Toyota Red Article

[greauxpete]

This is an article about the Toyota Red versus off the shelf antifreeze:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...t/1272436.html

[e9999]

interesting
point to note for those of you who did the brass rad upgrade is where they differentiate between Al and Cu rads and how the coolants for each are incompatible...

[RavenTai]

diffrent article same author

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Pdf/082004_04.pdf

[Cattledog]

RavenTai,

Outstanding, that was the single clearest write up of coolant types I have seen.

Thanks

That link would be good for the faq in general maintance.

[Zane]

Originally Posted by e9999

interesting
point to note for those of you who did the brass rad upgrade is where they differentiate between Al and Cu rads and how the coolants for each are incompatible...

So, what are you saying? You can use toyota red in both an aluminum rad and a brass rad, but not able to swap fluids to green with one but you can with the other? I swapped my Aluminum rad with the toyota Brass Rad and flushed and filled with Toyota Red. I'm 99% sure that this is what I'm suposed to do, but this has got me thinking.

[450 Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Cattledog

RavenTai,

Outstanding, that was the single clearest write up of coolant types I have seen.

Thanks

That link would be good for the faq in general maintance.

I'm glad you're clear 'cause I'm now more confused. There's a Toyota "red" and a Toyota "pink" ? WTF? Isn't pink a hue of Red? Couldn't a more diluted red look like a pink? There's red in my 80 now. Or is there? I could see calling it pink.

I know, I know. That's why you baseline so you know exactly what's in there.

[RavenTai]

450 Cruiser, there is a new super long life coolant from toyota that is pink, the long life coolant of our vehicles ventage is red.

Genuine Toyota Super Long-Life Antifreeze/Coolant is the same high quality, factory-fill product found in new Toyotas. You'll know it by its distinctive pink color. It provides maximum protection and durability without the use of harmful silicates. And because it's compatible with non-metallic materials, it helps extend the life of water-pump seals. Don't trust your engine to anything less than the best: Genuine Toyota Super Long-Life Antifreeze/Coolant.

Originally Posted by zjz4476

So, what are you saying? You can use toyota red in both an aluminum rad and a brass rad, but not able to swap fluids to green with one but you can with the other? I swapped my Aluminum rad with the toyota Brass Rad and flushed and filled with Toyota Red. I'm 99% sure that this is what I'm suposed to do, but this has got me thinking.

The new organic acid antifreezes may be used only if the cooling system has an aluminum radiator (rather than copper-and-brass)

Now let's look at "retrofit" and "drain and fill" and explain what you can and can't do safely, and a bit of why. If a vehicle has a copper-and-brass radiator, forget a retrofit, says General Motors, because the org anic acid (orange) antifreeze may not provide adequate protection for the lead solder in that radiator.

these first two quotes seam to be about GM dexcool only, Dexcool dones nto seam to do a good job of protecting anything, dam EPA.

but this one from the 2004 motor article

Original equipment coolants are validated
for factory replacement parts. One of
the issues that may arise is the use of an
aftermarket replacement radiator or
heater core made of copper-brass with
lead solder. We have in previous articles
pointed out that today’s coolant inhibitor
packages contain a small amount
of copper-brass protection, but may
provide little protection if a radiator is
made with high-lead solder. Results of
industry standard tests of the new Toyota
extended-life coolant now show a
substantial weight loss (corrosion), both
in a 50-50 mix and in a 33% coolant
mixture (solder corrosion is much
greater in this more diluted solution).

If you have to change a radiator or
heater core, use aluminum. Or, if it’s an
older car and the owner wants the lowest-
cost radiator, you might procure a
soldered-together copper-brass unit.
Conventional American coolant should
provide better protection against solder
corrosion, which can result in radiator
tube restrictions and leaks. But no
coolant provides perfect protection.

at the "new Toyota extended-life coolant" is that the Pink or the Red?

so is the early OEM "brass" radiator soldered or brazed together?

