no oil pressure... fml

UWdave · 10-17-09, 11:51 AM

Made it 70 miles from home towards a weekend of camping, wheeling, and beer. Just made it over the pass and oil pressure dropped and engine shut off.

Started right back up with no CEL. Low pressure and noisy valve train. Oil level fine. Engine never got hot. No leaks.

Checked the crank bolt. Only had large cresent to fit. Seemed tight.

Luckily made it to rest stop. Waiting on to truck now. F my life.

Cruiserdrew · 10-17-09, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UWdave

Made it 70 miles from home towards a weekend of camping, wheeling, and beer. Just made it over the pass and oil pressure dropped and engine shut off.

Started right back up with no CEL. Low pressure and noisy valve train. Oil level fine. Engine never got hot. No leaks.

Checked the crank bolt. Only had large cresent to fit. Seemed tight.

Luckily made it to rest stop. Waiting on to truck now. F my life.

F is right.

Just saw this: http://forum.ih8mud.com/sale-parts/3...30k-miles.html

retrofive · 10-17-09, 12:42 PM

Bump

No clue here, but what would cause a failure like that?

UWdave · 10-17-09, 02:22 PM

Well, we made it home. I have to say, Craig's List saved me a ton. Everybody wanted $325 to $400. Found a guy with a small single truck company who did it for $260.

So, my plan of action:
1) Change oil and check filter to see if it is plugged. I changed oil once since owning it. 3months, 800miles ago.
2) Check the crank bolt better. Don't even know if I have sockets big enough. Maybe need some new tools.

3) Test oil flow by pulling cooler line? Take apart pump?

retrofive · 10-17-09, 02:28 PM

Glad your home safe. Keep us posted on what you find.

torslinning · 10-17-09, 09:32 PM

I agree with checking flow, that would aliminate the pump, but if there's no flow the engine would sound REALLY harsh in the valvetrain.

I would try to manually chek oil pressure to verify that it's low. Make sure that you check it when the engine is hot, and check through all rpm ranges. It should vary from 7psi at idle to 70psi at rev.

If the pressure is low, I would use some heet to clean out the crank, and refill with 10w30 oil and re-check.

Let us know how it goes... I'll have your snorkel ready by Tuesday.

UWdave · 10-25-09, 03:10 PM

So, I'm back home for 2 days and had a little time to look at the cruiser.

1) I checked the crank bolt. My 2nd biggest socket managed to fit fairly well (1-3/16). I could only get about ~100 ft/lbs on the bolt and it didn't budge. All I had was a strap wrench to hold pulley. I'm assuming when people said the crank bolt was loose, it was real loose. Also, power steering still works so I doubt this is my problem.

2) Removed oil filter. Bypass looked to be in good order. Replaced w/ OEM small japan filter.

3) Ran motor for 30 seconds. Still no pressure. I removed the filter and it was still dry. So this confirms in my mind I have no pressure and no flow.

So here's my list of possible problems, in order of ease to fix/check
1) Oil pickup loose/broken
2) Oil pump toast

Could a broken oil pressure relief valve cause this problem? Looking at the FSM, this is meant to prevent overpressure during high rpm. THis could be my new #1 above. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, why did Dr T decide a good place for an oil cooler is between the block and exhaust header?

Cruiserdrew · 10-25-09, 03:43 PM

I hate to say this, but what ever is wrong is fatal. You need a new motor no matter how you slice it and I would devote my energy into locating one and away from this one.

You are going to have to pull it out of the truck anyway and it will be much easier to diagnose on an engine stand.

UWdave · 10-25-09, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I hate to say this, but what ever is wrong is fatal. You need a new motor no matter how you slice it and I would devote my energy into locating one and away from this one.

You are going to have to pull it out of the truck anyway and it will be much easier to diagnose on an engine stand.

Not what I wanted to hear.

Is it time to start researching Diesels?

Brian894X4 · 10-25-09, 05:04 PM

Don’t dispare just yet. Your engine isn’t fatally destroyed, until it’s been confirmed destroyed and we aren’t anywhere near there yet. There’s plenty of things to check, before we declare your bearings toast and the reason for zero pressure.

