Supplemental Hydrogen Generator

[CruzerCrazy]

LukeZero,


Why would you take that so personal? Please understand that I just want things better for my kids..? And, I picked the most reliable systems on the planet to support my research. My rigs will support my research.

What is your beef?

jj

[LukeZero]

No beef. I just get frustrated by the general lack of understanding of basic scientific principles. I probably have too short of a fuse sometimes. Sorry.

I guess I think most people are pretty dim. Probably I shouldn't paint you with that brush.

EDIT: And I guess I was responding to your petrol is not the bomb statement.

[Marc311]

It seems several issues got tossed up and that is clouding the picture.

This is not about the merits of hydrogen - it is about a device and what it purports to do.

The energy needed for the hydrolysis of water uses more than the energy it creates (through the use of the hydrogen). As noted previously, if this were not the case you could build a perpetual motion machine (or we would all be driving cars that run on water*). Now, if the alternator was always putting out wasted amps and those were used, that may be a different subject. But an alternator consumes more power as it creates electricity (and the generator example was spot on to illustrate that). Moreover, your alternator is not 100% efficient so you are losing again there as well.

Now, there may be some merit to adding hydrogen to a petrol powered car - I haven't the foggiest if it would help or not. If it helps and you could get hydrogen to add, great. My only point, and I believe the point of several others, is that getting that hydrogen through hydrolysis powered by the vehicle itself will not add efficiency.

By the way, Honda will be selling a limited number of Hydrogen fueled cars in California I believe as soon as next year. The reason is emissions, not fuel efficiency. Of course, if the fuel is cheap and clean efficiency doesn't matter all that much.

*I know, I know, an inventor built such a car in the 50's and the oil companies, GM, Ford, Eisenhower had him killed and shelved the technology

[CruzerCrazy]

Ok,

So in theory, if I put a switch on my alternator. Drive down the highway @ 60mph/2400 rpm and turn the switch off and run completely off my battery for 20 minutes than I will affect a 15-20% savings in fuel?

Conversely, If I leave the switch on and introduce a 10 amp load I will lose 15-20%? Shouldn't there be a hp/amp chart somewhere?

And why don't the manufactures say 15/18/12mph (city,highway,nightime)

Sorry if I being obtuse. Anybody look at the plasmatron?

jj

[Christian]

Conversely, If I leave the switch on and introduce a 10 amp load I will lose 15-20%? Shouldn't there be a hp/amp chart somewhere?

Sorry but you are confusing things, there is a hp/amp connection, its called watt. 10A x 12V = 120W = 0,16hp

And why don't the manufactures say 15/18/12mph (city,highway,nightime)

Partly because the electrical powerdrain from running light at night is equalled out by the battery during daytime driving, partly because the amps drawn as you can see from above calculation are miniscule compaired to the output of the engine at normal working revs. The drop in revs when you turn the lights on at idle is because the engine produces almost no power at idle.


Sorry if I being obtuse. Anybody look at the plasmatron?

I did look at the plasmatron, and the rest of the info on that page, and it seemed very confused, facts mingled with myth.

Sorry, but I do not see how any of it would work...

[phishincruisin]

I've done some reading on this, and hydrogen injection in diesels, and it does make sense. How our internal combustion engine works is not very efficient. There is a of energy spewed out the tail pipe in the form of gasoline. Introducing the hydrogen into the system causes the fuel to combust more, and as said before, can have a more lean mixture. remember, liquid gasoline does not combust, its the vapors that combust.

[lowenbrau]

At risk of continuing the sidetrack, I'll say this. It takes a little power to turn an alternator which is producing no electricity. It takes a lot of power to turn an alternator that is producing a lot of electricity. Those 55W headlights require 55W of engine power to run. There's no free electricity in a car uness you happen to have a hybrid with brake regeneration.

Back to the topic of Hydrogen. The amount produced is very small. By itself it would have about as much effect as a dog farting in the back of a pickup and increasing the power/mileage of the vehicle following. Where the snake oil pitch gets people is the claim that somehow a tiny bit of magical hydrogen can cause a change in the energy of gasoline whereby increasing its efficiency. I don't believe it but it is not beyond the realm of possibility. It simply needs a bit of real data to back it up. I suspect there will be some development in the future relating to blended fuels.

As far as helping the next generation out. We'd do well to quit wasting their inheritance.

[hj herby]

We discussed this at length with friends,and one day a client came in over heard us and said that you would save up to 20% fuel.The only problem is you would lose 20% hp.This was the pantonne system
The only saver is efficiency ,you dont get nothing for nothing.It takes energy to do stuff so if you are doing it on board you are losing or if you are luky breaking even.

[hj herby]

why do we always try to make little engines go faster and big ones use less fuel, when those of you who are looking for hp could swap with those looking for economy and ecological peace of mind?!!

[zuluzeugma]

I wouldn't be so quick to write EVERYTHING off. The law of conservation of energy most definitely applies to the situation. IF the auto cycle was 100% thermodynamically efficient, than you could throw any kind of artificial aspiration out the window as well as hydrogen generation. The problem is that the Otto cycle, as it stands, is limited by thermodynamic principles. As the compression ratio of an Otto cycle engines goes up, the thermodynamic efficiency also goes up. This is also true with the diesel cycle. We all know that not all the fuel is burnt in the Otto cycle and with advancements in fuel injection, this problem has become much better, but it still exists.

