Heated Racor filter...

[MrMoMo]

So I am looking to by a 12V heated racor filter for my SVO setup... Question is, does it hurt to heat the diesel as well as the VO? (Can't imagine it does but have to ask...)

The obvious reason would be if it is better not to heat the diesel then install the filter before the fuel solenoid valve, if it is no harm to heat the diesel, then install the filter after the solenoid valve, closer to the IP, putting that last source of heat as close to the engine as possible. - The downside I can see would be longer purge times...

As for getting the temperature just right... I am planning on installing a temp gauge in the VO tank, as well as inline on the return line to the IP - The theory is that this will help me see when the system is purged if the diesel is not heated... does that sound like a decent idea?


Thanks!

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

So I am looking to by a 12V heated racor filter for my SVO setup... Question is, does it hurt to heat the diesel as well as the VO?

It's OK to heat the diesel if it contains 5%VO to increase the lubricity at higher temperatures.

[MrMoMo]

Best not to heat it then since I won't likely be mixing in my diesel tank.

How much fuel flow per hour should I rate the filter for? (how many GPH does a 3.4L engine use ?) is a 5 micron final filter good?

Thanks,

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by M John Galt

It's OK to heat the diesel if it contains 5%VO to increase the lubricity at higher temperatures.

In the winter, it's not a bad idea to heat the diesel fuel as well - as it will make starting and warm up a bit easier/faster.

IIRC, the Racor filters have a thermostat that stops heating when the fuel is above a certain temp ( 10* C / 50* F ? ) - thus I doubt that BioDiesel or VO need to be mixed or that there would be a problem with hot diesel fuel lubrcation.

[lowenbrau]

Its never a bad idea to heat the diesel.

If you are running a separate WVO tank there are fuel lines that run in coolant lines and in-tank coolant heat exchangers. That is the way I would go. If you ran a Webasto, you could actually run WVO alone.

[lowenbrau]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

Best not to heat it then since I won't likely be mixing in my diesel tank.

How much fuel flow per hour should I rate the filter for? (how many GPH does a 3.4L engine use ?) is a 5 micron final filter good?

Thanks,

Max consumption for a 3B would be less than 10GPH

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by lowenbrau

Max consumption for a 3B would be less than 10GPH

Good to know, I was thinking of a Rancor, didn't know the cconsumption either.

Would there be any drawback to using a heated fuel filter that is rated at a higher flow ( besides price )?

[lowenbrau]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Good to know, I was thinking of a Rancor, didn't know the cconsumption either.

Would there be any drawback to using a heated fuel filter that is rated at a higher flow ( besides price )?

Good question. They must have some thermostatic control. Even huge engines use very little fuel at idle.

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by lowenbrau

Good question. They must have some thermostatic control. Even huge engines use very little fuel at idle.

The reasion I ask, is that while I was looking at the Rancor filters, I noticed that the larger capacity filters quite often had larger capacity, and I got to thinking that the larger capacity would give the engine a couple of benifets:

1) A reserve of fuel that is warm - before more cold fuel from the tank arrived.

2) Increased heating capacity to warm the fuel up faster thus dealing with colder tempatures better.

3) Higher fuel flow capacity, could alow for the filtering of smaller partical size, while keeping flow at required levels.

I also noticed that the larger capicity fuel filters also had little extras like, combined water seperators.

Is my thinking flawed?

If so, in what way?

[MrMoMo]

I ordered the VegMax from Plantdrive...

PlantDrive™ International a div of NBT Building Products Ltd. :: Filters: Vormax, VegMax :: VegMax

Probably the only part of my system that I am not cheaping out on. I figure the filtering is important..

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

I ordered the VegMax from Plantdrive...

PlantDrive™ International a div of NBT Building Products Ltd. :: Filters: Vormax, VegMax :: VegMax

Probably the only part of my system that I am not cheaping out on. I figure the filtering is important..

Hmmm....

Something about that advertisement, sounds a little odd.

" like all fuel filters with water-blocking elements, are designed to be installed on the suction side of any 12V or mechanical lift pump "

Rancor list their filters with a water blocking element as able to handle up to 15 PSI, even when vacume instalations are recomended.

http://www.parker.com/EAD/Digital_as...asset_id=26992


There is this to also consider, Racor 900 series have a 12 & 24 volt heating options, while the VegMax Filter, is coolent based, which means that it's going to take quite a bit longer to reach usable VO tempatures - which means that you would be running on DinoDiesel for a longer period.

Just a thought.

[2 Bees]

12v Racor 200 watt bowl heating element draw 18 amp's, the bear min alternator is 65 amp's . Racor does carry a filter with the 200 watt bowl heater combined with a coolant heat exchanger $$$$. The way it works is the 200 watt heater is on until the coolant heat exchanger get up to temp then the bowl unit shuts down and the coolant heat exchanger takes over.

