Tools R Us is a BAD DUDE!

[Rainy Day FZJ]

Any measurement on a stock fan distance to rad?, then subtract the 3/4 inch of the spacer on the wp and compare it to the measurement on the ringed fan. 1 5/8 for the 2 core.
I geuss what I am looking for is the measurement of the difference in the sc fan and the oem. Don't forget to include the spacer in there if that was not accounted for.
The ringed fan I don't think flexes as much as the OEM style due to the supporting ring that ties the ends toether.

[landtank]

I obviously have no solutions here but am just brainstorming.

If you look at the shape of the fan it appears that the tip is a trianglar shape. I beleive this is to help reduce terbulence behind the blade so the following blade has something to move. So I'd not want to trim the blade if possible.

Dan mentioned needing a stiffer blade and from looking at the fan it seems that the blades are easier flexed in a rotating fashion which brings the tip closer to the rad.

So how about tethering the tip of the blade to the heel of the blade in front of it, anchoring the tip so it can't rotate. One possible method might be to drill a hole at each end and insert a bicycle spoke through the heel and then attach the nut through the tip onto the spoke. You could adjust it to fit and Locktite it in place for security.

Again just brainstorming in hopes to spark a good idea.

[cruiserdan]

Or perhaps safety wire. My concern with that would be the tip of a blade failing and then having whatever the strut material is start whipping around in there like a 200+ HP weed-eater

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Landpimp

I know this is agaist convential wisdom but.

I have installed 2 180deg OEM t-stats in 2F motors.......in both case the temps droped 10+ degs, this is measured with a Raytech in numerous spots. Both rigs had FULLY new cooling systems and new OEM 190(or whatever they are) t-stats. ALL I did was change to the 180 stat and the REAL temps droped by the same amount. Also the guage needs lower, not like I trust that.

I KNOW this is not how its suppose to work......but it has worked for me on 2 cruisers. I also was not trying to cure an overheating issue, i just wanted to run at a bit lower temps.

Just tossing it out there for ya all.

John

Not good to run a FI motor cooler than it's supposed to run. i would not install a 180 deg t-stat in a FI motor designed for a 195.

Any thoughts to a well shrouded electric?

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Tools R Us

Phil's rig has a TRD 170 degree? stat in good working condition.

A 160 actually.

[Scamper]

Wow...just found this thread. Lots of posts in short order.

As far as fan flex goes with the ringed vs stock fan, my guess would be that the ring simply holds the fan tips from moving in, thus a simple wiring of them together will not work--you need the stiffness of the ring to hold them out. A metal fan (which would not flex as much) might work better, but I'd want to see test data on this before risking my own radiator.

But I have to ask this, having read all these posts in short order here: Dan's original premise was that the ringed fan without shoud would generate a vortex leading to lower air flow (paraphrased, but I think I got it down right). This observation was based--if I understand it correctly--on the basis of the feel of air flow behind the fan at idle? One might argue that at idel the damming effect of the air agains the engine block might make it feel this way, but there still might be aire flowing more than one thinks. Has anyone actually looked at air flow at idle using a smoke generator or something that would give you a visual assessment of flow? I don't mean to disparage any of the ideas before this, but if all this discussion is based on this assumption, one might be served by making sure the assumption is correct...

Personally, I'd love to find that there's an easy fix/insurance for potential overhating. Does everyone really believe that TRD shortcutted this testing and doesn't understand the airflow on the modified fan/shroud? Just asking...

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Gumby

Not good to run a FI motor cooler than it's supposed to run. i would not install a 180 deg t-stat in a FI motor designed for a 195.

Any thoughts to a well shrouded electric?

I'm also running the 160 Gum. I do not dispute your statement but could you please clarify the reasoning behind running at that temp. Also, if the stock stat "opens" at 190 what would you think it should "run at"? IE 195, 200, 205 ?


D-

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Scamper

But I have to ask this, having read all these posts in short order here: Dan's original premise was that the ringed fan without shoud would generate a vortex leading to lower air flow (paraphrased, but I think I got it down right). This observation was based--if I understand it correctly--on the basis of the feel of air flow behind the fan at idle?

Actually at idle, 1,500 rpm, 2,000 rpm and at 2,500 rpm.

[Scamper]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

Actually at idle, 1,500 rpm, 2,000 rpm and at 2,500 rpm.

Yes, but nonetheless, a fan blowing at a fixed wall (i.e., the block) will tend to stall the aiflow. It's not quite the same as driving at those same revs. I'd still be interested in seeing the air moving as opposed to just feeling it. Call me cautious (I work in drug development where the placebo effect is well known...)

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by Rainy Day FZJ

I would think in slee's case that the BL makes the fan hit more freq. Of coarse his has hit twice now and should think about removing more

Incorrect spacing of the radiator after the body lift caused the fan blade to hit the bottom of the shroud and wedge between the shroud and radiator. It actually landed on the to of the core where it meets the plastic tank. The first time it happened was on a sewere jerk and I could understand why it happened. The 2nd time, it happened was after a little drop in Moab. This was after I lowered the radiator even more.

While in Moab, we replaced the radiator, threw the shroud in the trash and trimmed the fan. It has not hit again.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

I'm also running the 160 Gum. I do not dispute your statement but could you please clarify the reasoning behind running at that temp. Also, if the stock stat "opens" at 190 what would you think it should "run at"? IE 195, 200, 205 ?