1. if it is soldered &
2. if he is speaking of Red and not pink

iff al the above are true maybe those with the brass radiator should switch to standard green?



more

1999 article
http://members.fortunecity.com/paxford/coolant.htm

it does not talk about the solder corossion issue, I do not think the 2002 article I linked a year ago did either but I cannot find it now

another about hose failures, might explain the PHH

http://www.gates.com/downloads/downl...older=brochure

[RavenTai]

more

Solder Bloom -- by Paul Weissler Motor magazine Oct. 1982

The quick move by American antifreeze makers to formulations that provide good protection against aluminum corrosion has, to date, apparently forestalled a problem. Even the VW antifreeze has apparently been successful in this regard. There do not seem to be a lot of radiators being plugged by aluminum particles transferred from the cylinder head.

However, another cause of plugging persists; high-lead solder corrosion, called solder bloom, in the conventional copper-brass radiator. This corrosion shows up as a white deposit that can "bloom" over the tops of the radiator tubes, blocking them.

It's a problem that has nothing to do with the engine but results from the type of solder used at the tube-to-header joints, and in some cases, the way the solder is applied. There's no antifreeze inhibitor formula that seems to be able to stop it cold for long periods.

The problem of solder bloom is also unpredictable. Some radiators in some models years are apparently more prone than others. In any case, the problem usually takes several years to develop, and you can see it through the radiator fill neck.

Once you find it, about the only cure is to have the radiator cleaned. The best results are obtained with an ultrasonic cleaner, although a radiator shop's boilout tank may work if the cleaning solution is up to proper temperature and the caustic concentration is adequate. Never use the two-step oxalic acid cleaning method to remove solder bloom. Although some pour-in radiator cleaners are recommended for solder-bloom, the results are inconsistent and are poor if the bloom is severe.

The crimped-together and epoxy-sealed aluminum radiators do not encounter the solder bloom problem. However, their durability is yet to be proved. The early Rabbit and Scirocco radiators, for example, may be failing at a rate higher than conventional radiators, according to the National Automotive Radiator Service Association. There failures are primarily perforation-- that is, corrosion of the aluminum tubes starting from the inside and coming through. There is some indication that VW aluminum radiators aren't tolerant of cooling system neglect. VW's failure to prescribe cooling system flush and fill intervals may be a factor.

http://www.cycoactive.com/Urabus/urabus_cooling2.html

Though copper/brass has been steadily losing ground, a new lightweight "no-flux" brazed copper/brass radiator design may reverse the trend. The International Copper Association has developed this new technology to win back the auto makers with several important advantages. Because copper/brass cools more efficiently than aluminum, a copper/brass radiator can be smaller to reduce weight and space. One new design with a "compact core" dubbed "Cu/Br II" has two rows of fins between tubes and thinner tube walls. The radiator is about 7 percent lighter and 15 percent smaller than an aluminum radiator of comparable cooling capacity.

The new brazing technology for joining the tubes uses a copper/nickel/tin/phosphorus alloy which provides a stronger connection and is more environmentally acceptable than soldering (which uses tin/lead solder). Brazing also means "solder bloom" (a type of corrosion that can form inside soldered copper/brass radiators) won't occur.

The inside and outside of the new brazed copper/brass radiator is electroplated to give it "unprecedented" corrosion resistance - which is an essential requirement for all radiators today. The radiator can also be easily repaired and recycled, the same as other copper/brass radiators (nearly all of which end up being recycled). Furthermore, the amount of energy needed to produce one ton of copper from copper ore is only about 40 percent of that needed to produce aluminum from its ore, so the overall energy picture for copper/brass is more favorable than that of aluminum.

http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/Rad...ent%20Tips.htm

[CruiserLegolas]

This is clear as mud! I have the copper/brass rad and I'm running Toyota Red. This seems like the right combination.

Also, it's good to know that "copper/brass cools more efficiently than aluminum" but I don't think our 94 rads are the new brazed copper/brass kind. This is supposed to be a new design.

When I switched from green to red on the original 96 aluminum rad...that did me in because I don't think I flushed it right and I ended up with a red/green mixture.

[e9999]

what did the FSM say about coolant for the brass rad years?

