, camping and wheeling is all about getting away from it all, exploring, and adventure. I have traveled a good portion of CA and wheeled a good majority of the trails and while Death Valley is easily my fav, there is still the "No Dogs, No Fires, No Weapons, No Groups bigger then 6 trucks, No Camping Here, No This, No That", all the rules (which i know are for the greater good) kind of take away from the whole experience.

For me, i absolutely LOVE Baja and everything about it and want to keep going back as much as possible!

For anyone that was on our Feb trip to Mikes, Laguna Hansen, and The Observatory, you know exactly what i am talking about!

Try pulling a trip like that off in the states! HA, NO WAY!

Anyway, good thread, lets hear more input

[e9999]

I'm not going for a bit. Yea, yea, I know the odds of trouble are really low etc.

For one thing, I think that not going down is about the only way we have to have the powers that be down there to rectify the situation. Enough business folks complaining about loss of tourism income and they will finally try to do something about it. You keep travelling down and spending your $, nothing will change and likely will get worse. So, I'm blacklisting them for the betterment of the place and as a favor to fellow travellers!

[Boston Mangler]

Originally Posted by e9999

For one thing, I think that not going down is about the only way we have to have the powers that be down there to rectify the situation. Enough business folks complaining about loss of tourism income and they will finally try to do something about it. You keep travelling down and spending your $, nothing will change and likely will get worse. So, I'm blacklisting them for the betterment of the place and as a favor to fellow travellers!

Point noted and partially agreed with!

[calstyl2]

Originally Posted by e9999

I'm not going for a bit. Yea, yea, I know the odds of trouble are really low etc.

For one thing, I think that not going down is about the only way we have to have the powers that be down there to rectify the situation. Enough business folks complaining about loss of tourism income and they will finally try to do something about it. You keep travelling down and spending your $, nothing will change and likely will get worse. So, I'm blacklisting them for the betterment of the place and as a favor to fellow travellers!

Werd, Had some friends beach camping South of Ensinada, bad things happened to them and Mexico will never see my money, Id rather ship a truck to Costa Rica, and Im not real partial to some of the locals for both sides of the border who come up to TDS and Truckhaven and act like total assholes throwing beer cans all over the place and leaving trash. Lots of Baja plates at Truckhaven this year.

[Dan2722]

I am still going down. I have a surf trip planned in September and for the first time in 15 years will be staying at a hostel as a safety precaution instead of camping where we find the surf.

I was a little freaked by the incident last year at Quatro Casas. I have surfed and camped here at least a half dozen times over the years with no hassles. I came to know some of the boat ranch crew, a few ex-pats, and felt safe there. It will be a while before I go back there or stay near Colonet.

I now travel with at least 3-4 vehicles instead of going solo with my brother. This year will be the first that all vehicles will have radios.

Kevin I would love to join you guys for a trip in the future but I only have the CB radio right now.

Baja is something that gets in your blood and you can't stay away from. As far as the violence goes I think some parts of the United States are just as bad. Just ask the girl that spun out on I-5 last year near camp pendelton in the middle of the night and then was raped on the side of the road by a so called good samaritan. Sometimes we need to look in our own backyard to put things in perspective.

[Boston Mangler]

Originally Posted by Dan2722

Kevin I would love to join you guys for a trip in the future but I only have the CB radio right now.

Ya got plenty of time to get a 2m! I dont have one in the 100 either, YET, will be installing one before we go though, for sure!

Also, we modify the radios so that they can work on "Race Freqs" that are 100% legal to use without a license!

Originally Posted by Dan2722

Baja is something that gets in your blood and you can't stay away from. As far as the violence goes I think some parts of the United States are just as bad. Just ask the girl that spun out on I-5 last year near camp pendelton in the middle of the night and then was raped on the side of the road by a so called good samaritan. Sometimes we need to look in our own backyard to put things in perspective.

Exactly!

[Bluetribal]

I am still down to go, I have been to Baja a # of times about half on race weekends. I am really interested in exploring the Mtn's like you guys did this past winter since I have yet to get up to those areas, I've only been to San Felipe or Erendira on the Pacific side.
A buddy and I just went solo in my Cruiser for the Baja 250 in March and we had a blast. We felt very safe and camped right on the beach in between two camp sites, I mean why pay for a camp site when it's FREE just a few hundred feet away in some soft soft beach sand!

[Boston Mangler]

Originally Posted by Bluetribal

I am still down to go, I have been to Baja a # of times about half on race weekends. I am really interested in exploring the Mtn's like you guys did this past winter since I have yet to get up to those areas,

Great! I am down to go as soon as the weather breaks a bit. I got a great loop trip we can do to sample "All of Baja"

Originally Posted by Bluetribal

I've only been to San Felipe or Erendira on the Pacific side.

