Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

[joshoisasleep]

Yeah even if you could get enough energy from the HHO to power the entire car, it's still not perpetual motion because you're still inputting fuel (the water). Some people are getting confused between free fuel (as in water) and free energy (as in perpetual motion). Just because the fuel is plentiful and free does not make it *free energy*.

Now using just a little bit of energy to make a fuel additive (hydrogen) that will improve the low combustion efficiency of diesel or gasoline to the point where you're improving efficiency enough to more than offset the amount of energy you're using to produce the additive... well calling that unrealistic is just not thinking things through IMO.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by powderhound

Wow!
turtle, when's the book version coming out?
Sorry for the length. I've been looking at it for a couple of weeks, and then saw there were some other Cruiserheads talking about it. Just hoping to find some like minded people to talk about trying to develop the concept further than what I've seen out there.

here's the cycle: water(h20) + dc(applied appropriately) = hho
hho + combustion = dry steam exhaust, then as it cools, turns into water vapor

From vapour to water? just wanting to confirm that it eventually turns into Distilled water. I know that making a lossless system isn't in the cards, but I think that at least some reclamation is possible. Just means you don't have to refill the Distilled water as often.

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

Yeah even if you could get enough energy from the HHO to power the entire car, it's still not perpetual motion because you're still inputting fuel (the water). Some people are getting confused between free fuel (as in water) and free energy (as in perpetual motion). Just because the fuel is plentiful and free does not make it *free energy*. Again not looking for Free, just going further than the people making the products seem to be. At least to me.

Here's the idea I had.
I think that the early '90s ford escorts had 2 spark plugs per cylinder, take out one if the plugs and fit some type of injector that's fed prom the HHO Generator. That way, you can directly control the volume of the HHO gas used for each air charge for each cylinder, with a controller near the driver. If those cars were also EFI, You could then tap into it's control, and vary the ratios between atmospheric, HHO, and fosil fuel.
In order to do that you would have to pressurize the HHO to some degree, hence how much is too much safe pressure for the HHO. If the system could presurize the HHO in measured amounts, that might minimize the problem. Depending on the HHO volumes required, you could inject the HHO anytime between the intake valve closing, and the spark plug igniting. In the case of diesel, you could time it to go with the diesel injectors, again depending on volumes required.
It seems to me that, simply introducing the HHO gas into the air intake is an inefficient use of any volume of HHO gas that you can produce.

I hope that's more clear. I'm just long winded, what can I say?



Chris McPherson
fj55hybrid@gmail.com

[powderhound]

turtle, an american named stan meyers was developing something similar as your describing. He was actually working with a system that could replace the spark plug with a direct water injection. when the water came in contact with a certain frequency of the plug, it split the water molecules instantly. Stan was poisoned sometime in the early 90's.

josho, good explaination.

sniperx, why are you here?

[Sniperx]

I am here for two reasons....

I own this...




and....


...to call you a dumbass.


To restate that fact...

You said you can make the electricity needed to split water by running generators powered by the HHO you produce. I said, thats perpetual motion...only in a perfect, friction free world, would the HHO you produce be able to power the generators used to create the gas mixture.

Again...you're a dumbass who can't read....why are YOU here?

[WES1977]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

I am here for two reasons....

I own this...




and....


...to call you a dumbass.


To restate that fact...

You said you can make the electricity needed to split water by running generators powered by the HHO you produce. I said, thats perpetual motion...only in a perfect, friction free world, would the HHO you produce be able to power the generators used to create the gas mixture.

Again...you're a dumbass who can't read....why are YOU here?

Again....

this is not perpetual motion. The fuel is the hydrogen in the water the electicity is just there to get it out. You have to refill the water. Hydrogen is burned in the process and doesn't come back. This is not a closed system.

[powderhound]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

I am here for two reasons....

I own this...




and....


...to call you a dumbass.


To restate that fact...

You said you can make the electricity needed to split water by running generators powered by the HHO you produce. I said, thats perpetual motion...only in a perfect, friction free world, would the HHO you produce be able to power the generators used to create the gas mixture.

Again...you're a dumbass who can't read....why are YOU here?

Hey sniperx, you better get off the internet before your mom gets home.

[Sniperx]

Its ignoring the laws of thermodynamics and abusing the conservation of mass. In a perfect system the energy in equals the energy out 100%. However, the energy needed to create the hydrogen is greater than that which is released into the motor of the generator by combustion. By shear nature of a machine you have to combat friction and waste heat. Thus, no matter what you do...you'll run out of hydrogen before you can burn up all your water in the converter.

Powderhound: It cracks me up when people say cute things like that. Best put on your foil hat...the pyramids are talking again.

