[CreeperSleeper]

Originally Posted by Ebag333

And the sad part? His skid plate is prettier than mine!

Don't feel bad, Gabe... Your 80 is prettier than mine!

[FirstToy]

IPOR,
Nice improvements. How is the torsional rigidity compared to the stock crossmember? I imagine a square tube can withstand torsion better than a flat plate but that IPOR skid is so substantial, I don't imagine it flexing much.
It's a nice design and the bolts don't seem like a big deal.

Oh yeah and a good pic of that 80 stolen from Roams. Great job on Roams 4Runner SAS, really nice.

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by IPOR

Okay guys, let's try to keep it civil here..

Amen! As you implied - I should've just ignored his off subject jibes, just couldn't resist. ---Gut feeling again

Originally Posted by IPOR

.....Tom, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you're reacting to what your gut tells you. There's nothing wrong with that, sometimes our instincts are right on the mark. I think the point BK is trying to make is that with a more objective viewpoint you may find that the risk is overstated.

The simple fact is that we have had literally hundreds of these skids in use for years on some of the most hardcore 80's on the trail today without a single report of bolt failure. There are 8 bolts holding the crossmember on and you'd have to lose at least 4, all on the same side at the same time to compromise the crossmember. We have field tested this skid under severe circumstances (the example above is just one of many) with no such problems. What appears to you as a weak point has thus far proven through actual use to be a non-issue.

That doesn't mean I disagree with protecting the bolts wherever possible, but a statement like, "serious and disastrous consequences" implies that failure is likely when it is in fact NOT likely and grossly overstates the result.

You make a good point and I appreciate your input. Let's try to stick with constructive criticism and move on.

Lance, I really like the simplicity in the IPOR design. As you responded to Chad, (who BTW is the designer and fabricator of my skid) the benefits are not only appreciated by the owner, but by the manufacturer as well. And I can understand where you're coming from - a design change is an additional expense, which will have to be justified as well as absorbed, somehow. I used the extreme example of failure for a reason, not to overstate the possibility, but to suggest that the possibility would be serious and disastrous to the drive train. The point that it is NOT likely may be true, but with totally exposed bolt heads, it is still possible and people need to know that. Especially owners that are modifying their rigs to play in the rocks. I truly feel this is constructive criticism for safety's sake as well as the inconvenience of having your crossmember bolt heads damaged to the point of making it extremely difficult to extract them for maintenance purposes.

[ECruiser]

OK - time to chime in. I have been running an IPOR skidplate (as well as other armor) for about 5 years on my 80. I wheel pretty hard and have put the armor through its paces. I'm usually the only non trailed rig in the group and through the chiding of my "friends" try some pretty crazy lines. Through a combination of a lack of common sense and driving skills, I have mangled every tubular component under my truck (steering links, rear lower control arms, rear driveshaft) and have had to upgrade to 1/4" DOM for all components except the rear driveshaft which is schedule 80. I have beat the crap out of my IPOR skidplate. The powdercoat is gone and I have turtled the 6500lbs beast on the skidplate several times. It has always held up and never deformed. IMHO it is indestructible.

Now on to the bolts. Mine is an earlier version and was installed by the guys at IPOR. Thus, the hardware in the center portion is all countersunk as it was custom fit. I think the current flange protection is felt by most to be adequate and not an issue. The eight exposed bolt heads on the framerails seem to be causing grief. In my experience, this has not been a problem. I removed my skidplate two or three years ago to drop the trans pan. Removing these bolts was not a problem. The one bolt that did give me some grief was the one at the back that attaches to the support leg. It was pretty mangled and so I installed countersunk hardware on reinstall. BTW, the reinstall was a Biotch. As I had a custom fit skidplate with no slotted holes, it was difficult to line up. I even crossthreaded one of the bolts requiring drilling and tapping. The current design is more forgiving in this regard.

I just rolled under my truck to take a look. Man, that skidplate has really taken some abuse. The boltheads look fine. It has never let me down and I have turtled the 6500lbs beast on it several times. As for shear strength. those inglorious pictures earlier in this post are of my truck. That backward winch onto the skidplate was several tons of shear force. The bolts and skidplate held up without a whimper.

I can only speak from experince in using the product - It works without fail.

Incidentally, thanks to the guys at Bay to Blue Ridge Cruisers and IPOR for a very safe, efficient, and difficult three winch recovery of my vehicle. Drove it home 200 miles from that event without problem. Have pounded out the dents and fit some plexi. Ready to go wheeling. Oh, and Lance, I don't need side recovery points on my truck. The mounting arm of your sliders does just fine.

[rhyary]

So I took advantage of the free shipping and got one. It showed up on Sat and today I installed it.
All went well until I had to install the support arm.
The holes are about half a hole too short. (5mm?). Yes I know that the skid should move around but there was not play left to align the arm holes.

I don't feel like improvising, so I guess I'll give IPOR a call Monday and ask them for a solution.

