"Run's on SVO (vegetable oil)"?

[brownbear]

its up around 90 here in Smithers, thats why this oil thing is stuck in my head.

[aamiggia]

I think these SVO kits would be perfect in the NorthWest. There is no way you could run SVO in Ontario for 6 months of the year. It would actually be solid for this time.

I've heard that BioDiesel is thicker than petro-diesel and can get bad in the cold. So if I could only use it at limited times of the year the break even point is much longer. Another reason to envy you boys in BC. I'll have to continue putting money in Bush's pocket and funding Saudi Terrorists.

[brownbear]

Originally Posted by aamiggia

I think these SVO kits would be perfect in the NorthWest. There is no way you could run SVO in Ontario for 6 months of the year. It would actually be solid for this time.
.

they say they can handle -20. and it just takes longer to heat, but it does have lots of heaters. I don't think it would have problem with the cold. And you have to pick your oil. they say canola is the best. And you can slightly cut it with diesel to thin it out for quicker warmups. the diesel and veg are compatable.

I plan on running mine in the cold it I go that route.

[brownbear]

stuff like olive oil would not be good. solidifies early.

[Deny]

I can give a little insight on used oil. First off, it is never clean of food particles, and even our cleanest oil supplier has tonnes of food particles in it, so filtering is a must. Running strait veggy oil, would be quite messy, cause our dads pickup that we transport the used oil in is just coated in oil, I would not want that mess on my cruiser. About running bio or veggy oil in cold temps, we found that the veggy oil gets quite thick around the same temp (-12) as the biodiesel gells up(thus we mix 50/50 in the winter). I can see the benefit of not doing any reaction and just dumping in strait veg oil, the biggest issue is that you will have oil all over your car and shop as opposed to just a messy shop when making biodiesel. Oh ya biodiesel costs us around 25cents a litre to make, and it takes about one hour to make a 100L batch. After running it for two years now, we have had no problems with hoses on our trucks, but some of the cheap pumping hoses we have are eaten through by the bio (it also eats paint). As for the lubricating effects, I noticed that my engine got a bit quieter after I started using bio. And Wayne, yes it is getting to be a bit of a chore, but with the amount of driving I do, and the amount of money that I don't make by being a student, it helps to save a couple grand a year.
Just my two cents,
Deny

[aamiggia]

Deny, for biodiesel production, what is the cost of Methanol?

Once the equipment is paid, what is the most expensive material?

[Stickboy]

i've been running a 86 vw td jetta for about 3 years now on WVO with no problems other than an occasional fuel filter cleaning. I wouldn't hesitate to put it through the cruiser, no plans to since it isn't my commuter. I don't think it's a good option for many short trips especially in cold weather country.

my most expensive component in making bd is methanol. 120 USD$/55 gal drum. Next is the catalyst, koh - $1/lb or so....

my .01
mike

[crushers]

hey Mike, good to hear from you.
how much time do you invest in the making of the bio?
cheers

[HZJ60 Guy]

Originally Posted by crushers

hey Mike, good to hear from you.
how much time do you invest in the making of the bio?
cheers

I use B20 here in Seattle. Ive used B100 many times. I had some B100 stored in a five gallon can for not to long (2 months) and it turned into a labratory project. There were more growing creatures in that stuff than you could imagine. And it started out in a NEW can.

If you ever want to PASS vehicle emissions here in the US, fill up with B100 and drive around for a couple hours, then go take your test. You'll pass everytime. DO YOU HERE THIS THOSE OF YOU IN THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KALIFORNIA?


TB

[mac]

As Brownbear stated, there is no rendering if good oil is obtained. If a good filtering and dispensing system is prepared then each tank of oil should take minutes- not hours to prepare. Of course it will not be as easy as pulling up to the pump, but at 99.9cents/l that hasn't been very easy lately either. As for your engine, veggie oil has much higher lubricity than diesel and so lubricates the injector pump much better- no more additives. It also provides a soft, oily cushion for the injector action and leaves less deposits than diesel.

Mac

[Deny]

Hey aamiggia,
we get our methanol from a chem place in Abbotsford BC and costs around 180cnd? I think. I have heard that you can get it for 150cnd, but I don't know where. They do keep dropping the price for us the more we use thou. and ya like stickboy said, methanol is the most expensive.
Cheers,
Deny

[aamiggia]

IIRC, the amount of methanol used in the making of BD is 20% and some of it can be recovered. At the $150/drum price mentioned it would cost $0.1435/L for the methanol up to $0.1722 at the price Deny mentioed.

That's not too bad if you can get the oil for free and some incedental coin for the KOH. So a figure of $0.25/L is not unreasonable. Of course that's not including time and capital cost.