If you like San Felipe, you will LOVE Gonzaga Bay! Personally, i think San Felipe is over crowded, kinda dirty, very americanized and the prices are equal to or more then the US. Still, i have some good friends that LOVE SF and go multiple times a year.

Originally Posted by Bluetribal

A buddy and I just went solo in my Cruiser for the Baja 250 in March and we had a blast. We felt very safe and camped right on the beach in between two camp sites,

Ditto, we were there too!

Originally Posted by Bluetribal

I mean why pay for a camp site when it's FREE just a few hundred feet away in some soft soft beach sand!

Yeah, i got spoiled and got "broken in" with Baja being my first west coast camping/wheeling experience quickly after moving here from Boston.

My first few west coast camping experiences were in remote areas of baja in the woods and on beachs, miles away from anyone else.

The more camping i did in the insanely overcrowded CA the more i loved Baja!

Again, camping to me is getting away from it all, not sitting next to 1000 "Cruiser America" RVs running their generators all night 10ft from your tent!

Yosemite is probably one of the most scenic places i have ever been, but the whole 6 month in advance reservations, RVs everywhere, and saying "Excuse Me" every 2 mins when hiking 1/2 dome cause the trail is so freaking crowded, totally killed the experience for me, same thing with the Grand Canyon

Yeah, i know there are plenty of cool remote places to visit in the US, but i live 15 mins from the Border!

[landcruising]

I have not met any of the 80's crew but I did spend a bit of time in Mex in my younger days. I have not been back for years for reasons I have stated in other threads. Camp robbed, bandits, federaly bribes and bad gas all in one trip just south of San Felipe. Not to mention bad Rosarta Ensenda Bike rides with booby traps and no medical care. I also used to attend the Estero Beach vollyball tournament, the Corona Open party in Salsa E Puetes (sp) and many trips to a friends place 30 miles south of San Felipe. That being said I would still like to go down again, but only when things cool down.

The local Beach and Toys TLCA group has been discussing this a lot lately. One of our members is a co owner of a bar in San Felipe and spends about half of his time there. He has a good point, all the types of things that have been happening down there are happening in the US, surfer beatings, rape, robberies. The only difference is the level of protection and enforcement we have here.

When we were robbed and hit by bandits the local police basically laughed at us and federalies fined us for speeding and were bribed with food and drinks.

Things may be different with a larger group like 4-6 vehicles, but until the drug wars cool down I will be avoiding it for a while. Because either way you go you will be traveing through ther teritory.

Just my 2 cents.

[Boston Mangler]

Hey There

I havent met you and dont know you, so please dont take offense to my questions about your statements, but i have a few, to clear some things up.

Originally Posted by landcruising

I have not met any of the 80's crew but I did spend a bit of time in Mex in my younger days. I have not been back for years for reasons I have stated in other threads. Camp robbed, bandits, federaly bribes and bad gas all in one trip just south of San Felipe.

Was your camp "ROBBED" or was stuff just stolen when you left it unattended? "Robbed" means they showed weapons or threatened you and removed stuff in your presence. I am guessing that didnt happen and stuff was just stolen while unattended, correct? Not to sound like an ass, but common sense would tell me not to leave anything unattended in a poor country!

Bandits? Robbing you @ gunpoint or stealing stuff left unattended?

Federaly bribes? Sure they were actual Federalis or just cops pretending to be? Federalies are usually the only NON crooked cops down there, in my past experience.

Bad gas? Was it from a real Pemex or from pepes hut out of a milk jug? All the bad gas experiences i have heard from have been from people getting it from sources other then a Pemex, and also one friend of mine had his truck filled with Diesel @ a pemex in Ensenada, and the truck was NOT diesel!

Originally Posted by landcruising

Not to mention bad Rosarta Ensenda Bike rides with booby traps and no medical care.

Anything with the words Rosarito or Ensenada are trouble and we stay far away from there and never stop

Originally Posted by landcruising

I also used to attend the Estero Beach vollyball tournament, the Corona Open party in Salsa E Puetes (sp) and many trips to a friends place 30 miles south of San Felipe. That being said I would still like to go down again, but only when things cool down.

Estero Beach resort is one of the biggest targets for thieves @ the races, always tons of reports of people getting their stuff stolen cause they left it out in the open because they saw security guards, again, common sense goes a long way here!

Originally Posted by landcruising

The local Beach and Toys TLCA group has been discussing this a lot lately. One of our members is a co owner of a bar in San Felipe and spends about half of his time there. He has a good point, all the types of things that have been happening down there are happening in the US, surfer beatings, rape, robberies. The only difference is the level of protection and enforcement we have here.

