BJXX 3B on WVO - who's done it?

[MattF]

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Sorry for the typos... I don't catch them all!!! I'm definitely the owrld's wrost typist...

I meant "I wish a brave soul would attempt the same on the 1HD-T! With that rotary injection pump, I'm not inclined to try!!!"

I wasn't picking on spelling. Honest. I meant foolish may be a better term than brave where rotary pumps and VO are concerned.

[MattF]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

Well then, I wouldn't need it if I gave an exact description in the first place.

That made a lot more sense with regards to that which you are trying to achieve, however.

This may not be the best of methods, but I personally, from that description you gave, would go for something akin to the following setup.

Rather than having a second large VO tank, (as mentioned by someone else above), fit a small ancillary tank in the boot/underneath for the diesel supply, and use the main tank for VO. Enclosing the fuel lines in an outer coolant jacket line(s) from the tank as far upto the I.P/engine as feasibly possible. The in tank heater you've already mentioned. Possibly a heat exchanger in the engine bay that can use both electric/coolant methods of heating the VO. Once the coolant system is upto temp, the VO is around the optimal temp, (although some do suggest it needs to be quite higher in temp to truly become akin to diesel), so around then the switchover to VO should cause no problem whatsoever, whatever the external temps.

The main factor you personally need to cover is the complete heating of the fuel lines/system.

There are most likely better or other methods, but something along the lines of the above would be a system that I'd personally be content with.

[MrMoMo]

Originally Posted by MattF

Rather than having a second large VO tank, (as mentioned by someone else above), fit a small ancillary tank in the boot/underneath for the diesel supply, and use the main tank for VO.

Interesting, and I agree it does make more sense to use the huge existing tank for the VO, and have a smaller tank for the fuel which will be used less.

The downside to that is the VO tank will then be outside the vehicle (the coldest place it can be), it would be extremely hard to insulate the tank, and I would have to remove it, cut it open and install a heat exchanger in it. I really don't like the idea of messing with cutting the existing tank to install a heat exchanger, though I do realise it would probably be pretty easy to install a hotfox or some such heater.

Perhaps 50L was a little on the big side, I just prefer to have to fill it less often (yes, that would make the 90L tank a much better option)

Perhaps I should look at making an insulated tank to fit in the stock location, with a mini tank for piggy backing the diesel? Would be nice to not loose trunk space. This would also solve my current leaking tank problem!

Does it not make sense to at least try to keep as much heat IN the tank as possible? My theory being that if it's -20 outside, and +10 inside, that is a HUGE temperature differential that would suck heat from the exterior tank. I don't know, maybe it's easier to heat the oil more in the lines, and the tank temperature is not as crittical as I think it is?

Thanks for spending the time to learn me some more!

[islando]

HI,
This may not be the most usefull information in the world but if you can track it down you might like this.. I have a bj60 I am planning to convert.. I don't want to use up extra space so I am even considering removing the fuel tank, cutting it up and rewelding it into two parts.. one for veg, one for diesel.. I know that Frybrid in seattle makes by far the best kits on the market and have gone thru the most extensive research process as far as running veggie goes.. they know a lot and will tell you details that most of the other guys don't even realize.. Like the detriment of salts, acids in WVO..
Anyways, the info I wanted to give you was about a one tank system I saw a while back.. there is a company in europe i think that makes an engine that is designed to start and run on veggie.. no heating necessary.. They also make conversion kits for certain motors that can handle the conversion to do the same.. belive it or not the 3b is one of them.. I know that the injectors have to be replaced with a much higher pressure injector and there might be a fuel pump involved as well... I wish I could remember the name.. I think it was from germany..
anyways.. check out centrifuges if you are going to use WVO..
best of luck.

[MattF]

Islando, the company you are thinking of is Elsbett. They do indeed do a totally diesel free conversion. It does involve various alterations, however, of which one is, as you mention, uprating the injectors. I do believe your injectors have to be sent directly to them for the modification, unless things have changed since last I checked.