When the engine ran for 30 seconds, was it noisey at all. If you had zero oil pressure or zero flow, the valve train would rattle like mad immediately, especially after sitting for more than a few hours and oil has had time to flow away from the valves, gears and chain, back into the sump. If the engine sounded relatively normal, you have at least some oil pressure and flow.

I would never rely on the factory oil pressure gauge. It’s a piece of garbage. You need to put on a real mechanical gauge to see what’s really going on.

It's possible that something got plugged near the oil filter, guage line. There is a bypass, as I understand it, so oil will still flow, but not necessarily show on the gauge or fill the oil filter. I would definately pull lower steel sheet pan and look at the pick up tube. I can't imagine it being broken, but plugged yes. If anything fell into the pan, including gasket material, it could have plugged the pick up.

I would check things in the following order….

Real mechanical gauge with the engine running. If no pressure and engine is rattling really bad, remove oil pan and check pick up tube for obstruction or coming loose. Pick up tube may still be attached, but loose, which not allow it to suck up any oil. If pick up tube is OK, then tear into the oil pump.

Just to give an example about not giving up or thinking the worst right away...I almost literally threw away a Honda CRX one time, when I thought I broke a belt and bent a bunch of valves due to the engine free spinning with the starter. Long story short, fuel had washed away oil ring seals, when I tried to start it with a bad distributor and after a few drops of oil into each cylinder, it started and ran fine. Car had sat for 6 months after I thought it was ruined as I figuring out who to call to tow it away and get rid of it.

Moral of the story is, don't make any hasty decisions until you know for sure what happened and what the problem and damage is. Check the obvious things first, starting from easiest to hardest.

UWdave · 10-25-09, 05:30 PM

No smoke.

No coolant in the engine.

Valves are noisy as heck but the engine still starts and idles.

Cruiserdrew · 10-25-09, 05:50 PM

If you want to try diagnosing it, you could drop the oil pans and check the bearings.

Something very strange and bad has to be causing no oil flow, which is confirmed by a dry filter and no pressure on the gage. Even though the PS pump is gear driven, I think the gear that drives it is clamped to the crank by pressure on the main nut-the 300 foot pound one. That a s a problem is not yet ruled out in my book.

Are you close to Robbie or Slee-you could pay them an hour of shop time to diagnose before you looked for a used motor.

Brian894X4 · 10-25-09, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UWdave

No smoke.

No coolant in the engine.

Valves are noisy as heck but the engine still starts and idles.

So now maybe, pull the pan and check the bearings (as CruiserDrew mentioned) and also the pick up tube. I've never pulled the pan on a 1FZ, but it should be relatively easy since it's a two piece unit and the part you need to pull off is smaller than most other pans.

Draining the oil might also give you an indicator to any castrophic damage, i.e. metal bits in the pan or oil.

Be sure to make sure the pick up tube is not loose. Let's hope that's the cause as that's an easy fix.

If you have the means, you could trying to break loose the pulley bolt and retorque it. If the problem is in that area, I'd lean towards it being an issue with the key or splines of the oil pump, which means you'll have dig into the pump.

Going from easiest to hardest, I would probably....

a) figure out a way to torque the crank bolt more than you have

b) pull the oil pan and check the bearings and pick up tube

c) pull the pulley and dig into the oil pump

By the way, how many miles and has the engine ever been apart in the lower end? Has the crank bolt ever been removed?

UWdave · 10-25-09, 07:57 PM

181k.

180k were with the PO.

UWdave · 10-30-09, 08:53 AM

So I'm flying home from NY tonight with grand wrenching plans this weekend.

Plan:
-drain oil and look for metal goodies
-pull oil pans
-inspect oil pickup
-inspect crank bearing?
-inspect high pressure oil bypass

HELP NEEDED:

BEARING - I know of Chevy 350, bearing has outlet that must align with block. Is our motor the same? (FJZ) How do I inspect?

BYPASS - FSM doesn't say much about this. What should I look for? Broken spring? Stuck valve?

