Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

[Esther]

I am thinking about gas milage and am wondering if any of you have experience with a supplemental hydrogen generator installed on your vehicals. If so, please share the pros and cons you have encounterd.
John

[RockDoc]

Is that an electrolysis device to produce hydrogen which you then burn?

2 H2O -> 2 H2 + O2 then 2 H2 + O2 -> 2 H2O

If the production of the hydrogen was 100% efficient, and the combustion was 100% efficient, you would have no net benefit. I doubt you are looking at 100% efficiency though...

[Esther]

The particular system i am looking at will increase fuel efficency 20 to 28 percent. It is a bolt on system that injects hydrogen into the fuel intake system. The hydrogen is generated by drawing 4 to 10 amps running thur a small tank with distilled water in it. Burns cleaner, more power etc.

[LukeZero]

I doubt it works that well. A continuous 10A load will make the alternator work harder, which will require more fuel, which, once you account for friction losses and conversion losses will end up being a net loss in gas mileage. You cannot, from a purely physics standpoint- get more energy out than you put in. Unfortunately, there is no free lunch. If there was, it would perpetual motion.

Every time there is a spike the the price of fuel- there are all these "hokey" products that claim to increase mileage.

1. Tornado air stirrer-upper thingey that fits inside air cleaner.
2. Magnets that clamp to the gas line to "magnetize the fuel".
3. Tablets that go in the fuel tank and "condition the fuel".

To my knowledge, none have been shown to have any effect other than the weight it removes from your wallet.

[RockDoc]

link? I am EXTREMELY skeptical. Unless the hydrogen helps the gasoline burn better, I fail to see how you can get more out than you put in. I think there was a myth busters on this.

[Butt Ugly Chuck]

Me thinks it's a hoax designed to get someone else more mileage out of your wallet.

[Christian]

Hydrogen is a fuel that contains a lot less energi per unit than gas, that is one of the reasons a fully functional hydrogen car still isn't on the roads.

But Hey! I sell the scandinavian Miracle Tonic! Boost your power by 1200HP while strengthening your entire driveline, it even makes your car invisible to cops and cameras, all in one bottle, just send me all your money or call 1-800-I-SCAM-ALL

[Esther]

Here is the link of the page I was looking at. http://www.savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/
From what I understand, hydrogen fuel is introduced to the intake system below the carb to mix with gasoline and burns in the combustion chamber. This will allow you to lean out the carb because the hydrogen fuel makes up the difference.
Sounds good, but even the "magnatized fuel" works (to a point), but you need huge magnets that have to be located just-a-bout inside the motor, therfore it is impractical. The wind tunnel insert thing also works but only in a constent enviroment with a motor that is operating at only one speed.
The hoax possibility is high here considering the history of these types of things, but I have to wonder considering the power of hydrogen fuel.

[NocalFJ60]

It is a hoax and violates the laws of physics (splitting a water molecule consumes energy and does not produce energy). But try it and do a writeup. I am sure they will refund your money if you don't see a significant improvement in your mileage.

[roundrocktom]

There was a thread about 'how old are you' in Chit....

Oddest part is as I get older, it seems that styles are coming back from "High School" days and
the 'gas mileage savers' from the 1970's are also making a comeback.

I have a sure fire way to double your gas mileage. Park the cruiser and buy a Civic

Tom

[Christian]

Originally Posted by NocalFJ60

It is a hoax and violates the laws of physics (splitting a water molecule consumes energy and does not produce energy). But try it and do a writeup. I am sure they will refund your money if you don't see a significant improvement in your mileage.

Exactly!!! That was the tell-all reason I needed! The whole idea with the hydrogen powered cars is that we can use renewable energy, such as windfarms and solar power to to make it, and the store the energy as hydrogen untill we need it.

On a IMO much more interesting note, researchers here have built a self-contained hydrogen plant in household size. The idea is that you have a small windmill or solarcells on your house. The excess energy stores as hydrogen, that powers fuelcells when you need it. The plant is no bigger than a closet, and the tank is like a standard oiltank!
Totally independent, convienient and no emissions!

[Elbert]

would not waste any time on any add-ons that talk about great gas milage or super power or never-before know increases inf efficiency. If you want that then I would buy a new gas mizzer of your choice.

If you keep your vehicle in tune, and change the air filter every now and then. You are going to get about the best average milage that your vehicle can. You start screwing with things to just get better gas milage you would be better off buying a different vehicle.

You'll always hear about someone who claims they get 25mpg in their 1 ton truck hauling a gooseneck trailer throught the mountains with 15 cows on board, while running the A/C ....

The simple truth on these old I-6 carb engines with 4 speed and 4*4, you are not going to get much better than 14 or so MPG on the hiway and less in town.

[79fj40moneypit]

Here is another one. Build a methane gas generator and use it to power you car, tractor, all you need to do is send $$$ to me I'll show you how. Have you seen this one?

[CDN_Cruzer]

That place is really close to where I live, maybe I should go check out it out

I wonder what that would do to the longevity of your engine???

[BiG BoB]

Originally Posted by Christian

Hydrogen is a fuel that contains a lot less energi per unit than gas, that is one of the reasons a fully functional hydrogen car still isn't on the roads.

There are Hydrogen cars on the roads, just not in comercial production. Busses in Perth/Australia are running on Hydrogen, with just a puff of water vapour as exhaust

Originally Posted by Esther

... This will allow you to lean out the carb because the hydrogen fuel makes up the difference.
...

