[Romer]

Dual battery setups.

I have moved the washer bottle with Slee’s kit

I have installed the 2nd battery tray from Cdan. Did the required trimming on the fan shroud side with a cutoff tool. Wearing glasses was great advice.

Now the problem is which setup I should use. I know there are lots of setups, but I have been concentrating on the following 3 setups. These are my first impressions. I would appreciate help in making corrections and additions here.

Hellroaring, as well described by Cruiserdrew in this thread:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/36775-dual-battery-install-way-verbose.html

Painless as well described by Elmarichai in this thread:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/85505-dual-battery-install-painless-wiring-kit.html

And the Sure Power system. Cruiserhead05 has some pics of his Sure Power kit purchased from Ironpig Offroad here: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php...17&postcount=2

Ironpig sells theirs as a complete kit with the tray and relocation setup. There is a local dealer for the Sure Power set-up so I would probably go there and buy the components.

So the decision comes down to which of the 3 systems do I pick. The people who have the systems are real happy and will obviously recommend what they have. So going through all the info, I thought I would come up with what the differences and capabilities are and share that for comment:

Painless Setup:

1) Configuration is completely manual.
2) You can leave everything (accessories)hooked up to the same charging circuit and swap your battery in or out to power the circuit. E.g. you don’t power your frigerator off the backup and the other stuff off the main.
3) Allows you to charge both batteries or just one (either main or back-up)
EDIT: In PM's I found Out this is not the standard way to configure but a special configuration elmariachi came up with. I believe he is going to update his thread.

4) Allows you to switch power draw to the back-up battery when parked overnight to run frigs, radio’s etc.
5) If only charging one battery, can swap to other battery if Alt fails.

Disadvantage to other set-ups I see is no automatic feature to detect a problem, bad alt or other, to isolate batteries for protection.

Advantage is cost and you configure exactly how you want it. Also, does not allow both batteries to be in charging loop when vehicle is off. This prevents forgetting to take one battery out of circuit.

Hellroaring:

1) Loads run off your main battery
2) Can combine both batteries for extra starting power or winching power.
3) Wire all your accessories off the main (needs to be deep cycle) If main drains, Auxilary will be swapped in via a switch to start.
4) Automatic detection of battery charge state for isolation or charging

Advantage is your backup battery has no drains so in theory, it should always be fully charged. E.g. a short on your main line could draw down your main while running the frige all night on the back-up could leave you with no good battery

Disadvantage is more expensive then painless. Does not appear you can isolate your main battery from the loads


Sure Power:
1) Automatically connects to charge both batteries when senses a charge from the alt
2) Automatically disconnects when senses no charge from the alt. So off they are disconnected.
3) Can wire your accessories like frig and other stuff you would run overnight off the back-up battery. This way you won’t run down the main. Can also wire everything to the main
4) An auxiliary start feature from the backup rig is available to allow the backup battery start the truck if the main dies. It does this automatically if it sense the main battery is dead

Advantage is backup start feature and the ability to add a switch to tie the two loads together.

Disadvantage is more expensive then painless. Does not appear you can isolate your main battery from the loads

Questions I have:


Painless:
Do you normally drive with switch in combine to charge both batteries, or do you isolate them to prevent something from draining both batteries while you are driving like a bad alternator?
Is there another way to see you have a bad alt before the voltage stops to drop (see on gauge)?
How long would a fully charged battery be OK if isolated from the charging circuit.

Hellroaring:
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?
If your alternator is bad (Cause of dead main battery) will the backup be able to do more than just start you, can it effectively run all your electronics.
Looks like wire from backup goes to starter. Is this the wire that takes the backup battery power and powers the loads via the main battery?
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?


Sure Power:
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?
If your alternator is bad (Cause of dead main battery) will the backup be able to do more than just start you, can it effectively run all your electronics.
Looks like wire from backup goes to starter. Is this the wire that takes the backup battery power and powers the loads via the main battery?
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?

Again I appreciate comments. There is a lot of spec sheets and other documentation and they are not always clear.

