Engine Woes - Rod Bearings?

Snowtire · 10-15-09, 05:30 AM

I think the hardening is thick enough that it surface grinding will leave it intact. Normal crank grinding is not followed by hardening.

Any update on your work? I am looking forward to seeing pictures.

AJP · 10-15-09, 07:35 AM

Quote:

I think the hardening is thick enough that it surface grinding will leave it intact

probably as it is likely induction hardened but it depends on the process and how much is taken off ... nitrided and tuftrided surfaces usually should be rehardened

Quote:

Normal crank grinding is not followed by hardening

that is very likely the case - not necessarily right though - again it depends on the original treatment, the depth removed during resurfacing and what the owner expects after R&R

In any event .. I think the initial intent is to see what can be done with the crank in the block ...eg polishing

hsiaoer · 10-19-09, 01:35 PM

No real update yet. I've been in Moab all weekend in a Sienna (I saw about 8 land cruisers and cried a little every time). I have been reading up on my crank polishing. I have the bearings, a #3 set and a #4 set. I will be polishing with 320 grit to get everything smooth and in spec going in the unfavorable direction. From what I read, if I'm underneath looking up at the front of the crank, unfavorable is counterclockwise. Then I'm going to go back with 2000 grit wet/dry soaked in 3 in 1 oil and polish in the favorable direction. When I'm done I'll take measurements and see if I took off enough to warrant the #4 bearings. I'll vacuum everything out as best I can, and double check my measurements with plastigauge. This should all be taking place in the next day or two.

Questions: What type of lube should I use for reassembly?

AJP · 10-19-09, 02:55 PM

lubriplate (apparently now designated "105") was the preferred assy lube.

I have also used STP ... but not sure how wise that was.

jlg32281 · 10-19-09, 03:21 PM

I've used Valvoline, Amsoil, Costal, etc. I don't think it makes a big difference on brand since it is washed away so quickly. Just be generous with whatever lube you use.

hsiaoer · 10-20-09, 12:03 AM

Hahaha, well, y'all were right, I am screwed. According to the 721, which probably isn't the best device for checking round in the first place, I have a very egg shaped journal. It measures 56.26mm from top to bottom and 56.80 from side to side. Slight balloon to the right side as well. Spec is 57.00mm all around. I pulled a couple other bearings to check, and they all check out.

I'll probably attempt pulling everything from the bottom just for the heck of it. SBFJ if you were serious about helping out with a rebuild, PM me. Shoot, if anyone with rebuild experience wants to make some money on the side in SLC, PM me.

In the meantime I will find a way to get the crankshaft pulley off and try not to lose any bolts...

It looks like the smallest the journal can be is 56.98. Is welding up and regrinding an accepted repair? Or am I looking for a completely new crank?

HarleyHetz · 10-20-09, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

I'll probably attempt pulling everything from the bottom just for the heck of it.

Remember, you have the flywheel bolted to the back side of the crankshaft. You will have to remove your transmission to get to these bolts...I think I'd pull the motor from the top if it were me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

It looks like the smallest the journal can be is 56.98. Is welding up and regrinding an accepted repair? Or am I looking for a completely new crank?

I think I'd shop around the junk yards and see if you can find a used one that is not in bad shape first, then, if not, go with new...a "GOOD" machine shop should be able to weld up your old one and regrind it...but not a "fair" one...maybe someone in your area will recommend someone to you, I wouldn't try it without talking to someone who has used them though. I've only been in this end of the country for a couple of years, so I won't be much help there...best of luck, and sorry to hear it turned out this way...if it helps, we are pulling for you!!

Snowtire · 10-20-09, 05:30 AM

I am going back to my old post above on this one. I really think you will have an easier time swapping in a used motor. But hey, if you really want to do this, we will support you.

Dave 2000 · 10-20-09, 08:52 AM

I think you are showing you have the skills to pull this motor. IMHO I would pull it and turn it over and pull the crank leaving all the rods pushed up towarss the valves (carefully). Get the crank reground with new main/rod bearings and refit it. How much is a grind and a set of shells where you are?

You know the rest of the engine is ok, how will you know if you get one from a junk yard that it will not expire in six months with BEB failure again?

regards

Dave

SBFJ60FIG · 10-20-09, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

Hahaha, well, y'all were right, I am screwed. According to the 721, which probably isn't the best device for checking round in the first place, I have a very egg shaped journal. It measures 56.26mm from top to bottom and 56.80 from side to side. Slight balloon to the right side as well. Spec is 57.00mm all around. I pulled a couple other bearings to check, and they all check out.

I'll probably attempt pulling everything from the bottom just for the heck of it. SBFJ if you were serious about helping out with a rebuild, PM me. Shoot, if anyone with rebuild experience wants to make some money on the side in SLC, PM me.