I also would like to second about the hardware. It may be functional, but it is not precise.
The washers are big and installed off center as you tightening the bolts. Not to my liking. Looks cheesy.

So I am going to do what landtank did and source my own hardware. I don't get it. What is so difficult to get the right hardware into the kit?

In addition, the one bolt that holds the arm into the frame is 13mm. Give me a break, it must be the only 13mm in my car. Everything is either 12mm or 14mm.

The skid itself is a beauty so no gripes here.

[jonheld]

Originally Posted by IPOR

Jon - your skid is lower than everyone else. This is also intentional.

Hmmm...thought this might be the case. Thanks. LOL.

FWIW, I've only wheeled a few times with the belly plate and it does make a difference in clearance. Saved my bacon in New Hampshire for sure. I also worry about the bolt heads but so far it doesn't seem to be an issue. On the other hand I'm pretty used to replacing parts on my truck and a bolt head here or there means nothing to me. When they get tagged, swap them out. Pretty basic stuff. If someone was that concerned about snapping 4 bolts at a time, then spot weld it to the frame.

I saw the build thread on the other plate some time ago and that steel bar running down the center looked pretty bad to me. The point is to increase ground clearance over stock. That seemed counterproductive IMO, but thats what makes a good horse race.

My truck always seems to be the fat kid eating the cupcake.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by rhyary

In addition, the one bolt that holds the arm into the frame is 13mm. Give me a break, it must be the only 13mm in my car. Everything is either 12mm or 14mm.

I'm assuming you are talking head size and not bolt size. Head size has to do whether or not it is a JIS or DIN standard piece of hardware. M8 bolts with a 12mm head are a JIS bolt and pretty hard to get from my experience. The metric house that I get my hardware from, who has been in business forever, can only source a few sizes in the JIS standard.

[IPOR]

Originally Posted by rhyary

All went well until I had to install the support arm.
The holes are about half a hole too short. (5mm?). Yes I know that the skid should move around but there was not play left to align the arm holes.

Yes the skid should move around. While I'm confident the components fit when installed properly it's possible your truck has been in an accident or is otherwise irregular. I'm happy to provide a replacement leg with a slot as discussed on the phone with you.

Additionally, there is nothing at all wrong with the hardware kit provided but if you want something different I'm happy to provide it. (there may be additional cost involved - one of the reasons we use the hardware kit provided with your skid is to keep your cost down - JIS hardware and flange bolts simply cost more, and the hardware provided, while not to your liking is perfectly well suited to this application.)

Incidentally, the factory fasteners are not flange bolts, rather I think the correct term is SEMS. It's a washer installed on the shank of the bolt before rolling the threads thus creating a bolt with a captive washer.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about the hardware so we haven't even had a chance to "upgrade" the kit (and cost). Until we do I'm happy to substitute hardware at buyer's request, just ask when you place the order.

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by IPOR

.............Additionally, there is nothing at all wrong with the hardware kit provided but if you want something different I'm happy to provide it. (there may be additional cost involved - one of the reasons we use the hardware kit provided with your skid is to keep your cost down - JIS hardware and flange bolts simply cost more, and the hardware provided, while not to your liking is perfectly well suited to this application.)

Incidentally, the factory fasteners are not flange bolts, rather I think the correct term is SEMS. It's a washer installed on the shank of the bolt before rolling the threads thus creating a bolt with a captive washer.

As I mentioned earlier, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about the hardware so we haven't even had a chance to "upgrade" the kit (and cost). Until we do I'm happy to substitute hardware at buyer's request, just ask when you place the order.

Is there any reason these original bolts should not be re-used on IPOR skids? I mean other than the obvious (stretched or physically damaged)? I just reused original hardware on my redneck skid - it was still in good shape. It seems to me that suggesting folks re-use their hardware would save some expense.

[rhyary]

The originals are too short for IPOR skid.

I wanted to clarify that I do understand that functionally the kit that was sent has been working fine.
Getting off the phone with Lance he is kind enough to try to putting together an OCD kit.

My visit to the hardware store revealed that an OCD kit may not be trivial to put together.

[rhyary]

HI,
I could not find torque values for the two nuts transmission damper. So I torqued them to 60nm.
This morning I noticed some high frequency buzz in the cabin. If I put my hand on the low gear, the frequency of the buzz is the same.

1. Has any of you how installed the IPOR noticed a buzz coming into the cabin?
2. If the damper nut is tightened, what torque value should I use?

As on observation, I can not see how the IPOR is different from the stock cross member as far as introducing a buzz. Both are bolted to the frame and connect to the car via the damper.

So my hope is that I over tighten the damper nuts...

[96r50]

I would check and see if anything is touching/rubbing/interfering with the transmission or transfer case. The transfer case vibrates and torques a lot and tend to produce buzzing noises.

[rhyary]

96r50,
My question was "what are the torque values"?

"Torque a lot" does not help me because I don't know if 60nm is a lot or little!