[Hants]

Originally Posted by Romer

Painless:
Do you normally drive with switch in combine to charge both batteries, or do you isolate them to prevent something from draining both batteries while you are driving like a bad alternator?
Is there another way to see you have a bad alt before the voltage stops to drop (see on gauge)?
How long would a fully charged battery be OK if isolated from the charging circuit.

There is an Alternator Good signal that goes to the dash. I assume (but have not personally checked) that there is an idiot light there to indicate failure).

An AGM or Spiral Cell battery has a very low self-discharge rate, and, with no load, would sit for months without issue. Typical starter and wet deep cycle batteries have high self-discharge rates, and may have problems after even a month.

My concern with this setup is leaving a switch in the wrong position and not fully charging BOTH batteries when the engine is on.

Originally Posted by Romer

Hellroaring:
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?
If your alternator is bad (Cause of dead main battery) will the backup be able to do more than just start you, can it effectively run all your electronics.
Looks like wire from backup goes to starter. Is this the wire that takes the backup battery power and powers the loads via the main battery?
If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?

I don't know the specifics of the Hellroaring system. If your main battery and alternator are both dead and you parallel the backup (self-jump), the backup is going to be drawn down by both the EFI/ECU and other "normal" loads, and ALSO "charging" the main battery.

That said, I haven't seen a high incidence of alternator failures on any forum.

My concern with the Hellroaring system is that high DOD loads (fridge is the most common example) are run off of the MAIN battery. Typical starting batteries have a very low tolerance for repeated deep discharges. ALL batteries have limited (or no) tolerance for repeated 100% discharges. You should probably consider an AGM or spiral cell battery for your MAIN battery with this system.

Have you looked into a "custom" system using the BlueSea ACR (or other high-current solenoid)? I'm not aware of any off the shelf, currently shipping, systems that will support the full load of a winch (up to 475A for the Warn).

[TroutRunner]

Originally Posted by Romer

Hellroaring:
1.If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?
2.If your alternator is bad (Cause of dead main battery) will the backup be able to do more than just start you, can it effectively run all your electronics.
3.Looks like wire from backup goes to starter. Is this the wire that takes the backup battery power and powers the loads via the main battery?
4.If you flip the switch to start the vehicle, is the main still in the loop potentially drawing down the main?

I'm by no means an expert but I can answer some questions on the Hellroaring set-up.

1. When you "flip the switch" essentially this will combine both batteries. Basically you are jumping the dead main with your fresh and fully charged back-up. Keeping in mind that in regular mode both are charged but all loads are off the main.

2.According to the Hellroaring website if your alternator is bad you flip the switch and all will be powered the same. You have the juice in the battery to get you where you need to be. He estimated??? about 2 hours but I have no idea what the time on a fresh battery will be.

3. The back up is conected from the BIC (battery isolator/combiner) to the "starter" In reality, I hooked mine to the Positive terminal on the Main battery. Beowulf, I believe did the same thing. If you scan through the Hellroaring website and find the installation instructions you will see where he comments on "connecting to the starter" and states that doing it this way (to the pos) is not a big deal and can be desirable.

4. Not sure if this works for your question but here goes: I too was worried about a massive short in the main that when the switch is flipped would short the back-up leaving you screwed. I called Mike at Hellroaring (very helpful by the way) and he said it was possible but highly unlikely to have a short in the main that was big enough to cause that kind of problem. He was thinking to cause this kind of short you have to drop a wrench on both pos and neg and have it stay that way melting the whole system down. I did install a 150amp fuse between the main and the BIC to avoid a problem if one may occur. If this fuse is shot, my BIC and back-up are protected.

Overall, the system was pretty easy to install. Looks really clean. His remote switch has a LED and a on/off/on switch. OFF - charge both, run off main. ON 1 - charge both, run both together. ON 2 - Isolate the batteries from each other. There is an LED on the BIC if you want to check out his diagnostics. I haven't taken the time to learn this part yet. Check his site for more info.

