RTI Ramp/Travel pics, lift changes, sway bars...for reference

[FirstToy]

FJBen, thanks for all the info and pics.

Nay,
nice writeup but I'm still unsure exactly what you are running.

what specific shocks are you running and what valving?
I gather you have custom 3" coils, 35's lower bumpstops.

[Buckru]

I have been following this thread closely and thought I had a pretty good idea of what my long term plans would be, a great expedition rig with outstanding flex. Then I read for expedition running up travel becomes more important. I understand the benefits of having balanced flex, which I thought would be important for any type of rig, but why is up travel for expedetion running more important than flex? OK, maybe not more important. Would it be better to say it deserves greater consideration? Elighten me oh wise ones of suspension.


Buck

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by Buckru

I have been following this thread closely and thought I had a pretty good idea of what my long term plans would be, a great expedition rig with outstanding flex. Then I read for expedition running up travel becomes more important. I understand the benefits of having balanced flex, which I thought would be important for any type of rig, but why is up travel for expedetion running more important than flex? OK, maybe not more important. Would it be better to say it deserves greater consideration? Elighten me oh wise ones of suspension.


Buck

Optimally you want balanced 50.50 or 60/40 travel out of your shocks/suspension. It will work nicely this way.

We need to keep the terms defined correctly again.

Uptravel, stuff, compressed
Downtravel, droop, extended

Flex = articulate ie one tire stuffed, the other drooped (my avitar pic!)

In expedition terms, you are most likely running a heavy cruiser. front/rear bumpers, spare tire, gas, sliders, water, roof tent, drawer system, winch, packed full of gear. Your cruiser will be loaded down and hence "sag" due to the weight. If you don't have uptravel available, you'll be hitting your bumpstops or bottoming out over bumps all the time. What good does a ton of droop do you on a rig that rarely see's deep ditches, large rocks or spots that don't require flex???

Basically, build your rig to suit what you are going to do. Make sure your bumpstops are just before the limit of your shocks under compression. On extension you aren't really going to have to worry about that with a stock front suspension on an 80. you won't max it out without doing what I have tried in this thread. My rig would probably be a bit wallowy if I really loaded her down for expedion use without my swaybars...just my .02 cents.

[Nay]

You are really either building for rock crawling type performance, which means little or no extra weight, the largest tires possible for the least amount of necessary lift, and a focus on clearance and suspension balance in highly variable and unstable conditions.

Or you are building for "expedition" and have probably added a ton of weight in bumpers and other stuff. 80's are already heavy, so if you add a thousand lbs and want to run fast over offroad terrain, you better have a suspension that allows a lot of compression, which therefore limits tire size for the lift....but you don't need the huge tires for expedition work.

While these two goals are quite contrary, they aren't mutually exclusive. My rig is designed for rock crawling, but it carries four kids and gear as well. My suspension is designed for 50/50 balance on a relatively small lift (3") with 35" tires, so I'm going to be driving slower in "expedition" conditions and I have a 35" spare that eats up half of my roof rack.

That is an acceptable compromise. With OME and 33's I referred to her as "Moby" and now its "Mountain Goat". It is easy to drive slower, not so easy to make up for a suspension that is not optimized for serious rock crawling.

Nay

[FJBen]

Here's a few more "real world" testing photos.

the 96/69 FZJ80/45ish, stock arms, no sways with a 2.5" OME
The 97 40th with OMEJ's spacers, Caster plates, L's
The 93 4"/J" no sway bars, L's, hitch pin pulled in the photo

[kennyv0826]

I know this is probably a silly question, but is there a way to make the front of an 80 flex better without a massive redesign of the front suspension. Also I've noticed from this thread that removing one of the front link bolts will allow more flex. How safe is it to drive the vehicle this way?

[FJBen]

Another posuer shot...We were positive Starbucks was just on the other side of the rock...

I did not lift a tire yet, although it was getting a little light at this point.