[Deny]

Also,
If you really wanted to get technical, the byproduct is soap, which is also biodegradable, but there are places out there that buy glycerine = extra cash in your pocket. And if you really wanted to save money, you could set up your own oil collection company and actually charge the resturants to take the oil away! But hey, it's all in how much time you can and want to put in.
Cheers,
Deny

[crushers]

and this will only work till the restaurants realize what you are doing with their byproduct and then start charging you for the goods. you will need to get the supply from somewhere and the owners will catch on sooner or later.
once you charge to pick up a item you are in business so now the government will get involved and you will need to set up a business licenses, corporate forms, (after all you will be incorporated to prevent an ooops from taking your life savings away in the case of a sue, right?),get a city license for your business (you will start a business since it is an income and you are an honest person as we all are, right?)
I would suggest either get into it in a big way or do not think of charging for the goods. the government does not take lightly to taking an income and not declaring it.
cheers

[Jim_Phillips]

I picked up 100 litres of free used cooking oil yesterday - spent an hour in the garage turning it into Biodielsel and today pumped it into my tank. That's enough BD for about 500 miles - 1 hours work and a few quid for the methanol. Those that run diesel need to wake up to Bio - no need to keep asking questions - just do it.

[crushers]

so you spent how long gathering the base? and how much into the conversion, and 1 hours actual work.
those that run bio need to start adding up ALL the costs instead of minimizing them.
so say 1 hour driving, collecting, hauling back to the garage, one hour converting, then filling, cleaning the machinery.
so all in all say 2 1/2 to 3 hours and at $20 hr (average wage) that is between $50 and $60 for free fuel.
time is money.
cheers

[sandcruiser]

Originally Posted by crushers

<snip>
time is money.
cheers

Ok Wayne, but by that rational, you've also got to include similar $20/hour costs into whatever you spend to go tank up on traditional diesel as well. And to truly get a full estimate, you've got to break down the long-term costs associated with higher lubricity bio or SVO.

And to *really* come up with fair costs, how about the tax dollars that we all pay to take care of the large-scale problems associated with petroleum products-- spills, cancer, war-- all that stuff.

Or, an alternative is to accept that for some people the thrill of producing their own fuel offsets the time investment to some degree and that the pride of dramatically reducing pollution also makes the time seem less expensive.

Bio or SVO is probably not for everyone. But it is a pretty good idea and so far seems economically viable.

[crushers]

as we discussed before, the thrill will diminish as time goes by and then the BIO will become a chore. also the chances for gummed up lines, replacing rubber lines, and the lovely smell of french fries will have to added into the equation.
i agree completely that it isn't for everyone. just as diesels are not for everyone but what i am trying to bring to the forefront is that BIO is not as cheap as the users of it claim.
now if it is for ou, or if you want to try it, please do so. i have nothing against trying a new idea but put it out there with all the problems and costs associated with it's production in plain view.
i don't want to come across like this is my personal war, it isn't. i really do not care one way or the other but do be honest with yourselves and the people that read your posts...
cheers

[Stickboy]

this is my kind of thread....

wayne, i agree with your points and I also agree with sandcruiser and jim's comments.

i run svo and make bd and have seen this issue of folks trying to downplay the time/effort involved in doing it. people always ask me how much it costs to make bd and truthfully about .50-.75/us gal. for me. But would i sell it for that, no way. time and effort to setup my system was extreme and putting a value to the knowledge i've gained over the years of researching and trial/error is very difficult. I'm torn on this whole issue because I do really enjoy it, just like other folks enjoy riding snowmachines or doing other recreational activities. it seems that if something can be construed as a business (ie making BD, wind/solar installs) then it leaves the realm of enjoyment and gets evaluated as a business where folks who do recreational activities (ski, motorbike, etc...) never get evaluated as a business and aren't viewed under a microscope and expenses/time put into it are not really taken into account. this is a dilemna for me because the bd/svo thing is my recreation but might turn into a business venture.

i think that sandcruiser makes some good points regarding the costs of spills/cancer/wars/etc... this is one of the biggest reasons i make bd (local economic support, domestic, more environmentally sound fuel source).

i do think it is important as wayne says that we disclose all the issues regarding making this stuff. if anything is hidden or glossed over than it gives the perception of being deceptive and you lose credibility. Frankly here are some of the crappy parts of making the stuff that I've discovered:

getting grease in the winter is a PITA. i am fortunate enough now to have a crane on my truck so i can pick barrels up but before that i scooped the solid crap out of the barrels every month and stored it until spring. fun fun.

dealing with the catalyst (koh/naoh) IS NOT healthy. very caustic and i use every precaution possible (SCBA, respirators, no open tanks etc... and you WILL breathe some of the stuff.

methanol is nasty, no way around it, i've limited my exposure through a closed system but honestly hooking up the system you do get methanol around you.

dealing with the sludge left over from the grease is unpleasant. i compost it but getting it out of the barrels isn't all that fun.

BUT, all those above things are worth it to me for the reasons I stated above. I'm willing to endure those issues for the larger ones. No different than cleaning my kids dirty diapers....don't really enjoy it but something that has to be done.

my .03
mike

[crushers]

thank you.
this helps the concerns i was worrying about.
on my site iw ill be adding a Bio Diesel section. now this will be a neutral section. i will not be one sided and if i come across that way i hope someone will help me correct the information.
i feel that if you did a lot of highway driving, say to and from work for an hour or an hour and a half then this makes much more sense (but then do you really ahve the time and energy to make it?).
please keep the info coming along so i can get a page up accurately as possible.
thanks guys.
cheers