I chose a simple on/off switch for OFF and the above ON 1. Because I have a 21 month old and another coming in July (switches and lights are very cool), I kept my switch on the back-up battery tray to keep little fingers from running both batteries down. I don't see myself doing a lot of switching except if I can't start so keeping it under the hood was fine by me. I also didn't want to do switches if is wasn't needed. At this point I drive around and do nothing unless there is no power. Then I pop the hood (probably wound anyway) and flip a switch. Drive off. When both are charged after a bit of driving (assuming intact alternator) I flip the switch back.

My main goal was a backup system for starting. Being in a stuck auto with the wife and two little ones would really suck. I can also run a fridge, radio, other plug ins, lights, and down the road a winch with a solid back-up in the wings.

TR

[TroutRunner]

Originally Posted by Hants

I don't know the specifics of the Hellroaring system. If your main battery and alternator are both dead and you parallel the backup (self-jump), the backup is going to be drawn down by both the EFI/ECU and other "normal" loads, and ALSO "charging" the main battery.

That said, I haven't seen a high incidence of alternator failures on any forum.

My concern with the Hellroaring system is that high DOD loads (fridge is the most common example) are run off of the MAIN battery. Typical starting batteries have a very low tolerance for repeated deep discharges. ALL batteries have limited (or no) tolerance for repeated 100% discharges. You should probably consider an AGM or spiral cell battery for your MAIN battery with this system.

If your going to run other things that will draw the battery down you must get a deep cycle battery for the main. You can, however, put a starting battery in the back-up position without any problem except for maybe discharging it down during a long winch episode when both are combined.

I went dual deeps (D34M's Optima Blues). I'm assuming the main will fail first from more use. Then I will move the back-up to the main and by a new battery for the back-up. Best to keep your best battery as the back-up.

TR

[mobi-arc]

Slee uses POWER-GATE. It isolated the aux. from the main without voltage drop and heat generated by other isolators and solenoids.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by mobi-arc

Slee uses POWER-GATE.

Who makes and sells this Power-gate thingie and how much does it cost?

-B-

[nakman]

Romer, you put way too much thought into your mods. I realize your questioning is intentfully pedagogical, but good gawd man just buy one already

The people who have the systems are real happy and will obviously recommend what they have.

See? you already answered your own question. They're all great. You're welcome to mess with my hellroaring next time we hang out, I'll second the comment that he's a cool guy as well. Only time I've ever had to use it was when I left the seat heater on for a week in the garage, but it sure was cool to flip the switch & jump myself. Man that was as move, ok back to

[tech_dog]

Most of the time, you want your dual battery system to be automatic and invisible. The ability to automatically charge both batteries when the car is on, and the automatic isolation of the batteries when the car is off, without having to flip any swithces, is an absolute requirement. (IMHO, of course)

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by nakman

Romer, you put way too much thought into your mods. I realize your questioning is intentfully pedagogical, but good gawd man just buy one already

He at least does the mods. There is a certain 100 series forum moderator who makes Romer look good in this regard, which as you point out, is difficult.

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Who makes and sells this Power-gate thingie and how much does it cost?

-B-

Now that's funny. I think a vacation from Mud may be in order! Don't be too hard on him this time....

Actually, looking forward to the show.

[mobi-arc]

Cheers to that. Automatic, invisible....like it's not even there.

Originally Posted by tech_dog

Most of the time, you want your dual battery system to be automatic and invisible. The ability to automatically charge both batteries when the car is on, and the automatic isolation of the batteries when the car is off, without having to flip any swithces, is an absolute requirement. (IMHO, of course)

[TCH2FLY]

Originally Posted by mobi-arc

Cheers to that. Automatic, invisible....like it's not even there.

Another yes to.... Automatic and invisible....

Over the last 20 yrs I have had several 4x4s (Cruisers and lesser brands) and I have never used anything more than a simple isolator system. I have never had any of the burn-out issues others experienced.