Yeah, and the problems happening down there are also pretty standard for any tourist town when you think about it. How many punkass bitch wannabe surfers get beat up and mugged each day in PB? Answer, ALOT of them, read the paper! Rapes? Same thing, read the SD paper!

Originally Posted by landcruising

When we were robbed and hit by bandits the local police basically laughed at us and federalies fined us for speeding and were bribed with food and drinks.

Care to elaborate on this via email or PM? I highly doubt it was real federalies man, they are looking for drugs and guns and dont mess with speeders. Lots of folks call all the police down there federalies, which isnt true,

Originally Posted by landcruising

Things may be different with a larger group like 4-6 vehicles, but until the drug wars cool down I will be avoiding it for a while. Because either way you go you will be traveing through ther teritory. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, i learned very early on, that if some basic rules (that i stated above) and common sense are used that you will be fine. No offense, but leaving stuff unattended anywhere in unacceptable in my book, nevermind a poor country. For what its worth, the 3 places i have had stuff stolen from my camp were in the US (Yosemite, Joshua Tree, and Borrego). All 3 times was because i left stuff unattended trying to give the human race benefit of the doubt, well, i can honestly say, that i never leave ANYTHING unattended ANYWHERE now!

Thanks for your two cents.

[gon2srf]

I'm interested, the February trip was epic. If you have never traveled with Kevin you are in for a treat if you like friendly, helpful, knowledgeable loud snoring guys. Kevin had a plan/itinerary at all times but was also flexible about changes as long as it was safe and agreed by the group. Did I say loud snoring... Seriously great trip!

For what it's worth, I have two friends who own property in Primo Tapia, just north of Cantamar. They live next to the dunes. One friend (a gringo) drives the toll road every day to work in Ensenada in a black H3 with American plates. These guys see Baja Norte on a daily basis and have a better feel for what is going on than us and I talk to them regularly. They both agree that there has been an escalation of commando type bloodshed mainly orchestrated by the drug lords and their henchmen against police and politicos. This is reminiscent of the Mafia of old in the U.S. where many of the poor actually support the drug lords because they fear them less than the corrupt police and because they provide a black market economy which provides a better standard of living than can be had by the average uneducated Mexican. This is a very deep socioeconomic problem that is not going to go away by hiring a few more police officers in Rosarito or Tijuana.

Yes there are break ins, robberies and murders but statistically no more, in fact less, than goes on here in So. Cal. Most of the violence is drug cartel against police or against fellow drug dealers. The attacks on tourists are random and few but make headlines because it happened to a tourist.


Here are some interesting statistics. The US State Department reports that there were 128 Americans killed in Mexico between January 2005 and December 2007. Rosarito, Ensenada, Mexicali, San Felipe, Tecate and Rocky Point had 42 homicides in the last three years combined. In the single year of 2007 there were 324 homicides in Los Angeles County, and 103 in the last six months. Further- more some of these Americans killed in Mexico were part of the drug trade.



You old timers who remember the good old days in Baja keep in mind that we Americans are partially responsible for many of the problems there. Besides the drug war we bought up most of the coastal property when it became available to buy not lease, which raised the prices to there current levels. It's a free market but we have walled off and gated the communities blocking Mexicans from the beaches they have visited for generations and isolating ourselves from the locals and creating more envy and hostility.

When I was a kid surfing Baja in the 70's and 80's I did it my $1500.00 67' VW square-back, or my 66' Baja and later in my Toyota SR5. I lived off the tacos stands and the food I bought in Mexico. I didn't show up in a shiny Ford F250 or Cadillac Escalade flashing my gear and showing disrespect for the locals. We'd lay low, smile big and try to share with locals." T-shirts, leashes, old wet suits, etc." My dads old Playboys traded well for a lot of lobster from the fisherman.

Even though Baja has grown enormously in the last 10 years there is still so much poverty and inequality. Tourists have historically been an easy mark not just in Mexico but everywhere in the world. So be aware, but be friendly and courteous just the same. Paying a "La Mordida" bribe to a curious or greedy local cop should be considered standard operating procedure but sometimes a hello and an offer of a beer is all that is needed. The average bribe for a vehicle offense is less than $25 and most bribes for tourists are related to vehicle infractions. P.S. Gas is about $2.70 a gallon right now, not bad eh?

For me personally, the rewards of traveling to Mexico and other countries abroad have always far out weighed the risks involved.

Baja Forums - General Discussion

YouTube - Glenn Beck: Zeta Gang Takes Control of Border

The Gringo Gazette

Expatriates In Baja

KUSI NEWS - Good Morning San Diego - Video - South of the Border Safety

[boydmick]

Long Answer:

I have reduced the number of trips to Baja lately, but it has more to do with economics at home than problems in Mexico.