[Greg H.]

Now that is what I'm talking about.

[MrMoMo]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Rancor

I can only assume that this is a continual typo and you are actually referring to Racor?

Originally Posted by Greg H.

it's going to take quite a bit longer to reach usable VO tempatures - which means that you would be running on DinoDiesel for a longer period.

I have acutally timed it. On my 35Km trip to work, at about -10°C it takes 4km for me to get up to temperature. I can manage that for a warm up time without electric heated elements - which I can always install in the future. My tank and lines will not be heated with electric, so they will need the engine to come up to temperature as well, no point (that I can see) in having the filter heated and ready to go before the rest of the system. (this would likely be very different in a warm climate though, so I could then see the advantage of electric as well)

I have been known to be wrong in the past though.....

[MrMoMo]

Originally Posted by 2 Bees

12v Racor 200 watt bowl heating element draw 18 amp's

Sounds like a neat setup

Not to be picky, but 200W/13.8V is 14.5A, not 18A. Are you sure it's not 250W@ 18A?

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

I can only assume that this is a continual typo and you are actually referring to Racor?



I have acutally timed it. On my 35Km trip to work, at about -10°C it takes 4km for me to get up to temperature. I can manage that for a warm up time without electric heated elements - which I can always install in the future. My tank and lines will not be heated with electric, so they will need the engine to come up to temperature as well, no point (that I can see) in having the filter heated and ready to go before the rest of the system. (this would likely be very different in a warm climate though, so I could then see the advantage of electric as well)

I have been known to be wrong in the past though.....

, my bad. Quite often I end up adding something somewhere on some particular words - go figure.

(this would likely be very different in a warm climate though, so I could then see the advantage of electric as well)

Did you mean to say a cold climate ?


One reason I can think of having the filter heated, is due to cold climates, because the filter is where cold fuel is going to have a hard time flowing, especially if for some reason you end up with a bad batch of oil or the filter is slightly clogged - or both.

Even any regular diesel fuel that is in the filter will flow through it better for being heated, and if you don't purge all the vegetable oil from the filter, before shut down, you might have some issues trying to get cold vegetable oil to flow the next morning, until your coolant is warm enough to thaw your filter out.

I heard of one guy that is running nothing but BioDiesel year round in a Cruiser ( IIRC in Aspen CO ). He uses a series of things to allow him to run the BD in winter. Not the least of which is a block heater and a fuel filter heater. From the tank to the fuel filter he uses large diameter fuel line, so that even if the fuel in his tank is cold, enough of it will still flow to the fuel filter - even if it does so slowly, until the coolant is warm enough to heat the tank.


Just a wild thought -

What about an aux pump at the fuel tank, pumping the cold VO, up to a small header tank ( about one quart in size ) in engine compartment, where is could warm up, and then flow back to the fuel tank warming it up. The normal pump can then draw the VO from the header tank as needed, and the required amount of heated fuel line is reduced.

In theory, a header tank will heat up faster than the main fuel tank and being in the engine compartment it will also stay warmer for a longer period of time after the engine is shut down.

[MrMoMo]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

(this would likely be very different in a warm climate though, so I could then see the advantage of electric as well)

Did you mean to say a cold climate ?

No, what I meant was perhaps in a warm climate, where engine coolant is not used to heat the entire tank, lines and filter - one could possibly get by with ONLY electric heat at the filter - and not have the hassle of plumbing extra coolant lines all over the place! (I would love to be able to do that!

Originally Posted by Greg H.

One reason I can think of having the filter heated, is due to cold climates, because the filter is where cold fuel is going to have a hard time flowing, especially if for some reason you end up with a bad batch of oil or the filter is slightly clogged - or both.

Yes, however I would not be using that oil, until my system is up to temperature, as the rest of the system would not flow as well, and all the heat would then have to come from the electric (maybe it would be enough, but I'd have a hard time trusting it!)

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Even any regular diesel fuel that is in the filter will flow through it better for being heated, and if you don't purge all the vegetable oil from the filter, before shut down, you might have some issues trying to get cold vegetable oil to flow the next morning, until your coolant is warm enough to thaw your filter out.

I don't plan on running the diesel through this filter, it will be only for the VO, Just before the VO ties into the rest of the fuel system... This means that the entire system will be up to temp before anything has to flow through this filter anyway!

Originally Posted by Greg H.

I heard of one guy that is running nothing but BioDiesel year round in a Cruiser ( IIRC in Aspen CO ). He uses a series of things to allow him to run the BD in winter. Not the least of which is a block heater and a fuel filter heater. From the tank to the fuel filter he uses large diameter fuel line, so that even if the fuel in his tank is cold, enough of it will still flow to the fuel filter - even if it does so slowly, until the coolant is warm enough to heat the tank.