D-

I have had not a few engineers tell me the enigne is much happier at the temps it was designed for. In the case of the 1FZ-FE 195+. the engine will heat up faster to operating temp and stay there irregardless of driving conditions. tolerances will stay consistant. oil will flow at a consistant rate. fuel metering will be consistant.

look at it this way. Your coolant temp drops to 165 after a trip down the highway on a cool day. Your ECM enriches your fuel a little more at 165. Your engine really does not need the enriching, but it's programming says that it is not up to temps yet. It can't know that it is. it dumps more fuel. O2 might pull it back unless the programming says that closed loop does not occur until ECT is 190+. More fuel is not better than the right amount of fuel. It's way better than not enough, but not better than the right amount. You get carbon build up, ring wash out, oil thinning, poor fuel mileage and poor emissions.

A carb didn't know or care what the ECT was. It's vital to FI. it's also vital to FI that it gets the information it expects. Garbage in, garbage out.

[cruiserdan]

'K

195+.........+ how much before you get nervous?

[LandCruiserPhil]

Originally Posted by Scamper

Yes, but nonetheless, a fan blowing at a fixed wall (i.e., the block) will tend to stall the aiflow. It's not quite the same as driving at those same revs. I'd still be interested in seeing the air moving as opposed to just feeling it. Call me cautious (I work in drug development where the placebo effect is well known...)

Flow was also noted using the Kleenex test at the front of the radiator

When traveling at freeway speed, temp around 200 degrees all you need to do is put it net let it coast and you can watch the water temp drop. Also the temp does not drop as quickly when descending a hill using the trans as a brake verses ideal. Even coming down a long hill in the summer it will drop below normal operating temp if running at low rpm.
I could understand how it runs warm at an ideal with low airflow due to a POS fan. But with a top notch cooling system and an excellent running engine with zero back pressure how could it run warm at highway speeds. When Tools came up with the theory of the SC fan blocking the flow I thought he could be right. The more I play the more I'm convinced he is right.

[cruiserdan]

I am convinced he is right and if I can get a hall pass tonite, I'm "goin' in" NOW...

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

'K

195+.........+ how much before you get nervous?

220-225

many factory electric cooling fans don't even turn on until 220.

[cruiserdan]

OK, thanks.

We know that the A/C konks out at 226 so that is getting warm and will not come back on til it drops to 217. So, can we then postulate that the 1FZ should run 195 to, say, 215 then?

[Cattledog]

Anyone in the NH/MA seacoast area with a supercharger and ringed fan? My lx is stock with a new blue FC. I have access to an air flow meter used for lab hoods. I would be happy to get some quantifiable data. I would love a ride in a supercharged rig too.

[Photoman]

It is also easy to make or have made custom shrouds. The spacer is also an easy mod as it is made from aluminum.
My mouth dropped opened when I saw a friend brake stand my cruiser and I saw how much the motor moved. I'm thinking of welding a piece of chain on the motor mounts to limit the movement when I make my new shroud.
Also, I did not see it mentioned, but there has to be an allowance in the fan to radiator distance if you ever happen to get the fan in water. It will suck the fan into the rad like the screws on Dan's ship.
Pic of FJZ80 shrouds and modded fan spacers.

Bill

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Photoman

My mouth dropped opened when I saw a friend brake stand my cruiser and I saw how much the motor moved. I'm thinking of welding a piece of chain on the motor mounts to limit the movement when I make my new shroud.


Bill

Got good motor mounts?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

OK, thanks.

We know that the A/C konks out at 226 so that is getting warm and will not come back on til it drops to 217. So, can we then postulate that the 1FZ should run 195 to, say, 215 then?

Sounds about right. i wish we had someone with Toyota connections. Maybe a guy who worked at a dealer that could get in touch with the Toyota tech center.

[drexx]

12Aug2005 (UTC +8)

For what it's worth, my Arab-spec 1995 FZJ-80 (1FZ-FE and A442F) has a 4-core steel radiator, and with obviously more (25% ?) cooling fins than my general-country spec'ed HZJ-80. I'm not so sure yet if it's a Toyota part though. But other differences include a larger a/c compressor and three condenser/blower sets (front, rear aircon and console fridge).

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Gumby

i wish we had someone with Toyota connections. Maybe a guy who worked at a dealer that could get in touch with the Toyota tech center.

No shit!

[powderpig]

Drexx, I find it had to believe that the radiator is steel. Even stainless steel. This metal is not great to be used as a radiator(think oxidation big time, loss of efficency real quick, low heat disapation, are some of the quick thought on this metal). I could see a 4 row radiator that would be sweet. later robbie

[Gumby]

I was just doing some research for a ppt presentation for the new auto curriculum and found a chart concerning running too cool.

In a 60 hour engine test:

[cruiserdan]

Very interesting Todd.

As I mentioned earlier I run a 160. When I'm moving it is usually above 180 but can dip below that on coasting descents and stay there for a bit. If my fan blade experiments pan out I think that I will go back to the stock 190 stat. Fuel consumption is not an issue for me but cylinder wall wear is.
Our other current thread referencing aux temp gauges has some other interesting observations. If I read some of the data points correctly it appears that a truck running a 160 is going to be popping in and out of "closed-loop" when it is at the operating temperature range established by the 160 'stat. That can't be much of a help.


D-

[Rainy Day FZJ]

I have a 2 core AL radiatior and within a few days will have a 3 core brass. I took the OEM fan and trimmed it rather aggressively, the tips are more cut back that slee's description. I will put the OEM on and the old AL will be the sacraficial lamb. With the AL one tested the next step will be a well educated guesstimate for the brass one. I think that if I run the fan without the shroud and with a strobe timing lite I should be able to see how close it compares to the ringed fan.
3/4 of an inch were trimmed from the OEM fan. Imagine looking at the front of the blade at the center where the blades attach being zero point and 3/4 of an inch at the tips that hook tward the radiator. Kinda hard to explain and immagine it. I took Slee's cutting more aggresively.

Had another thought, how thick does the W/P spacer really need to be? There might be able to gain 1/4 of an inch of space with less spacer. Does any one know?