I believe in being prepared and being able to handle any situation that might arise but to build a complex system so that in the unlikely event my main battery is dead and I can jump it by flipping a switch........not needed in my book.
It does have a certain ''cool'' factor but the possibility of operator error increases greatly. I have never had a battery in any of my dual systems go dead... *knocks on wood*.. but if one did I can self-jump using cables, slightly more time consuming but gets the same job done.

I do like what I see with the Power-gate units (except the $) and I may go from my simple isolator to the Power-gate isolator/combiner because it does what I need with simple wiring and limited chance for operator error.

[re_guderian]

I have the hellroaring unit setup like Drew's. Call Mike there, he is very helpful. They also sell a few different models that can be used to run loads off of the auxillary batt. I think that most on this board (including me) have chosen the model that completely isolates the backup. I don't run many (OK, no) aux. loads, so not a big deal for me. I think with any system that runs loads off the backup batt, you run the risk of 2 dead batts. Depends on what you want to use the system for, I guess. I also ran the wire to the main batt + terminal instead of the starter. For my purpose, it works great, and I can't say enough good things about Mike there helping out. Very good at answering your questions.

[Romer]

Originally Posted by nakman

Romer, you put way too much thought into your mods. I realize your questioning is intentfully pedagogical, but good gawd man just buy one already

Geez, I post one thread. If I had posted several over a few weeks or months, I would understand

Tim my young friend, you just turned 34 a few days ago if I recall. Too many times something on the surface looked great and I rushed off and bought it, only to hear about an option in another set-up that I would have preferred. Age has given me patience as I am approaching 45 in a few weeks.

Plus, I am an engineer and need to evaluate to a certain level before selecting my solution.

You are right on the pedagogical, why do you think I just did an FAQ on OME lifts. I am going to swap out my springs and wanted to educate myself more on the lifts and technical aspects. In doing so, why not type it up and share it.

The truth of the matter is I probably would have just bought the painless set-up yesterday before I posted this. I like the manual capability and being able to run and isolate my back-up battery when I want to run toys. This is of course a slight modification created by Elmarichai.

Edit: I also like Elmarichais setup that I can run all loads off the main, back-up or both. Nothing hardwired to either, this is a configuration setup I like.

I do like the automatic safety features of the others though. Just thought I would throw out the three I considered for comment to get some real experiences besides just whats on the spec sheet.

Hmmm, Power-gate. Have to look into those first.

Thanks Andy, I do perform the mods I ask about and not months later.

Right now on my Plate (expect to complete over the next few weeks):
Get and install a new bumper on my FJ40 from Hawkdriver
Swapout Med OME's for 850J/863 setup
Complete Dual battery set-up

Next up - Debating swapping out my 33's for 35's on my FJ40

[desertdude]

No Matter which system you choose- be sure to include a voltage monitoring system ( like a simple volt meter and switch) to keep you informed on what is happening with the batteries.

Most of the described DB systems will work under normal use - where certain systems shine is when you need the power in the most demanding situation.

Turning a switch is not the end of the world - setting up a complete manual switch system requires little effort to use .

I have two HR systems in seperate vehicles - they have never let me down so far in 1.5 years -

[Romer]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Who makes and sells this Power-gate thingie and how much does it cost?

-B-

I forgot - mobi-arc mentioned it because he sells them and a while back there was some"discussion" when he was really pushing it over the others.

It's linked in his sig line

http://www.perfectswitch.com/isolatorcombiner.htm#

A lot more money than the others and I don't see and big advantage.

Don't get started mobi-arc, it's not nice to fight with a moderator

[tech_dog]

Here's a link to what I did, for the benefit of future generations who may not stumble across that thread. At this point it's not proven long term, but it seems to be working as expected: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.p...t=dual+battery

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Romer

A lot more money than the others and I don't see and big advantage.
Don't get started mobi-arc, it's not nice to fight with a moderator

Thanks Ken!

I copied CruiserDrew's Hellroaring installation and I want to thank Andrew profusely for making my life much easier. The HR system meets the "simple install and forget about it" criteria very well and it costs about 1/10th of that Power-whatever-thingie.