If the hydrogen generator takes 10% of the engine's power to split water into H2 and O but allows for 20% more fuel to be burnt, you have won.

Saying this, I highly doubt that this system is advanced enough to provide 20-28% fuel economy increases. However, There are several people who are doing Hydrogen injection with diesels with incredible results. The difference: They are packing a welding bottle full of H2 in the truck with them much like a Nitrous bottle. In the future, I don't doubt this system will become a reality and it will function just like a super charger or a turbo charger: It will take power from the engine to increase the thermodynamic efficiency.

My two cents…

[lowenbrau]

Originally Posted by zuluzeugma

If the hydrogen generator takes 10% of the engine's power to split water into H2 and O but allows for 20% more fuel to be burnt, you have won.

With 28% efficient (gasoline) and 33% efficient (diesel) engines, I don't think the math works out to a win.

[zuluzeugma]

true, those were just example numbers. I'm sure its more like 2% and 3%

[BiG BoB]

So by packing a welding bottle they are helping the environment? How much energy is used in order to generate / refine / distil that hydrogen???

Sean

[zuluzeugma]

Check this link out when you get a chance. It will make you think alot.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...d-messiah.html

[LukeZero]

Originally Posted by zuluzeugma

Check this link out when you get a chance. It will make you think alot.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...d-messiah.html

But I'm an American- you can't force me to think!

[Spook50]

The guy who owns the storage unit that I use is putting together a system. He's not sure if it'll work or not, but I guess to him it's worth a try. I told him to give me a call and let me know once he has it done and working. I'm skeptical, but hey, as long as I'm not paying to be the guinea pig, I'll bite.

[zuluzeugma]

Originally Posted by LukeZero

But I'm an American- you can't force me to think!

Haha, so true....

I firmly beilve that when gas gets to 5 dollars (and diesel 6 dollars) a gallon next summer, were going to see a whole new type of car enthusiests emerge onto the seen with a lot of inovations. Keeping an open mind might just save you a few bucks at the pump.

Case in point: A 1985 VW diesel rabbit that used to be worth about 400 bucks two years ago are now selling for OUTRAGEOUS amounts every week on ebay. People are beginning to get fed up with it. Some will react and be pissed, others will start thinking until real solutions are reached.

The ironic thing: I'm an engineer for an oil and gas company....

[Floyd298]

One of my employees put a hydro assisted fuel cell on his ford f150. His gas mileage went down 5-7mpg. The truck never ran right. The kit he bought was pretty complete. He spent over a $1000 bucks for it. Two weeks later he took it out. I believe most of it is bull. This was the kit.

http://www.relocalize.net/files/Fuel%20Cell%20info.pdf



Jason

[CruzerCrazy]

That was an interesting article. I just saw the company on a show about SEMA 2007. I wish I could afford to do a cummins 4bt swap out on one of my fj's!

[M John Galt]

Q-ray ionized bracelets work just as well as "H2 generators" to increase MPG and produce a sense of well being, while you're being fleeced.

[Foreigner]

Originally Posted by CDN_Cruzer

I wonder what that would do to the longevity of your engine???

I had a buddy in college that had a degree in alternative fuel systems. He built his own hydrogen generator on his F250 and averaged 25mpg. He said it has to be mixed just so and it's very hard on the longevity of the engine.

[dagwill]

her in OZ i believe quite a few people are adding lpg irrigation.
the diesel is leaned off and supplimented with a small amount of propane gas to the intake manifold,resulting in both cheaper and better fuel ecconomy.
i believe part of the reason for this is that the propane burns happily right up to the cylinder walls ,wher diesel suffers from the cooling effect of cylinder walls and does not combust completle right next to them
also the heat generated by the burning propane in this visinity causes the accompaning diesel to combust fully.

[Pard o' Hiace]

Surprised no-one posted this:

http://www.chechfi.ca/dealer_information.htm

More expensive, claims not as wild, but in widespread commercial use. Guess it's worth the 10 amps.!

[Pard o' Hiace]

And then there is this. . .

Truckers Choose Hydrogen Power.

So I guess this trick basically works. Or the guys referred to in this article are REALLY GOOD con men, good enough to bullshit Wired magazine and countless others. Of course, their kit for pickups & SUVs is more in the $3000 range, whereas the savefuel.ca guys is $6-700. That does beg the question of whether the expensive one works better, or causes less engine trouble, or just has lower costs because they are made by some crazy old coot in a barn he already owns in Vineland. He's clearly not paying anyone to write copy for him, his website is one spelling error after another. You can tell it's him or his brother narrating the promo video. So maybe his product is as good (or good enough), and his overhead is non-existent. I guess the question is who is going to risk a good engine to find out. I've got a Sentra that's pretty much a write-off . . .
Pard

[Pard o' Hiace]

Whoops. I meant that the question is if the cheaper one costs less because it's made in a barn in Vineland. I shouldn't type this early.
Pard

[Pard o' Hiace]

Yup, I will be staying away from this Jaco Bolle guy and his fuelsave.ca website. I did a little digging and found at least three complaints online of non-delivery and non-return of funds. So even if his kit works, he's well worth avoiding, it would seem. Shucks.

Pard.

[CruzerCrazy]

It is pretty easy to build.... But I think it only makes sense on a Diesel.