In the meantime I will find a way to get the crankshaft pulley off and try not to lose any bolts...

It looks like the smallest the journal can be is 56.98. Is welding up and regrinding an accepted repair? Or am I looking for a completely new crank?

I'm always serious brother! However, it really is not at all viable for me to help. However, with what you've done already in your career of car repairs, I really really feel this is within your ability. Just go slowly and read all you can before getting in over your head.

You can really surprise yourself with what you can do, and it's a wonderful feeling! At the very worst your machine shop might say the crankshaft is junk and then you gotta go the used motor route, or a new short block.

Word to the wise...you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET THE CRANK PULLEY OFF NOW! Just leave it on and keep going if you're going to do a rebuild. I would contact a machine shop and see what they have to say given the circumstances of the crankshaft before you really get too deep into it, a good idea to have a clue as to what direction it might go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave 2000

I think you are showing you have the skills to pull this motor. IMHO I would pull it and turn it over and pull the crank leaving all the rods pushed up towarss the valves (carefully). Get the crank reground with new main/rod bearings and refit it. How much is a grind and a set of shells where you are?

Dave

I agree with Dave that you can get it done...I disagree with Dave in that just grinding the crank is the route to do...you could save some $$ by not pulling the head and re-ringing the motor, but you're almost there. So go all the way, re-ring, hone, all new gaskets, maybe a new oil pump (frankly I almost never replace oil pumps, just check them and roll with it, but that's just me).

I sure the block is fine, and rings probably good, but to have a nice clean motor, no oil leaks, fresh paint, everything new, is a really pretty sight, and you will then have years of trouble-free service from the new power plant.

DO IT...make us proud, shit make your wife proud!

As I've recently learned from Bob the Builder:

Can we fix it?

Yes we can!

blzrfn · 10-20-09, 10:57 AM

I think with all of the blown 1FZs due to HG failure a used crank would be a pretty easy thing to find.

hsiaoer · 10-20-09, 11:40 AM

I posted in Classified, we'll see what comes up. It sounds like I'll need an engine jack and pull it all out to get at it then huh? Arg... I was just getting to know her too...

SBFJ60FIG · 10-20-09, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

I posted in Classified, we'll see what comes up. It sounds like I'll need an engine jack and pull it all out to get at it then huh? Arg... I was just getting to know her too...

If what you're asking is can you pull the crank with the motor still in the chassis...I'm sure you could if you're creative enough. But by that time you will have done everything you need to pull the motor anyway.

So...said another way, that would be foolish, and asking for trouble. Bite the bullet, pull the motor...don't buy a used crank either unless you really really trust the person and they give you a money back guarantee.

And yes, you WILL need an engine hoist.

And you WILL need an engine stand of this type. The traditional engine stand will not support this motor safely.

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

It does not have to be this particular stand, Summit's is good too, but you need this shape of a base (that is wide, and four wheels) to safely hold this engine.

Summit's:

Performance Tool W41031 - Performance Tool Engine Stands - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Just find one with this basic shape...and I'm sure you can rent an engine hoist from somewhere...they are cheap though, but you really don't need them very often...they just get you into trouble...like pulling engines when you don't need to because you're bored (this has not happened to me in a LONG time, but it has).

Do man...we are all pulling for you to get it done! And I'm sure your crankshaft can be ground and made like-new. Find a good engine builder in your area and call them!

AJP · 10-20-09, 03:00 PM

That's too bad. A good '80 is worth investing something to keep one working for you. BUT there limits before it becomes worth looking for another.

You will pull the block if you are going to repair that engine ... the slippery slope is that once the block is out ... you may as well consider rings, valves, pistons? rods? wrist pins? timing chain maybe gears etc etc ... yadayada.

Labour time and parts cost (and the inevitable shortage of SST tools/gauges) it maybe better to look at a factory short block which has been assembled in appropriate environment with tools/gauges that are appropriate to the application OR a lower mileage long block from a salvage yard.

In short - whats the rest of the vehicle like -- and what's the "business case" ... forgetting the emotional side for a little bit (course most vehicles are emotional objects!!) I don't know what I would do ....

SBFJ60FIG · 10-20-09, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJP

You will pull the block if you are going to repair that engine ... the slippery slope is that once the block is out ... you may as well consider rings, valves, pistons? rods? wrist pins? timing chain maybe gears etc etc ... yadayada.

Labour time and parts cost (and the inevitable shortage of SST tools/gauges) it maybe better to look at a factory short block which has been assembled in appropriate environment with tools/gauges that are appropriate to the application OR a lower mileage long block from a salvage yard.