-B-

[mobi-arc]

Like stink on a monkey -B-

Whatever you do, don't buy that powergate-thingie. Christo really likes poorly engineered crap on his truck.....that's why he uses POWER-GATE. With customers like Ingersoll-Rand and the US Army....boy are they suckers paying up for a unit like that.....or do they know something that -B- doesn't?

If you're cost sensitive, solenoid is the best way to go. If you are looking for an isolator that generates no heat and doesn't waste power.....if you're looking for the best money can buy, consider that powergate thingie.....everything else is a compromise.

[TroutRunner]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Thanks Ken!

I copied CruiserDrew's Hellroaring installation and I want to thank Andrew profusely for making my life much easier. The HR system meets the "simple install and forget about it" criteria very well and it costs about 1/10th of that Power-whatever-thingie.

-B-

I then copied CruiserDrew and Beowulf. In fact, I saw Beo's on a Saturday and bought the sucker on Wednesday.

TR

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by mobi-arc

Whatever you do, don't buy that powergate-thingie.

OK. Good advice straight from someone that should know.

-B-

[Romer]

Originally Posted by mobi-arc

Like stink on a monkey -B-

Whatever you do, don't buy that powergate-thingie. Christo really likes poorly engineered crap on his truck.....that's why he uses POWER-GATE. With customers like Ingersoll-Rand and the US Army....boy are they suckers paying up for a unit like that.....or do they know something that -B- doesn't?

If you're cost sensitive, solenoid is the best way to go. If you are looking for an isolator that generates no heat and doesn't waste power.....if you're looking for the best money can buy, consider that powergate thingie.....evething else is a compromise.

I never said it was a piece of crap.

I am sure it is designed and built for environments that the military would see.

However, If it's that extra robustness that makes it SOOOO much more expensive than the other set-ups, it's over engineered for our application.

Being an engineer myself, I know there is a balance between cost and technical. You want to design for what meets the requirements with reliability and nothing more.

So, If I can get the performance I need for half the price with a Hellroaring or sure power, why spend double for the powergate?

You said it yourself, "if your looking for the best money can buy." Ummm , no we are looking for the best value for our application that meets our requirements.

And no, this is not an opportunity for you to respond as to why your product is better. You have done way too much of that already

[desertdude]

and away we go

[cruiserdan]

If I stick 8 "D" cells in series I get 12 volts. I'm working on a parallell set-up with a bunch of 8 "D" cell packs. I haven't hit the magic number yet. Anybody know how many packs it should take to get enough amperage to crank the motor over?

[desertdude]

I am always relaxed when my campsite is right next to you

I also figure you have long jumper cables within reach

[Romer]

Originally Posted by desertdude

I am always relaxed when my campsite is right next to you

I also figure you have long jumper cables within reach

Did his wife try and take YOUR shoes Off, must not have if you felt relaxed. Just ask B-

BTW- I notice mobi doesn't own an 80, he is one of Erics' 100 series buddy's (figures).

BTW2- It's OK to answer questions about your products in tech, It's not OK to bring them up as solutions (repeatedly). He is free to PM the author of the thread to inform them of his proposed solution and if they want to add it to the mix, that's OK. Don't bother PMing me though.

For a mobi history lesson look here http://forum.ih8mud.com/winching-recovery/84242-dual-battery-questions.html

[desertdude]

I think Sarah knows better

-------------------------------------------------------

I thought Scott ( Mobi Arc) owned an 80 series - Scott?

I would install a Power Switch on my trucks if he gave me one for free for review - ( and I could do a fine review) I don't see them included on Slee's site yet...

Anyway - a manual switch is the best contact when you need all the power - a management system when you are too damn old to remember where the switch is at any given moment. and maybe too lazy to figure all the wiring.

Or just hang out with folks that have long jumper cables

[Cruiserdrew]

I was kind of excited about the Power-Gate until the exchanges in the outfitting section. I still have a wish to do a dual battery in my 60, and like DD will be happy to demo a free Power-Gate. I'll even write a review on this site. To my knowledge, Christo may use the device, but I've never seen him review it.