On crazy troubleshooting ideas:
I haven't thought about this too much. Please advise. What do you guys think about running a tube from the pickup to a bucket of oil. (pan off) Have a friend start the motor and see if oil goes/comes out anywhere.
- if it doesn't suck any oil, pump or pickup problem
- if spits out oil by pump, bypass problem?
- if it spits out oil by bearing, bearing problem?

cruiserdan · 10-30-09, 09:24 AM

[ assumes oil level in pan is full ]

You might try this for fun: Pull the ignition fuse or EFI fuse (to prevent the engine from starting). Remove the oil filter. Crank the engine over and see if any oil comes out of the oil filter mounting boss. If it doesn't you might as well pull the motor now and get it over with.

jlg32281 · 10-30-09, 09:37 AM

I'm with Cdan. If the vavle train is already noisy, you need to start looking for a new engine.

UWdave · 10-30-09, 12:51 PM

I have more time than money right now. So i'm not giving up on the motor yet.

The valves don't sound harsh. Sounds like right when you start the motor and no oil up top yet.

Why such the doom-and-gloom prognosis? Besided what I've listed, what so fatal could prevent oil from getting to oil filter? Nothing about this seems catastrophic to me.

No leaks, no smoke, still idles.

I'll get the pan off sunday and see what I find.

RedTacoma · 10-30-09, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UWdave

I have more time than money right now. So i'm not giving up on the motor yet.

The valves don't sound harsh. Sounds like right when you start the motor and no oil up top yet.

Why such the doom-and-gloom prognosis? Besided what I've listed, what so fatal could prevent oil from getting to oil filter? Nothing about this seems catastrophic to me.

No leaks, no smoke, still idles.

I'll get the pan off sunday and see what I find.

You may want to try something. Make sure bolts/nuts on the oil pan next to the oil pump are tightened. Also make sure screws on oil pump cover are tight.
EDIT: Just in case you have big enough oil leak that allows pump to suck air

Snowtire · 10-30-09, 01:19 PM

Here's my vote for looking inside first. It take some real effort to kill a Toyota motor. You might have done it, but then again you might not have.

jlg32281 · 10-30-09, 03:50 PM

The doom and gloom is because you ran without oil pressure. It doesn't take long at all to destroy valves or spin the bearings. I'm not against diagnosing it, but I've had bad experiences with engines and no oil. I burned one up from running it less than 3 minutes without pressure.

Sc0- · 11-01-09, 03:49 PM

Bump, have a diagnoses? I am in the middle of an engine build and wouldn't mind a few hints or tips to watch out for when reassembling...

UWdave · 11-01-09, 05:02 PM

http://www.facebook.com/v/1243140688230

Facebook videos don't seem to embed on mud.

I'm no professional mechanic, but this doesn't seem right.

retrofive · 11-01-09, 05:09 PM

.... very cryptic.

UWdave · 11-01-09, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retrofive

.... very cryptic.

Search for the "http://www. " part. That's where the good stuff is.

Please let me know if the new link works. Anybody else have advise on facebook video links?

retrofive · 11-01-09, 05:20 PM

http://www.facebook.com/v/1243140688230

Sc0- · 11-01-09, 06:27 PM

CRAP!!!! Maybe the damage was restricted to the top end only?

UWdave · 11-01-09, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sc0-

CRAP!!!! Maybe the damage was restricted to the top end only?

Top end?

Did you see the video? That gear that is wiggling around is the oil pump.

Cruiserdrew · 11-01-09, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sc0-

CRAP!!!! Maybe the damage was restricted to the top end only?

Seems unlikely. the motor was run with no oil pressure. So what actually failed?

Thanks for posting follow up. Once you figure out what broke, please post it up.

Dang.

cruiserdan · 11-01-09, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UWdave

Top end?

Did you see the video? That gear that is wiggling around is the oil pump.

The oil pump is inside the timing cover. That is the gear that drives the oil pump and power steering pump. That is the gear that rides in the "un-obtainium" bushing in the block.

That motor is probably toast.