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by kennyv0826

I know this is probably a silly question, but is there a way to make the front of an 80 flex better without a massive redesign of the front suspension. Also I've noticed from this thread that removing one of the front link bolts will allow more flex. How safe is it to drive the vehicle this way?

I only remove that bolt off-road...it's the "hitch-pin" mod. I keep it in on the road and it drives the same as it does stock. (minus sway bars)

If you are looking for more travel...without a complete remodify of the front end...I would start by pulling the front swaybars and checking your shock lenghts/position. I can max my shocks out up front with just my swaybar pulled....Just be sure on compression you won't squish them. I believe there is PLENTY of flex there to begine with honestly. I don't think Kevin lifted a tire (although I didn't watch his starbucks lines he took) And I tried the hardest lines to flex mine and could lift a tire even with the pin in.

What springs/setup are you using?

Those lesser leaf sprung vehicles seemed to be lifting a WHOLE lot more than the 80's.

[Skim]

the 96/69 FZJ80/45ish, stock arms, no sways with a 2.5" OME

Anymore information on this rig ? sounds cool.

[FJBen]

UPDATING THE THREAD...same as the shock mount, just for searching purposes...

In a quest for bilsteins, we all know we have to convert to eye configuration on the top in rear of the 80 series. You can buy bolt in converters, but you will loose 1" maybe a little more depending on the style. I wanted to run longer shocks as well to get every ounce of flex I can out of the cruiser without going stupidly custom. I was running "L" shocks and was easily able to fully stuff/extend them.

Well, I have it...more travel than I will probably EVER use on this in the rear. I took the idea from actionjackson, modified it to work with a stock (no bodylift) setup. Basically a conversion to pin style that mounts on top of the factory spot gaining more extension.

Right now, I have sorry test shocks some crappy pro-comp 14" travel shocks on there. Extended 32.8" comp. 18.8", and I still have ~1.5" to spare on compression. I haven't lost any compressed length from the L shocks! same stuff, a bit more droop!

So heres what I made, took a piece of 2X4" 3/16" sqaure tube and plasma'd out the shape I have attached. Drilled the holes, just enough for very minor adjustment and still sit on top and used the factory bolts up from the bottom. There was plenty of room to add nuts on top to secure it. You better be a bit dextros with this setup as it's a lot of reaching up and not seeing what you are doing. The style that ATS4x4.com has is very sweet and at that price, worth it rather than building your own unless you are just bored or prideful.

Pic #1 is the drawing and measurements:
Pic #2 how it looks on the vehicle
Pic #3 1st flex pic, 30 degree ramp, standard 80 setup, 14" rear shocks, the front tire was 29" off the ground at the bottom/center





Pic#1 Same setup except for the "hitch pin pulled", tire was 33" above ground
Pic#2 Same setup except for hitch pin pulled, and front shock disconnected to simulate better spaced travel/extensions up front tire 37" above ground.
Pic#3 Going backwards same as #2, tire 37" off...

You can tell there are some pretty serious gains from my last RTI thread outing, I will be adding this to that RTI thread as well. With the front in the standard setup (L shocks/pin in) she was leaning pretty good as you could tell the rear was doing all the work, with the front shocks in a better travel range/pin pulled it wasn't leaning *that* bad for how high she went up.

Definintely beyond satified with the flex, bilsteins are on order, next to get the front shocks replaced/spaced correctly.

[Slomo]

Good info and thanks for sharing. Wondering if the rear driveshaft is stock and if so any issues arising with the splines at full flex with this newfound travel? Is a longer travel driveshaft required? Nice work.

[concretejungle]

slomo, not trying to speak out of turn, but i was curious about the same thing you just mentioined. I had a driveshaft shop make me a double cardan shaft. While i was there i noticed it was about a half inch shorter than my stock shaft. The builder told me it would be fine. I said i was worried about it coming apart when i'm flexed out. He said it would never move that much and to prove it he brought out the fork lift. We marked the location of the slip yoke while sitting, then he lifted the front wheel until the back wheel flexed completely until it almost came off the ground. The shaft only slide out of the yoke about 1/4 of an inch after all that movement. I was suprised.