[96r50]

The FSM lists the torque spec as 74Nm or 54ftlbs under "engine rear mounting x crossmember".

The "torques a lot" comment was to say that the transfer case twists/moves/vibrates/torques under load, and this movement is, A: normal, and B: known to produce buzzing sounds when things are in contact with it.

[rhyary]

Thanks Adam. Now I know where to look

[rhyary]

Adam,
what top level section did you find the crossmember? I can't find it.

[rhyary]

Ok Found it. So for completeness any one that install the IPOR skid plate please note the following:

1. When I asked Lance for torque values he said "what ever the factory says" with this information we go to the FSM.
2. The FSM section is "Automatic Transmission Unit"
3. The file name is the comp.pdf. There you will find the following values:

Look for "Crossmember with Transfer Under Cover"
The 8 bolts torque values are: 61(n.M) or 45(ft.lbf)
The two nuts for the damper are 74(n.M) or 54 (ft.lbf)

Hope this helps

[96r50]

I also found it in the Torque Specifications page of the AT section. It is a list of every torque spec used in the chapter. Each chapter has one and it makes finding all the specs really easy. Glad you got it worked out. How is the buzzing? Better/worse/gone?

[80t0ylc]

Not to confuse the issue, but I'm assuming that your specs are from the '96 FSM and for your '96. My '94 FSM calls out the same (45 ft.lbf,) for the crossmember bolts. But, quite different for the trans damper nuts (43 ft. lbf.). Must be that they're different trannys.

I'd also recommend that you check torque on all bolts and nuts after 500 miles or so. I guess my OCD is showing a bit, but in doing this, it revealed 4 out of 8 of the bolts had loosened slightly. The tranny nuts remained tight. I did this on both ends of a 400 mile round trip pavement excursion. Second torque check - all were tight.

[rhyary]

80toylc,
I have LX450 and I am using the "1996 Lexus LX450 Repair Manual".
I don't know anything about the Toyota Land Cruisers never drove one, never had one. :-)

As indicated in a previous post, I was unable to torque all the 8 bolts to factory specification.
Some were torqued to 60 but some just deformed the washers supplied and I never got the "click" so I stopped.
I am working with Lance to correct the situation and I have no doubt it is going to be resolved to my satisfaction. Lance has been nothing but outstanding to work with.

Adam,
Tonight I am going the torque it to 74nm and will take it from there.

[landtank]

I had the same washer problem on my truck. It was from having the bolt right on the edge of the hole so the washer had to support the head of the bolt over the slot.

I'm away on business right now but will check my other truck's hardware tp make sure my previous post on the subject is correct.

[1973Guppie]

got my IPOR skid the other day, and I am definetly impressed, it is well made, I as well was going to build one from scratch and it would of worked for sure, but it would not of been this nice. However....

I am PISSED that it got all scratched up in shipping, you guys should really do a better job packaging it when you ship it.

















gotcha, totally fing kidding....

Noah

[rhyary]

For those people that want to use JIS flange bolts for installing the IPOR skid plate.

First IPOR sent me thick washer to replace the original thin ones. I found the new washers to be great.

You will need 8 JIS bolts M10x1.25x40:
M10 is size
1.25 is pitch
40 is 40mm or the length.
You want them to be fully threaded

You will also need JIS M8x1.25x35

You can find 8 here:
M10 X 1.25 X 40 JIS Flange Bolts Qty (1) [MJISFB1040M109] - $1.25 : NutsandBolts.com
tell them you need a fully threaded bolt.

And here:

M8 X 1.25 X 35 JIS Flange Bolts Qty (1) [MJISFB835C109] - $0.75 : NutsandBolts.com

I installed mine without the lock washers, like the OEM.

[Taildragon]

Just got my skid, psyched to install and test at Cruise Moab 2010!

[CycloSteve]

Too funny, my IPOR skid was leaning against my desk this morning...dropped by the local ACE and found that they carry the right JIS flange bolts. Just need to sort out thicker fender washers. Thanks for the specs above!

[IPOR]

Originally Posted by CycloSteve

Just need to sort out thicker fender washers. Thanks for the specs above!

Send us an email (info@ironpigoffroad.com) with your name and ship to address and we'll send you the thicker fender washers at no charge.

HTH!

[CycloSteve]

Done, thanks Lance!

[Rockrawler]

Here is the new hardware you asked for! We are now including the Gr 10.9 JIS flange bolts and larger/thicker washers with every kit.. for all current kits they will be shipped with the new hardware, for existing customers we will supply the larger washers upon request. If you want the JIS bolts with the washers they will run $15 shipped if you purchased the skid within the last 60 days, or $20 for all orders older than 60 days. For a comparison between the old and new style washers here is a side by side shot:

[CreeperSleeper]

I like the new hardware!

[concretejungle]

i guess i don't really understand all the problems with the older hardware?? Mine has held up just fine and i haven't heard of anyone breaking any bolts.