[MattF]

Originally Posted by MrMoMo

Perhaps I should look at making an insulated tank to fit in the stock location, with a mini tank for piggy backing the diesel? Would be nice to not loose trunk space. This would also solve my current leaking tank problem!

Does it not make sense to at least try to keep as much heat IN the tank as possible? My theory being that if it's -20 outside, and +10 inside, that is a HUGE temperature differential that would suck heat from the exterior tank. I don't know, maybe it's easier to heat the oil more in the lines, and the tank temperature is not as crittical as I think it is?

The warmer you can keep the tank, the better, but it usually comes down to practicality as well as function. Losing a wadge of internal space isn't always desirable. There are various ways you could go about the tank side of things. The main motivating factors are usually cost and space considerations, but there is no hard and fast rule. For example, if you were having a new tank made up, you could easily spec a combined/sectioned tank, so that you could have both fuels in one place. Money and imagination are the only limits. Another plus point, (if using two tanks), for the VO being in the external tank is that unlike diesel, VO does not absorb moisture, hence prolonging the lifespan of the tank.

With regards to the specifics though, I would just suggest that you think through the different possibilities and just decide which suits you best. Any design will always have some drawbacks. Minimising them is the key. One other thing I would suggest is to avoid any form of copper fittings in the VO feed design.

If you work on the assumption of trying to get a steady flow of fuel from the tank as early as possible, and making sure you have a final heater on the fuel line as late as possible, everything inbetween is open to artistic licence. You want a fast enough fuel flow, and at around optimal coolant temps when it hits the I.P. As long as the design achieves that, it'll work, and should work fine for years.

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by MattF

... VO does not absorb moisture...

VO is hygroscopic, it most certainly does absorb moisture, much more so than diesel fuel.

Heating the tank is unnecessary; just use a heated fuel pick-up.

Use a FPHE before the filter, and insulated fuel lines.

A HIH will cause problems, and a FPHE is significantly better.

Plantdrive makes the best SVO systems, avoid Frybrid.

[dagwill]

117.000 ks on wvo and going strong
adding to what i have said earlier dino[sor] diesel mixes well with wvo. if you are in a cold climate and have trouble with high viscosity wvo beimg sucked through fuel lines simply add varying amounts of dino to thin it down ie 20% in summer 33% in winter or whatever works for you,then a good heat exchange just befor the filter

[MattF]

Originally Posted by M John Galt

VO is hygroscopic, it most certainly does absorb moisture, much more so than diesel fuel.

A slip on my part there. I would disagree on it's absorption being higher than diesel however.

Originally Posted by M John Galt

Heating the tank is unnecessary; just use a heated fuel pick-up.

Use a FPHE before the filter, and insulated fuel lines.

A HIH will cause problems, and a FPHE is significantly better.

Insulated fuel lines would surely be a token gesture for the temps at which oil may become gelled/frozen? Fuel line heating of some form is required *as well* as the heat exchanger, in my opinion. Not just one or the other.
(Although, might one add, due to never being able to prove this due to our temps being somewhat milder, I'll digress if proven incorrect on this point).

Judging by the previous posts, I assume the O.P is referring to a heated pickup, and not a full tank heating setup?

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by MattF

Insulated fuel lines would surely be a token gesture for the temps at which oil may become gelled/frozen? Fuel line heating of some form is required *as well* as the heat exchanger, in my opinion. Not just one or the other.

People who are experienced with up-to-date VO systems use a coolant heated pick-up in the tank and run the coolant supply hose tie-wrapped to the fuel line and enclose the pair in pipe insulation. The coolant return line is run separately outside the insulation. A FPHE is used before the filter in the engine compartment. I posted a link earlier to many pages of pictures of FPHE installations.
Hose-in-hose is obsolete and very problematical.

[MattF]

Apologies on that John. I've only just realised that I did actually mention the hose in hose method in a previous post. I thought I had just mentioned heating the lines generally. My apologies.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by MattF

I wasn't picking on spelling. Honest. I meant foolish may be a better term than brave where rotary pumps and VO are concerned.