How that is working is that they are betting your car needs a tuneup - a good tune up can improve fuel economy by 20% (if its realllllly out of tune). So you buy their gimmick, get your carby tuned up, and then WOW your saveing fuel!!

Thing is... You'd be saveing just as much fuel by makeing sure your car is tuned properly - without buying their gimmick

I'm not going to get into the physics of why their thing doesnt work, but the others are right, it doesnt work!

Sean

[fe sus]

attach a hose to your driver's seat that sucks methane from your...

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by fe sus

attach a hose to your driver's seat that sucks methane from your...

I knew that was coming.

How about this for a methane generator?

[CruzerCrazy]

Thats interesting.... There are other sites that actually have more sited research... Hydrogen-boost.com. I wouldn't worry about the power drain... As far as I am aware the alternator works as hard as it always does based on the RPM of your engine. And if you are worried about it just lose your smog pump and put in a second alternator with a dual battery setup.

Apparently the idea came out of some research from Nasa in the 70s (there system was solar powered). Here is some good information from a reputable source:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...mment-11093310


There is also a video on youtube about building your own fuelcell... I might try it out. Most certainly I think you will need to recurve your timing to take advantage..

john

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by CruzerCrazy

... As far as I am aware the alternator works as hard as it always does based on the RPM of your engine. And if you are worried about it just lose your smog pump and put in a second alternator with a dual battery setup.


john

John- from a Physics standpoint, your above statement is not accurate. The alternator does more "work" (ie. takes more effort to turn) if there is more electrical drain. A second alternator would also require some horsepower to turn. What it boils down to, regardless if we're talking engines and alternators or not, is that you can't get more energy out of a closed system (I know this is not technically a closed system) than you put in.

Bottom line, any power gained through H introduction into the intake stream is more than offset by the power lost in generating that H. (and yes, I'm very careful to call it power rather than energy.)

[Christian]

As far as powerdrain goes, just switch on the headlights when idling, why do you think the RPM goes down?

As far as claiming NASA as a source, so does all the debaters in the "have we, or have we not been on the moon?" Both sides claim NASA material as source, this demonstrates all can do that.

IF it was so simple to build a practical fuel cell, then why does MIT, Caltech and all the others spend so much time and funds in research?

No, it is not the big oil companies repressing the scientists, they know, as well as all others, that the next big economic boom will be in eco-energy.

I would really like Mythbusters to take this one up and reveal the scammers behind these ideas!

[dmede808]

Here's the deal, if some guy invented a way for you to get 28% greater fuel efficiency for a one time fee (plus the cost of distilled water) it would be big news right now and available at every Napa & Kragens in the US.

Snake oil, pure and simple. And remember, the best lies are the ones that most closely resemble the truth... so just cause a gimmick sounds well researched or is even theoretically plausible does not mean it will work.

[BiG BoB]

Using solar power to split the water in to Hydrogen and Oxygen for later combustion would work, however using an alternator to power the splitting, thats powered by the burning of the fuel it split, would not.

I think the problems with these debates is that people think they know more about physics than they actually do - any 10th grade physics student could see that this is a silly idea!

Sean

[CruzerCrazy]

Ok,

I was not aware that there was a "clutch" in the alternator that "suddenly" recognized amp draw and super engaged the alt? Come on guys. I turn on my lights and my IPFs and my RPMs stay the same. Now on modern cars if I turn on the A/C that is different. As far as losing the smog pump swap... It would be an acceptable swap
and it seems plenty of TLCrs are doing it here.... But lets forget all that and just say somehow we find the 10amps to drive the process.

Well first of all the link I sent was talking about a plasmatron that actually used a portion of the hyrdocarbon fuel to generate hydrogen from the exhaust. That technology is licensed from MIT by ArvinMeritor. It was new to me and I am looking at the fuel burn curves. As you can see from my list of cruisers that this topic very important to me. Hey, I pay $1.60 a gallon for propane to run my rigs and I am always looking for a way to pay less and get more power. As far as the vendors products that are being discussed and after looking at the parts list... I am very skeptical.
I will call tomorrow and talk to each and get detailed installation instructions. If they will not provide a PDF that describes this process for both fuel injected and normally aspirated engines than it obviously is a hoax. But, I am guessing it already is otherwise if they had a real product than they would have application guidelines. That is what I have for every LPG and CNG application I have installed. HP ratings, CFM flow rates, Dual Curve timing charts....

Having said that I just wanted to consider that there may be merit.

[Christian]

[Ok, I was not aware that there was a "clutch" in the alternator that "suddenly" recognized amp draw and super engaged the alt? Come on guys. I turn on my lights and my IPFs and my RPMs stay the same. ]


Its not a clutch friend, its the magnetic resistance between the fields in the alternator. Take the belt of your alternator, spin it, almost no resistance, the field is of. But nevertheless it takes up to 2 HP under load, and yes this DOES change depending on amps drawn, simple physics... I admit I have not tried turning the lights on and of with a 2F driving the alternator, I do not have a 2F, but you can se the difference clearly in a small engine, like a 1.6L corolla...
I have a 220V 800A transportable generator, when I hook that up to my anglegr4inder it almost stalls when I switch the grinder on, and no "clutch" there

[CruzerCrazy]

Now thats fun!

Angular Physics... Nice. Leave it to Denmark! Btw, I also have two patents on wind generators pending

So for fun... Lets just say you can find the energy: regenerative brakes, drag wind generators, solar. Whatever... that is easy.

How about the fuel burn and mix? Timing curve?

For me. I have the amps. And I already have all the lean fuel mixtures. What I do not have is the compression ratio, and the weight.

Any ideas?