I wasn't aware that bio had to be heated? I thought you could run Bio as you did dino?

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Just a wild thought -

What about an aux pump at the fuel tank, pumping the cold VO, up to a small header tank ( about one quart in size ) in engine compartment, where is could warm up, and then flow back to the fuel tank warming it up. The normal pump can then draw the VO from the header tank as needed, and the required amount of heated fuel line is reduced.

In theory, a header tank will heat up faster than the main fuel tank and being in the engine compartment it will also stay warmer for a longer period of time after the engine is shut down.

I had a similar thought, I had wondered about installing a small pump to circulate the VO when it is not being used as a fuel... I.E. before it gets up to temp. I have a 6 port valve, and I was thinking of running a return to the VO tank, for when the VO is not flowing to the pump. This way If there are any "cold spots" in my system, they would get circulated & warmed up before I switch over to VO. Funky use of the 6 ports but...

Input 1 = output to Lift pump
Input 2 = VO in
Output 1 of input 1 = looped to output 1 of input 2 (confusing?)
Output 2 of input 1 = diesel in
Output 1 of input 2 = looped to output 1 of input 1
Output 2 of input 2 = VO return


#1 Loop to #3 \
------ To lift pump
#2 Diesel in /



#3 Loop to #1 \
--------- VO in
#4 VO return /


Does that make sense to anyone other than me?

When the engine is running on diesel, the VO returns to the tank, when the valve switches over to VO, the VO feeds port #1, which feeds the engine and the diesel stops flowing.

[Greg H.]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

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No, what I meant was perhaps in a warm climate, where engine coolant is not used to heat the entire tank, lines and filter - one could possibly get by with ONLY electric heat at the filter - and not have the hassle of plumbing extra coolant lines all over the place! (I would love to be able to do that!

Why can't you use the coolant to heat the tank - I don't know of any reason you can't use the coolant to heat the veg oil in cool or even hot climates.

Yes, however I would not be using that oil, until my system is up to temperature, as the rest of the system would not flow as well, and all the heat would then have to come from the electric (maybe it would be enough, but I'd have a hard time trusting it!)

Why? It's not like you couldn't electrify the entire fuel line from the tank to the engine. Then once the coolant get hot it takes over from the electric.

Hard time trusting it? Is that not what thermometers are for?

Even if I was going to do a electric only or a coolant only ( or even a combined coolant and electric system ), I would want to know that the oil was up to temperature, before it even got to the pump.

I don't plan on running the diesel through this filter, it will be only for the VO, Just before the VO ties into the rest of the fuel system... This means that the entire system will be up to temp before anything has to flow through this filter anyway!

That makes a little more sense. Most vegi oil systems that I have heard about, they use most of the same fuel line including the filter.

In a nut shell, they have to use dinodiesel to warm everything up, then once the driver get's to where ever they are going they switch back over to diesel for another 5 min to purge the lines of vegi oil - so they are not starting on cold vegi oil the next time they start the engine.

I wasn't aware that bio had to be heated? I thought you could run Bio as you did dino?

Yes and no. In temperate ( and warmer ) climates it's no problem in the summer, and biodiesel can be treated like dinodiesel.

OTOH, when the temperature starts dropping, things start getting interesting.

Depending on what feed stock the biodiesel was made from, cold flow points can vary quite a bit.Follow with me for a bit as I describe 3 different types of biodiesel feed stocks and there physical properties.

Where beef tallow is used it has a cetane rating of about 75, it's melting point may only be about 35*- 40* C ( 95* F ) but, once made into biodiesel the physical properties change, depending on if it was ethanol 12* C ( 53* F ), or methanol 16* C ( 61* F ), that was used as the reacting alcohol and how much alcohol is left in the final product.

Corn oil, has an cetane rating of 53, and a melting point of -5* C ( 23* F ) and when made into a methyl ester it's melting point goes down to -10* C ( 14* F ), and as an ethyl ester -12* C ( 10* F ).

Soybean oil has a cetane rating of 53, and a melting point of -12* C ( 10* F ), and when made into a methyl ester, the melting point is -10 C* ( 14* F ) and as a ethyl ester, it's at -12* C ( 10* F ).

As you can see, biodiesel doesn't take cold temperatures real well, but unlike vegetable oil that must be brought up to 180* F or so from say 32* F outside temperature, all you have to do is warm the biodiesel up higher than it's cold flow temperature. So instead of trying to raise it's temperature all the way up to 180* to burn it, like you do with vegi oil, biodiesel only need to be raised up to perhaps 35* - 40* F to use it.

Normal in winter it is recommended that you blend it with dinodiesel, with proportions based on what feed stock it was made from, and how cold you can expect it to get.