OK, I can see your concern: the fuel lubricates the pump... But isn't vegetable oil an inherently better lubricant than dino diesel? It would then mainly be a matter of getting the oil hot enough to get to the proper viscosity for effortless pumping... provided of course that the chemical characteristics of the oil will not detrimentally affect the injection pump (Anyone with the detailed functional schematics of the 1HD-T injection pump by any chance?)

OK I admit these are big Ifs and Provideds, but I cannot see this as an impossibility. It just requires experimentation. I wish I could afford to make that step, but I don't as I'm not independently wealthy. I'm sure though that someone, possibly in OZ, will surely try that in the near future, these engine setups being so abundant there it would be a much more natural step to take there than here, where they are rare and enormously expensive.

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by MattF

Apologies on that John. I've only just realised that I did actually mention the hose in hose method in a previous post. I thought I had just mentioned heating the lines generally. My apologies.

That's OK Matt, no offense taken or intended in my replies.

[MattF]

Originally Posted by 83bj60

OK, I can see your concern: the fuel lubricates the pump... But isn't vegetable oil an inherently better lubricant than dino diesel? It would then mainly be a matter of getting the oil hot enough to get to the proper viscosity for effortless pumping... provided of course that the chemical characteristics of the oil will not detrimentally affect the injection pump (Anyone with the detailed functional schematics of the 1HD-T injection pump by any chance?)

The problem is just due to the higher viscosity, as far as I know. It appears, from what info I've seen, that they are just on such tight tolerances that the higher viscosity of the VO has caused lack of lubrication, and then the shaft shears. Have seen quite a few say, (with regards to tractors, might I add), that making sure the oil is fully heated, as you mentioned above, before switching over to VO removes the problem, but I would still be a little apprehensive of trying, personally. As to whether other factors affect those pumps too with regards to VO, I honestly couldn't say.

[83bj60]

Thanks for the great answer. It is very informnative. I should try to find some injection pump schematics...

If the only problem is viscosity, clearly that can be controlled by proper heating. I'm just wondering about gaskets and other 'rubber' parts, how they would resist chemically as well as physically to the high temperatures.

If using WO at proper visccosity means heating the oil to 350F, I don't see a real problem. As long as the parts in the system can take the heat and the chemical corrosiveness...

[BJ42Brumby]

Not sure if it works over there but here in Aus all that pre-heating is not necessary. Heat filtered WVO to 120degC for about half an hour.. add small quantity of ethanol and soda, mix well and allow to settle for 24-48 hrs. Drain glycerine from the bottom and run the remainder through vehicle. Never had a problem in the 6 months I ran it without clogged fuel lines. Had to drain the water trap on the fuel filter a little more often but was good. Maybe it's not cold enough here.

[MrMoMo]

Just cross linking this thread because it seems to have some useful info in it! (fuel flow rates)

http://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/190539-diesel-fuel-flow-rates-12ht-1hz-2l-3b-etc.html

Incase anyone other than myself is hoping to use this thread as an aid!!

[joshoisasleep]

MattF: Why do you recommend avoiding the larger tank? Part of the advantage of doing the work for the conversion I would think would be the increased range. For me, at least, it would be a must...

Just wanted to say thanks MrMoMo for one of the best threads I've found on this so far. For someone trying to research SVO conversion AND learn about the specifics of integrating it into a 3b, this is really great. Too many of these threads get full of all the junk you mention in the first post, and after a while one finds oneself clicking through an endless circle of uninformative threads linking to one another...

I'm very encouraged now... this is looking simpler than I feared. I am hoping to do my conversion in two stages... aux fuel tank for range first, and then add heating for veg oil usage as time allows. Can't have my truck in a garage for weeks as it's also my home...


edit: Just noticed last post was months ago. Have you completed this project??

[MrMoMo]

Nope, not finished but started the build thread... (for anyone finding this and wondering what went on...)

http://forum.ih8mud.com/alternative-...up-thread.html