I think Kevin's safety tips are reasonable and not too difficult to follow. . I have been avoiding TJ for years because the border there is such a royal PITA!

Travel in third world countries is always sketchy and even 30 years ago I heard stories of trouble in Baja. The drug cartels have been active in Baja for as long as there have been drug cartels. But now the internet has allowed millions of people to share stories; many are true, but most are regurgitations of anecdotal drivel retold time and time again almost like fish tales - bigger and more dramatic with each telling.

Use good judgement, respect the people, respect the land and you will be rewarded.


Short Answer:

I'm still interested.

[landcruising]

"Was your camp "ROBBED" or was stuff just stolen when you left it unattended? "Robbed" means they showed weapons or threatened you and removed stuff in your presence. I am guessing that didnt happen and stuff was just stolen while unattended, correct? Not to sound like an ass, but common sense would tell me not to leave anything unattended in a poor country! "

Our Camp was robbed while we went to town for dinner. Our tents, sleeping bags and ice chest were all stolen. This was in a busy area with a lot of americans, but our own fault leaving the stuff we should have know better. Again this has never happended to me in the US.

"Bandits? Robbing you @ gunpoint or stealing stuff left unattended?"

These were bandits robbing us with knives and machetes, 4 of them jumped 2 of us on the beach and took what little money we had, some of our clothes and our watches.

"Federaly bribes? Sure they were actual Federalis or just cops pretending to be? Federalies are usually the only NON crooked cops down there, in my past experience."

To the best of my knowledge these wer the federalies, the 16 year olds, the ones in army fatiques holding M-16. They cost us about $40 for speeding which we did not believe we were, some sodas, snakes and a cigar which they asked for in an idirect manner, but it was clear what they wanted.

Bad gas? Was it from a real Pemex or from pepes hut out of a milk jug? All the bad gas experiences i have heard from have been from people getting it from sources other then a Pemex, and also one friend of mine had his truck filled with Diesel @ a pemex in Ensenada, and the truck was NOT diesel! "

This was gas from the San Felipe Pemmex on the way out of town. I usually take a lot of extra gas but we went much further south than anticipated. I put about 22 gallons in my chevy truck and ended up having to service in El Centro, fuel filter flush and fuel injector cleaning. Ran great after flushing and new gas. About $500 total repair.

"Anything with the words Rosarito or Ensenada are trouble and we stay far away from there and never stop"

Agreed !!! especially now.


[quote]Estero Beach resort is one of the biggest targets for thieves @ the races, always tons of reports of people getting their stuff stolen cause they left it out in the open because they saw security guards, again, common sense goes a long way here!
[/QUOTE

Maybe so now but years ago this was a quick and easy camping trip next to the beach with a great volleyball tournament. A friend in Pacific Beach used to Help a Guy through a huge party the Corona Open south of Rosarito every year with tons of bear and food. They also hired great bands. Never had a problem there, but usually spent about an hour at the 2 check points as they rifed through my stuff. They loved the old FJ40. Here they appeared to be looking for drugs and weapons. A few sodas usually sent us on our way.

Yeah, and the problems happening down there are also pretty standard for any tourist town when you think about it. How many punkass ***** wannabe surfers get beat up and mugged each day in PB? Answer, ALOT of them, read the paper! Rapes? Same thing, read the SD paper!

I often think the same thing, I moved away from PB after living there 10 years to buy a place and don't miss the punks, but do miss the water and location.

Care to elaborate on this via email or PM? I highly doubt it was real federalies man, they are looking for drugs and guns and dont mess with speeders. Lots of folks call all the police down there federalies, which isnt true,

You are probably right here. After the bandits hit us we tried to to go to the police and they just acted as if no big deal and chuckled. I'm 6'6" 250lbs and my buddy id 6' 200 lbs so maybe they thought we should have taken them on. They were no help and didn't sem to care. The federalies did not say much about it when we talkied to them, but they did charge us for the speeding and the sodas etc. as mentioned above.

Yeah, i learned very early on, that if some basic rules (that i stated above) and common sense are used that you will be fine. No offense, but leaving stuff unattended anywhere in unacceptable in my book, nevermind a poor country. For what its worth, the 3 places i have had stuff stolen from my camp were in the US (Yosemite, Joshua Tree, and Borrego). All 3 times was because i left stuff unattended trying to give the human race benefit of the doubt, well, i can honestly say, that i never leave ANYTHING unattended ANYWHERE now!

Yeah I think after going there since the early 80's we got used to the easy going nature of the people and good times. Things have changed down there or I think more about the consequeces as I get older. Most of my experience down ther has been good but 2 bad trips have turned me away. I have never had problems with camping in borrego or anywere in the sierra,s but have had stuff stolen in the Dunes at Glamis. This was when I still road san toys and was just out of high school.