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by Slomo

Good info and thanks for sharing. Wondering if the rear driveshaft is stock and if so any issues arising with the splines at full flex with this newfound travel? Is a longer travel driveshaft required? Nice work.

I don't believe with this setup that a long travel driveshaft is warranted. I'm using all 14" of those shocks and I can't imagine that driveshaft pulling out that far. I'll check it again just to make sure and see how much it moves.

[Tools R Us]

With the radius arm and 4 link setups the axles move in an arc, the driveshaft's don't change length much, making longer slip yokes unnecessary.

[DBS311]

I still can't understand why you guys looking for more travel from the front of your radius arm suspension don't lengthen the arms! In the early Bronco community we have been finding the pros/cons of wristed arms (similar to you pulling the pin), lengthened arms, rubber bushings, urethane bushings, heims, wristed axle housings (and any combination of those mentioned) for years. Lengthening the radius arms gives you a better ride, a lot more flex, and it reduces the steep radius arm angle you get when lifting the vehicle. We all know that as the suspension cycles it moves in an arc, and that arc becomes more drastic with the lift and stock length radius arm. Long arms reduce the drastic arc. Somebody please do this so others may see the light.

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by DBS311

... Somebody please do this so others may see the light.

Why not you? How long are stock bronco arms and how much are they lengthening them?

[Slomo]

concretejungle, FJBen, and Tools R Us, thank you for the info.

[DBS311]

Don't have an 80, so I can't really test this out.

We typically lengthen the Bronco arms 10-12" and it makes a world of difference.

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by DBS311

Don't have an 80, so I can't really test this out.

OK.

Originally Posted by DBS311

We typically lengthen the Bronco arms 10-12" and it makes a world of difference.

How long are stock bronco arms?

[FJBen]

from what I kinda searched on, it says 35" for the broncos, but I don't know if thats overall, or minus a few inches on where the bushing for the frame mount is.


<<<EDIT>>>
So you are telling me that the extended arm length arms are 45" plus long?

[-XXX-]

Keep the sway bars...in the long run you will be gald you did, make a sway bar disconnect- PM me for plans on how to make them, if you can accomodate them do it. love the flex you got after the new rear shock mounts. My .02

[concretejungle]

well on the show "trucks" on Spike TV, they were building up a bronco and moved the rear mount back about 6 inches to compensate the new, longer arms. Don't know if that tells us too much....

[ats4x4dotcom]

Have tried the longer arm, and it allowed the front to free rotate an extra 6" from the standard length arms, and with rose jointed rear arm mount, an extra 8", which is only 2" more, but would allow the bushes to last alot longer.

Wehave been trying 2 part poly front arm bushes with steel sleeves, to allow the sleeve to rotate in the bush, on the diff, which allows for better 'free" travel, but will need to minitor the wear on them over factory bushes.

We have tried drilling holes in the standard bushes also, to try and free them up, but they dont last as well.

We have also played with shock valving to run lighter sway bars, which bend to 90 deg apposing themselves at full travel with a 14" shock, and make the vehicle drive better than no sway bars.

Most sway bars effect travel, because the links each end arent lengthened to ensure the bar allows the suspension to droop fully, and compress fully, so the sway bar becomes the suspension limiter.

[alkaline747trio]

Ben, do you run trails with the hitchpin removed? I started to this week and just wasn't comfortable with the strength of the axle mounts, do you worry about this?

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by ats4x4dotcom

Have tried the longer arm, and it allowed the front to free rotate an extra 6" from the standard length arms, and with rose jointed rear arm mount, an extra 8", which is only 2" more, but would allow the bushes to last alot longer.

How much longer did you make the arms? It seems you could go about 6-7"?

I run with the hitch-pin removed. haven't seen any issues yet, although I haven't been beating it around everyweekend. Personally if I continue to use that and not do any different mods up front, i'll really beef the mounts up. Tools-R-us is running that setup with his custom arms, although his are thinner.