As a guy who has built 1FZ motors, and many other car engines, you WILL NOT need pistons. Very unlikely that any conn rods will need to be replaced either.

I don't recall the miles on this engine, but these they do not eat T-chains like a 22R(RE) does. So I'd bet the chain, sliders, tensioner are all fine too.

All you'll need is a crank grind (maybe a polish only??) new rings, check the oil pump, tank the block (to clean it), hone it, hone the conn rods, new bearings, maybe some head bolts, gaskets and put er together. Yeah, it will be more than $500, but it will also be a lot less than a short block.

NOW DO IT!

And stop naysaying all you all!

Rkroelin · 10-20-09, 04:35 PM

This thread is generating an unusual amount of temptation to dive into my own truck. Reseal or rebuild?

So I don't hi-jack this thread too badly, here is my own:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-te...l-rebuild.html

Keep us posted hsiaoer.

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 10:20 AM

Update:

I found a used motor out of a 97 that was rear ended. He is delivering this weekend. I'm getting the engine and tranny for $900. Is that a good price? I ran him through the interview process and he sounds pretty religious about maintenance.

Any advice on swapping? I think doing the engine/tranny combo is the easiest. Pull the radiator... disconnect everything... Pull it out... Set it gently on a tire...Bolt up the new one... Position in place and reverse.

What is the best engine puller/lift to get for this application? The ones suggested previously don't look like they have much up and down movement.

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 12:22 PM

Would this work for this application?

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Snowtire · 10-29-09, 12:29 PM

Sounds like a good deal to me.

The poor guy way of doing this is to:

1) remove the hood
2) build an a-frame from 4x4 lumber, with the top of the A being a 4x6 or 4x8
3) hang a borrowed chain hoist from the top of the A
4) disconnect motor stuff
5) take weight off motor mounts with the chain hoist
6) place old carpet or skateboard under the motor
7) lower motor onto carpet or skateboard
8) jack up truck and slide the motor out
9) reverse steps to put new one in

Of course, this works much better with magnesium engine cases and air cooled cylinders and heads (ie VWs and Porsches), but I have also done it with iron blocks. Lucky I am still alive, but it does work.

Snowtire · 10-29-09, 12:31 PM

Oh, and BTW, I am glad you are swapping in a motor built by the Japanese guys at the factory. That's personal preference though.

That said, it might be worth doing the head gasket while it's sitting on your garage floor.

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 01:12 PM

Whoa, I don't trust my A-Framing skills that much! I can get a used engine hoist for like $150, and I figure I'll find other uses for it later on...

I'm glad I'm swapping motors too, it somehow seems like less work and less risk. I would do the HG but the previous owners says it has never leaked, burns very little oil, and he's run mobil 1 synthetic every 5000 miles with the big oil filter.

Will I need anything special for the tranny? I figured I could just use my regular jack on it, but do I need to get an adapter or anything? I think I have a skateboard lying around, will that really work? I'm not quite following all your ups and downs. But I guess I'll figure that out when I get there.

SBFJ60FIG · 10-29-09, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowtire

Oh, and BTW, I am glad you are swapping in a motor built by the Japanese guys at the factory.

I do not get this racist logic? Are Japanese people the only ones capable of building a good engine?

IMO, this seem like fool's logic...not that I'm trying to pick a fight here, but as a guy who has built many engines, and maintained long relationships with the vehicles that received the fruits of my labor, my work holds up just fine. One rebuild of mine is going ten+years ago and is still running strong.

Alas, to each his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

Would this work for this application?

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Yeah...but why not this?

http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/pts/1438586649.html

Hell I'd email him the link from Harbor Freight and as it its the same one...then show up with $100 and see what happens. But I'm shady like that!

Looks like the same one to me...and everyone is firm until you show up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

Will I need anything special for the tranny? I figured I could just use my regular jack on it, but do I need to get an adapter or anything? I think I have a skateboard lying around, will that really work? I'm not quite following all your ups and downs. But I guess I'll figure that out when I get there.

Nope...nothing special needed. You would be wise to pull the hood off. And then you can hang the trans with a 2x4 across the fenders and a couple old hangers or just use a plain Jane floor jack to support the trans and x-fer.

And BTW, I might be interested in your old motor if I end up coming out to the SLC area this winter to snowmobile. That would make it oh so easy to pick er up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowtire

The poor guy way of doing this is...

Lucky I am still alive, but it does work.

Woof...lucky is the key word here...that is f-ing crazy talk! I'm a cheap son-of-bitch, but I would NEVER sacrifice my safety for the possibility of a very painful and life-altering accident. That is just too much.

And from a guy who has first-hand experience with this engine...though not 3FE heavy, IT IS A HEAVY, LONG MOTOR. You need the right engine stand, and a decent cherry picker....of which HSIAOER, that latter you have found!