Does that help explain things?

I had a similar thought, I had wondered about installing a small pump to circulate the VO when it is not being used as a fuel... I.E. before it gets up to temp. I have a 6 port valve, and I was thinking of running a return to the VO tank, for when the VO is not flowing to the pump. This way If there are any "cold spots" in my system, they would get circulated & warmed up before I switch over to VO. Funky use of the 6 ports but...

I don't know, but, it seams to me that the set up might actually increase the amount of time before you can start burning vegi oil - and the longer it takes to bring it up to temperature, the less savings you would see for burning vegi oil instead of dinodiesel.

Now if your talking about circulating the vegi oil along a heated fuel line in addition to the heated filter, but the entire time your doing that it's drawing heat away from the coolant line, rather than sitting there and getting warmer and warmer.

Once your up to a full heat, it shouldn't be as much of an issue, and would help, but until then I think it would actual slow things down.

Think about it. Instead of trying to heat up 8+ gallons of vegi oil in the main tank, a small quart size header tank would come to temperature much much sooner, and the impact of cold vegi oil from the main tank would be less, making it easier for the heat exchanger to bring the temperature of the vegi oil up to the desired temperature.

Input 1 = output to Lift pump
Input 2 = VO in
Output 1 of input 1 = looped to output 1 of input 2 (confusing?)
Output 2 of input 1 = diesel in
Output 1 of input 2 = looped to output 1 of input 1
Output 2 of input 2 = VO return


#1 Loop to #3 \
------ To lift pump
#2 Diesel in /



#3 Loop to #1 \
--------- VO in
#4 VO return /


Does that make sense to anyone other than me?

Sorry.

When the engine is running on diesel, the VO returns to the tank, when the valve switches over to VO, the VO feeds port #1, which feeds the engine and the diesel stops flowing.

I think that the impact of small amounts of slightly warmed up oil flowing into a large amount of cold oil would draw heat from the system, with little benefit - sort of like pouring a pint of boiling water in to a bathtub of ice water - sure it would warm it up.......sort of.

For one thing, unless you plumb the return line to enter the bottom, the slightly warm oil from the engine is probably going to have some tendency to set on top unless really mixed in, which is going to mean poor thermal transfer, unless your main commute is so full of pot holes that it would make skim milk into whipped topping.

The amount of thermal mass of the warm oil compared to the cold oil means it's going to take a very long time for any temperature change to occur, until the incoming oil is downright scalding hot.

[MrMoMo]

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Why can't you use the coolant to heat the tank - I don't know of any reason you can't use the coolant to heat the veg oil in cool or even hot climates.

No no, that's not what I'm saying - you can use it, but perhaps one may not be using it, and only using the electric heat. - What I was suggesting was that if I lived somewhere it was warm enough to not need tank heating, I might do an electric only system, as it would involve much less install work, no tapping into the coolant system.

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Why? It's not like you couldn't electrify the entire fuel line from the tank to the engine. Then once the coolant get hot it takes over from the electric.

What would you electrify the entire fuel line with? That's going to draw a LOT of current! Perhaps if I had an onboard AC generator I could spare 1500W or so, but my little old alternator only puts out just shy of 900W, and it has to run everything else as well!!!

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Hard time trusting it? Is that not what thermometers are for?

That's why I intend to have two temp gauges! One in the tank, and one just before the IP.

Originally Posted by Greg H.

[size=1]Now if your talking about circulating the vegi oil along a heated fuel line in addition to the heated filter, but the entire time your doing that it's drawing heat away from the coolant line, rather than sitting there and getting warmer and warmer.

Hmmm. I see your point. What I was trying to avoid here was having a "chunk" (which it could quite literally be!) of cold fuel, stuck between the heated filter and the IP. Perhaps I could just make a short loop, to go from the 6 port valve, back to the input of the filter. That way there would never be fuel that had not passed through the heated filter, stuck in the line waiting for switch over.

I just have this image stuck in my head... Everything is up to temperature except the last 12" of line because it's after the heated filter and not flowing. Flick the switch over to veggie and the truck dies because that 12" of line is not up to temp... then can't get started again because I've got cold VO in the IP & inj.

Maybe I'm just thinking too hard or havn't designed the system right in my head

Originally Posted by Greg H.

Think about it. Instead of trying to heat up 8+ gallons of vegi oil in the main tank, a small quart size header tank would come to temperature much much sooner, and the impact of cold vegi oil from the main tank would be less, making it easier for the heat exchanger to bring the temperature of the vegi oil up to the desired temperature.

Yep, but how much different would that be compared to a good run of Hose on hose? If my tank is in the back, and my VegMax is in the front, with 15' of Hose on hose heat between, do I really need a small tank with a heat exchanger? Or would the length of hose actually get it up to temp quick enough?