[WES1977]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

Its ignoring the laws of thermodynamics and abusing the conservation of mass. In a perfect system the energy in equals the energy out 100%. However, the energy needed to create the hydrogen is greater than that which is released into the motor of the generator by combustion. By shear nature of a machine you have to combat friction and waste heat. Thus, no matter what you do...you'll run out of hydrogen before you can burn up all your water in the converter.

Powderhound: It cracks me up when people say cute things like that. Best put on your foil hat...the pyramids are talking again.

How do you know it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than you get out of it? You maybe right at this day and time but it will happen. You are really not creating hydrogen any ways just seperating it.

Fuel injection takes more electrical energy to run over the Carb. does that make the carburetor more efficient?

The numbers do look crazy saying you can get 100miles to one ounce of water. I'm hoping to get 10mpg on water.

On Submarines they've been doing it for decades. They seperate the oxygen and the hydrogen. We want the oxygen and put the hydrogen off the ship.

[VTFJ40]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

Its ignoring the laws of thermodynamics and abusing the conservation of mass. In a perfect system the energy in equals the energy out 100%. However, the energy needed to create the hydrogen is greater than that which is released into the motor of the generator by combustion. By shear nature of a machine you have to combat friction and waste heat. Thus, no matter what you do...you'll run out of hydrogen before you can burn up all your water in the converter.

Wouldn't that be correct if the whole system was only burning hydrogen? I thought they were talking about increasing the efficiency of gas or diesel engine with HHO? The increased efficiency of the petro-fuel burn would be the positive, right?

[seapotato]

sniperx, you do know it's been proved that the earth isn't flat right?




the average hho generator produces 2 litres of hho gas per minute on about 15 amps of electricity. Some considerably more. It's all in the design of the unit.

this is enough for a gain of 10-15 % in efficiency in several different engines. Ford 7.3 diesels being one of them. and considerably more on others.
There's more power in a litre of HHO gas, than there is in a litre of gasoline. So, a litre of gas burned to produce a litre of hho will gain you energy, it's not perpetual motion, because water has to be added to the system


I know of one guy whoes gone from high teens mileage, to mid 40's, using several units on his truck, and hes' trying to ween himself off gas completely.

Do you REALLY think, an extra 15 amps of power from the alternator uses that much hp from an engine?
But what do I care, tell yourself it can't work, and move on.

the guys running their lawnmowers on HHO alone,and the half dozen or so who've managed to get their cars to run on it, are obviously delusional.

You're arguing in the wrong place tho, here is a bunch of guys who think, " hey that's a cool Idea I want to try it." with little practical experience YET. ( I'll be building one soon)
Post your thoughts on that message board I posted a link to. or just read a bit on there, they can explain things far better than I can.

now I'm off to have a chat with the pyramids.

[Turtle]

I'm with Seapotato, I have no idea if any of this works or not. I've seen claims that it works, and now thanks to folks like' Sniperx' I've seen claims that it's impossible and that I should be ashamed for even thinking about looking past the,

Originally Posted by Sniperx

the laws of thermodynamics

It's fine that you disagree, and your disagreement may even be based on your education, and experience. That's cool.

But most people, given the choice between, talking to an arrogant prick, who has education and experience on their side, or someone who is curious, has ideas and wants to learn more, and figure out how to overcome

Originally Posted by Sniperx

the laws of thermodynamics

.
I'm afraid you're going home alone, and the others, if they're lucky, will be the ones remembered for asking, "What if?"

Sorry for the Dis, but the whole point of science, is to continuously ask, what if. Not to say, "I'm smarter than you, and you're stupid for being wrong"

Oh, and everything I've just said about you, is probably very similar to what the people you work with, say behind your back.

I realize I've just started a flame war, and I'd like to say I'm curious to see what your comeback is.... but I'm not. So enjoy your mwb 70 series, I wish I could afford to bring one over to Canada.

Cheers!

Chris McPherson
fj55hybrid@gmail.com

[Sniperx]

OK...need to read more than just the last post. This is in refrence to his factory using HHO powered generators to make electricity to make HHO again...not diesel, not alternators, not any of that....I have no doubts that it will work for that. its similar to NOS principles.....more burn.

WES: Carb vs EFI....the point makes no sense, the injectors are not making the fuel which runs the alternator which then makes the fuel again. The injectors are nozzles and not part of the same equation being talked about here. This is not electric vs analog....this is basically you (universal you, not YOU) sh!tt!ng in your mouth, swallowing, running a mile, sh!tt!ng again and running on this without any outside food going into your body.

[WES1977]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

OK...need to read more than just the last post. This is in refrence to his factory using HHO powered generators to make electricity to make HHO again...not diesel, not alternators, not any of that....I have no doubts that it will work for that. its similar to NOS principles.....more burn.