Since a free Power-Gate isn't realistic, and 100% of my experience with Hell Roaring has been positive, I'm going that route again when the spirit moves me. I'm glad you guys found my old write up useful.

Romer-there is one other way to proceed that the Venezuelan guys use, if you really want redundant. They mount a second Chevy alternator, powering a second battery and basically have a parallel electrical system that can run the whole truck. I've seen several of the installs, and it's clean and workable. Way too much trouble for me, but for work deep in the 3rd world, it might be OK.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I'm glad you guys found my old write up useful.

It was more than useful, it was the perfect roadmap for my install. I changed up a few things but nothing major. I wanted a location on the aux battery tray that would allow me to tap +12v from the primary battery, so I used the big Hellroaring fuse where you did but instead of the ground side, it fuses the +12v from the primary battery. I also copied ParadiseCruiser's idea and booty fabbed a horizontal mount for the HR and a small fuse panel.

-B-

[mobi-arc]

Originally Posted by Romer

Ummm , no we are looking for the best value for our application that meets our requirements.

Ken, you stated it perfectly. In engineering, everything is a compromise with respect to price, performance, efficiency, size, etc....In the sub-150 amp Land Cruiser arena, you can compromise price and performance to achieve best value. It's the difference of going with a product with resistance measured in milliohms or micro-ohms. Okay with milliohms, it will cost less at the expense of performance. Acceptable? To each their own. Want micro-ohm arena at three times the current? Sorry. Costs more. Acceptable? To each their own. I used a $20 solenoid on my dual battery setup for 8 months in Africa. Cheap, easy, no complaints. I do acknowledge that a better solution with no moving parts, had it been available at the time, would have been something to consider. I was looking for something bulletproof and the technology wasn't there yet. I wish P-GATE were more moderately priced, but the package is state-of-the art and it's inherently expensive. I guess that's the price of progress. Do your homework. Compare your options. Decide what compromises your willing to accept and roll the dice.

PS) Sold my 80 and bought a 100 several years back. Ken, what type of engineer are you?

[elmariachi]

This whole dual battery setup has endless configuration possibilities and could drive one mad trying to determine what a good system should include. An ideal system would offer switching, isolation, redundancy, detailed metering and feedback and only cost $50. Unfortunately, my ADD and budget stopped long short of all that when I found the Painless kit a few years ago. I have had some awesome setups on my powerboats but I think that its a little bit of overkill to try and work all those functions into a truck. So my ongoing assumption is that both my batteries are good and my voltage needle works. If one of the batteries croaks, I'll figure that out easy enough via the needle. If the needle croaks...oh well, it gives me something to do chasing trouble. So my primary goal and the driving factor in picking the Painless system was restricted to in-cab switching.

In my install thread referred to by Romer above, you'll see what the three switch positions are intended to accomplish if installed per the directions. To ensure that my family would not run the battery down at the beach this summer when I wasn't around, I decided to swap the wiring around so that the yellow top could be switched into a dedicated/solo mode for driving the winch or powering the truck with the key in the ACC position. (Painless' wiring instructions only bring the aux battery into the circuit along with the other battery, not in just by itself.) My thinking was that if they ran the yellow down, they could just switch back to the red, start the truck and come home.

After riding around Texas today in a car and thinking about it, I am still not sure that's the best setup.

Regarding Romer's questions:

Originally Posted by Romer

Painless:
Do you normally drive with switch in combine to charge both batteries, or do you isolate them to prevent something from draining both batteries while you are driving like a bad alternator?

I normally drive around in the middle position, ignoring the deep cycle aux battery. Eventually this will allow the battery to drain, so every two weeks I flip the switch for a few hours to bring it into the recharge circuit.

Originally Posted by Romer

Is there another way to see you have a bad alt before the voltage stops to drop (see on gauge)?

No.

Originally Posted by Romer

How long would a fully charged battery be OK if isolated from the charging circuit.

I have left the yellow top out of the circuit for as long as a month and it is fine. That's my only experience with timeframe.