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 02:05 PM

I think he was referring to a post above of a new short block being the best solution. I don't think(hope) he was being racist. The real irony would be if SBFJ is Japanese, or is the irony that I'm Chinese and don't trust my own rebuilding prowess? Either way SBFJ, as previously mentioned, you have full rights to work on my 80 anytime you want. I'll have it sitting in my shed with a tarp over it with your name on it.

SBFJ60FIG · 10-29-09, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hsiaoer

I think he was referring to a post above of a new short block being the best solution. I don't think(hope) he was being racist. The real irony would be if SBFJ is Japanese, or is the irony that I'm Chinese and don't trust my own rebuilding prowess? Either way SBFJ, as previously mentioned, you have full rights to work on my 80 anytime you want. I'll have it sitting in my shed with a tarp over it with your name on it.

HAH...that's funny. Hummm, maybe I do have some of the island people's blood running through my veins?

And uh, yeah....I'm sure you'll have this new motor in WAY before I get there....I want the rod knocker to rebuild in my spare time! Always nice to have a fresh engine sitting around!

AJP · 10-29-09, 03:32 PM

Quote:

place old carpet or skateboard under the motor

maybe he means a Xtra HD furniture dolly... don't think I have seen a skateboard that would take the weight of the "80's block - and balancing it would be a pretty good feat.

As for lifting the body and sliding the block out .... I am pretty sure on my '80 (which comes uniquely equipped with a bloody big axle in the front ... ) it might be "tough sleddin in July"

but put me down for the pictures if you go that route...

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 03:49 PM

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what he was explaining...

From what I've gathered, its going to pull up at an agle, so you just need something to hold up the back of the tranny and be able to move forward. Then when you get it moved forward, I can just pull it up higher to miss all the axle, suspension, and cross member stuff. Granted I have more room because my oil pans are all off.

We'll see how it goes, and if I have a helper, I'll get some pics.

Snowtire · 10-29-09, 04:01 PM

Sorry for the lack of clarity in those comments. First, I meant the Japanese guy at the engine plant in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way. What I mean is, do you want an engine built in a fastidiously clean plant by lifetime employees who all do jumping jacks and Toyota cheers together every morning, or do you want to do it yourself buzzed up on Diet Coke after the kids are in bed and your wife is mad at you for not watching Grey's Anatomy with her? I want an engine built by the former guy. I would have said "little German elves" if we were talking about rebuilding a BMW motor. And while I agree that Americans can build engines (including but not limited to Toyota engines), somewhere in my gut I think I'd rather choose an engine built in Japan to drive across the Sahara over any other. That's not racist, but rather a statement about the corporate culture Japanese manufacturing companies have given to the world. But this is getting conversational.

RE: the lack of clarity in my engine swap procedure. Sorry. In this procedure, you lower the engine onto a skateboard or a piece of carpet and then slide it out from under the car. Probably not the best idea with a massive hunk like the ones in our trucks. But it works great with flat fours and sixes in German cars.

I haven't taken out my 80 motor. In some cars you can put a block of wood and a jack under the transmission to support it when you hoist out the motor. In others it is more convenient to remove the engine/tranny as a unit. Archive search will help with this.

Cruiserdrew · 10-29-09, 04:01 PM

If you take it out with the tranny attached, you will need an engine leveler and you will need to pull the radiator, tranny coolers, a/c condenser and most of the front end sheet metal. I've had a couple of 2F/tranny/tcase out in 1 block and always with everything else out of the way. THe 80 combo is even longer-you will be amazed how long it is.

I would leave the tranny in place, separate them at the flex plate and lift just the motor.

AJP · 10-29-09, 04:21 PM

Quote:

: the lack of clarity in my engine swap procedure. Sorry. In this procedure, you lower the engine onto a skateboard or a piece of carpet and then slide it out from under the car. Probably not the best idea with a massive hunk like the ones in our trucks. But it works great with flat fours and sixes in German cars.

Yes - I understood where you were going on that Snowtire .. I have seen VW/Porsche/Renault Dauphines a BMW Isetta and one NSU done this way .. eg engine dropped on a dolly .. body lifted and engine dragged out from UNDER the chassis. But the challenge with this on an '80 might be daunting ... as mentioned earlier .. there is a very large axle in way among a lot of other issues...... it would be very handy if it could be accomplished this way though!!

hsiaoer · 10-29-09, 04:47 PM

Oh, I gotcha, it comes out from UNDER the body. yeah, I double I have a jack that can get my axle over an engine...

Do you guys really think it's easier separating the two, then pulling?

I have read several thread discussing how it is easier just pulling everything connected. I'm pretty sure I have to pull the radiator either way.