WES: Carb vs EFI....the point makes no sense, the injectors are not making the fuel which runs the alternator which then makes the fuel again. The injectors are nozzles and not part of the same equation being talked about here. This is not electric vs analog....this is basically you (universal you, not YOU) sh!tt!ng in your mouth, swallowing, running a mile, sh!tt!ng again and running on this without any outside food going into your body.

You don't listen or understand what people are trying to tell you. You have made everyone in the room a little dumber listing to what you said. Billy Madison.

[joshoisasleep]

Originally Posted by Sniperx

...this is basically you (universal you, not YOU) sh!tt!ng in your mouth, swallowing, running a mile, sh!tt!ng again and running on this without any outside food going into your body.

No, it's like you running along and drinking water while you run. Your analogy would be for if you're trying to fuel the car on its own exhaust. Put water in, get energy out.

Another example: it takes energy in a gasoline powered car to create the spark that ignites the fuel. Using energy to get hydrogen out of water is no more perpetual motion than using energy to ignite gasoline. By your logic all gasoline powered cars are also impossible.

[powderhound]

Two types of people:

1. Can do people

and

2. Can't do people

I'm sharpening my pyramid hat for the next project. Anyone else out there have an hho system in their ride. Post some results if you have them.

[gerg]

I like yer hat. I just happen to keep a pyramid in my fridge... keeps my food fresh. By the way, im a can do guy myself. My fall goal is 40 imperial mpg in my bj60. Talk is great. Raw numbers are better.
G

[seapotato]

Originally Posted by gerg

I like yer hat. I just happen to keep a pyramid in my fridge... keeps my food fresh. By the way, im a can do guy myself. My fall goal is 40 imperial mpg in my bj60. Talk is great. Raw numbers are better.
G

Ditto. I'd been thinking 35 was a good goal, but fuckit, 40 sounds better...

I'm going to have a go at that smack booster first, looks easy to make, next week when I have some time I'm going to go out and round up the bits to make it.


and yes. that is a damn fine hat.

Course, if you really want to block the CIA's brainwave scanners, you need an armadillo helmet.

[Sniperx]

I give up, you guys don't bother reading past 3 posts...

[gerg]

Have you thought about adjusting your injection timing after the hydrogen assist? I have given it alot of thought myself and bought a g force thingy to help me out. Its a toss up for me right now as to the easiest way to tune it for optimum effeciency at cruise vs WOT power. The g force meter merely measures acceleration... so is no help for cruise tuning. Any thoughts?
G

[powderhound]

I backed off my timing a couple of degrees, since the fuel mix with the hho has the equivalant of 100++ octane, it should help delay the spark for a more complete burn.

Weather permitting today, I'm going to remount the hho system so it looks a lot cleaner and presentable. I'll have some pics by the end of the day for posting if everything goes well.

[gerg]

I agree with retarding the timing a bit. I would surmise that the HHO is going to accelerate the burn pattern of the diesel, and thus you could gain power by not injecting the diesel so much before TDC.

I would not concern yourself too much with octane and the like... this is a diesel, no fuel has enough octane to resist our cylinder temps. It will all auto ignite given the chance. This is why I am usually concerned with air fuel percentages (ratio) with this and propane injection. If your ratio gets high enough (like above 2% in some cases) the fuel will auto ignite. I prefer to look at the HOO as a cetane additive, or something along those lines.
Id love to see your pics even if you clamp it down with duct tape
G

[powderhound]

Finally had time to clean up the install with the help of a couple of friends. I used C-channel aluminum for a bracket and flat aluminum bar to hold the c-trap and a-traps(pvc cylinders with superthane hoses at right angles at top and bottoms).

1.The "Brick" is mounted down below on the fender well. It's made from nasa grade material, not pvc.

2.The tube running from the brick goes up into the A-trap with the level sensor inside. This eliminates most of the condensation and sends a signal to the water pump to turn on when the level inside is low.

3.From the A-trap top, a tube runs to the C-trap which acts as a second condensation trap. this comes with the booster air pump accessory.

4. From the top of the c-trap, tube runs to the 12v booster pump, then around the back of the air cleaner through a check valve and T-fitted into the intake vacuum tube located in the riser under the carb. I have added today a venturi and another hose running into the air cleaner to see if this makes a difference. I will get another check valve and insert it into the tube running into the air cleaner. There is a huge vacuum leak that affects the idle without a check valve.

5. I retarded the timing to where the dot is just on the engine side of the mark on the flywheel and adjusted the idle back up.

[powderhound]

magdrive install 82 fj60