[LandCrusher'70]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

another about hose failures, might explain the PHH

http://www.gates.com/downloads/downl...older=brochure

This saying ethyleneglycol antifreeze (green stuff) can cause deterioration of the hose. Right? But, there have been PHH failures with T-Red. Right?

[LandCrusher'70]

WTF happened to the color of my text?

EDIT: Nevermind, Fixed it

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by LandCrusher'70

This saying ethyleneglycol antifreeze (green stuff) can cause deterioration of the hose. Right? But, there have been PHH failures with T-Red. Right?

Almost all coolants are made of mostly ethylene glycol, this portion provides boil over and freeze protection, the differences between coolants are in the corrosion inhibitors and other additives withc are a small portion of the coolant.


There are a few propylene glycol coolants; the pet safe stuff is propylene glycol.

[phxtlc]

OK I'm totally confused...In my 92 OEM radiator was aluminum, right? And it should have Toyota Red in it right? and if I flush it I can only use Red again, but if I flush it REAL well then I can use anything, but I can only flush it real well if I take the block plug out and disconnect every hose and give the truck some flowers! WTF!?!

OK so here's the real question, what if the coolant is a nice shade of rusty brown?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by LandCrusher'70

This saying ethyleneglycol antifreeze (green stuff) can cause deterioration of the hose. Right? But, there have been PHH failures with T-Red. Right?

It doesn't blame the coolant. It attributes the degradation of the hose to electrolysis.

The old style green coolant and the Toyota Red are both based on ethylene glycol. The variance between the two is the anti corrosion additive package.

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by phxtlc

OK I'm totally confused...In my 92 OEM radiator was aluminum, right? And it should have Toyota Red in it right? and if I flush it I can only use Red again, but if I flush it REAL well then I can use anything, but I can only flush it real well if I take the block plug out and disconnect every hose and give the truck some flowers! WTF!?!

OK so here's the real question, what if the coolant is a nice shade of rusty brown?

you are not the only one, that article was the first place I had heard of problems with Toyota coolant and solder, still have not confirmed if this is truly a problem with classic Toyota red or just the new Toyota pink, CDan's experience with his brass radiator and supercharger in New Mexico using only Toyota red would lead me to believe that it is not a problem in this case but would still like to hear more about it.

Rusty brown coolant is bad, It could just be a mix of green and red, often mechanics fail to open the heater valve and get the old coolant out of the heater when performing maintenance. or worse just fill back up with green when part is replace with out even attempting to get all the old coolant out, replacing the thermostat is recommended baseline PM in a new to you 80.

Or it could be rust from an ignored cooling system, either way it needs to come out ASAP. If you get all of the old coolant out you can put in green or red.

I do not know when Toyota started with the red,

The 95-97 FZJ80 is a 2 row aluminum, 93/94 FZJ80 3 row brass, , 88-90 FJ62 radiator is brass,

Following that it would make sense that the 91/92 FJ80 radiator was also brass/copper as aluminum radiators are a newer thing, but I do not know for certain,

[semlin]

is this in the faq yet? romer?

[RavenTai]

have we have figured out anything new yet?

[Romer]

Originally Posted by semlin

is this in the faq yet? romer?

It will be Simon.

What about the codes you promised me? Simon?

[alaskacruiser]

Speaking of coolant and red vs. green, can someone tell me what brand AND type of green coolant is safe to use? I know not to use the Dexcool / GL-5 stuff, but not what specifically is recommended if you're switching to green.

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by alaskacruiser

Speaking of coolant and red vs. green, can someone tell me what brand AND type of green coolant is safe to use? I know not to use the Dexcool / GL-5 stuff, but not what specifically is recommended if you're switching to green.

That is a good question, it used to be prestone green was the standard lots of silicate and phosphate corosion inhibitors, prestone does not make the green anymore, they now have a "Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant" coolant with a gold/yellow color, I dont know much about it, is it the same stuff with just doffrent color dye or is there more to it? Prestones site does not give ay info

[alaskacruiser]

bump