['74 UA FJ]

It doesn't matter if your car was built in 1934, if you are on top of all the maintenance and repairs, it will run forever.

[IdahoDoug]

Well, I'll weigh in and contend that nearly everybody's position in this thread is right. Yes, you should expect better service from your 80 if it's unreliable. Yes, any mechanical work done on it can be done correctly, incorrectly or somewhere in between. And yes, the 80 requires more care than a modern SUV does.

Having said that, I think it's an important point that the 80 was actually designed to be maintained, and that it is arguably the last "modern" (relatively) 4WD vehicle built that way. Its design came out when most vehicles had long ago switched to sealed-for-life components that were not owner serviceable. That is simply because a large portion of LandCruiser sales go to commercial operators with fleet maintenance schedules that keep them properly greased, fluids changed and topped off, and when things break they can be repaired with a basic tool kit versus a roomful of special tools. Another large portion of sales go to owners who'll have them in remote areas where again the same easy to maintain features are valued.

The difference between the "sealed for life" and "maintainable parts" strategies comes down to how they fail. In the case of a "sealed for life" drive shaft the first indication of trouble is usually a sudden noise and shortly thereafter a catastrophic failure. In the case of the 80, the drive shafts start sticking as you come to a stop and lurch as you drive off, and sometimes they vibrate a bit on the highway. A few squirts of grease and all is well again. If it begins to happen every few months, then failure is on the horizon and you'd better plan for whatever parts you need. The parts will end up being $30 worth of CV joint journals and a couple hours to onstall, where the other strategy has you replacing the entire $250 driveshaft.

So, the 80 Series is a throwback to a time when drivers were better attuned to their vehicles and more involved in their maintenance. That time was long before the 80 was actually sold, but I give kudus to Toyota for continuing to offer such a product.

The front axle service is a perfect example. Done right, an 80 series front axle should be operating on its original parts at 200,000 miles. That's right - not a single metal part should need replacing. Not even a bolt. Those who've done this service know that the parts list to do this service is just a bunch of paper gaskets, a few rubber and felt seals, a bunch of grease and a bunch of gear oil. It's incredible what a dealer charges to simply disassemble a few dozen bolts, clean things up, then reassemble it full of fresh grease and oil. Many things on the 80 are like that - simply cleaning up and reassembling to refresh the lubricant protection for parts built to remain in operation thusly maintained. The vehicle was designed for an era when mechanical labor prices were much lower, and it made sense from a total operating cost for the vehicle to be serviced with cheap labor. Unfortunately, labor skyrocketed and made that type of design obsolete. Fortunately for us, there is still a cheap source of labor available - you. Which puts the 80 right back where Toyota intended it to be as a durable and reliable vehicle that is cost effective to drive and own.

To me as a long time 80 owner, it is this aspect of the 80 that makes it incredibly cheap to drive as a DD. That's right - cheap. For those who feel it is expensive, I suggest you sit next to the cashier at any dealership near closing time when people are standing in line to pay their bills and pick up their 70,000 mile out of warranty vehicle. People bring their vehicles in for an oil change, alignment, tire rotation, brake flush, brake job and a couple light bulbs and write checks for $850 without batting an eye. Toss in a diagnostic which discovers a fuel pressure regulator failing, and wheel bearing replacement and the check's going to be $1400 real quick. The amount of money regular people spend on regular maintenance of a modern car is eyepopping.

It's important to keep in mind that most of the vehicles here on Mud being discussed have between 130,000 miles and 180,000 miles with the average in the 150,000 mile range. Most vehicles with those miles are smoking, sagging, hulks or in a junkyard. So if you're still driving one and the PO did not maintain it well, you're going to find out when things start to go. Happily, you can do it yourself with a modest array of tools at reasonable cost.

So I'm bummed that IronYuppy has these returning issues with his 80. And I'm bummed that he didn't get the service he deserved and that this has befallen other Cruiser brethren as well. But be encouraged that these are not complex vehicles, nor difficult to maintain yourself. Consider getting a factory service manual and reading up on it a bit. Once you see the diagrams and how things come apart the beauty of its design will captivate you in a way no vehicle designed with "sealed for life" stuff can. And once you have done some major maintenance on your 80 with your own two hands it will start to talk to you just like a friend. This very day, I changed the oil on Bessie in the driveway. While the last dregs of the oil dripped out (this is the most important part of the oil to drain btw and time-conscious oil change places never allow it so much time) I lay under there and looked around for any telltale signs of leaks or damage. All's well, and she's ready for a summer of playtime once I flush the coolant and tend to the block heater seep. She's a good girl and at 190,000 miles I consider her middle aged and in great shape. Kinda like me - heh.

DougM

[UCBerzerkeley]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Well, I'll weigh in and contend that nearly everybody's position in this thread is right. Yes, you should expect better service from your 80 if it's unreliable. Yes, any mechanical work done on it can be done correctly, incorrectly or somewhere in between. And yes, the 80 requires more care than a modern SUV does.

Having said that, I think it's an important point that the 80 was actually designed to be maintained, and that it is arguably the last "modern" (relatively) 4WD vehicle built that way. Its design came out when most vehicles had long ago switched to sealed-for-life components that were not owner serviceable. That is simply because a large portion of LandCruiser sales go to commercial operators with fleet maintenance schedules that keep them properly greased, fluids changed and topped off, and when things break they can be repaired with a basic tool kit versus a roomful of special tools. Another large portion of sales go to owners who'll have them in remote areas where again the same easy to maintain features are valued.

The difference between the "sealed for life" and "maintainable parts" strategies comes down to how they fail. In the case of a "sealed for life" drive shaft the first indication of trouble is usually a sudden noise and shortly thereafter a catastrophic failure. In the case of the 80, the drive shafts start sticking as you come to a stop and lurch as you drive off, and sometimes they vibrate a bit on the highway. A few squirts of grease and all is well again. If it begins to happen every few months, then failure is on the horizon and you'd better plan for whatever parts you need. The parts will end up being $30 worth of CV joint journals and a couple hours to onstall, where the other strategy has you replacing the entire $250 driveshaft.

So, the 80 Series is a throwback to a time when drivers were better attuned to their vehicles and more involved in their maintenance. That time was long before the 80 was actually sold, but I give kudus to Toyota for continuing to offer such a product.

The front axle service is a perfect example. Done right, an 80 series front axle should be operating on its original parts at 200,000 miles. That's right - not a single metal part should need replacing. Not even a bolt. Those who've done this service know that the parts list to do this service is just a bunch of paper gaskets, a few rubber and felt seals, a bunch of grease and a bunch of gear oil. It's incredible what a dealer charges to simply disassemble a few dozen bolts, clean things up, then reassemble it full of fresh grease and oil. Many things on the 80 are like that - simply cleaning up and reassembling to refresh the lubricant protection for parts built to remain in operation thusly maintained. The vehicle was designed for an era when mechanical labor prices were much lower, and it made sense from a total operating cost for the vehicle to be serviced with cheap labor. Unfortunately, labor skyrocketed and made that type of design obsolete. Fortunately for us, there is still a cheap source of labor available - you. Which puts the 80 right back where Toyota intended it to be as a durable and reliable vehicle that is cost effective to drive and own.

To me as a long time 80 owner, it is this aspect of the 80 that makes it incredibly cheap to drive as a DD. That's right - cheap. For those who feel it is expensive, I suggest you sit next to the cashier at any dealership near closing time when people are standing in line to pay their bills and pick up their 70,000 mile out of warranty vehicle. People bring their vehicles in for an oil change, alignment, tire rotation, brake flush, brake job and a couple light bulbs and write checks for $850 without batting an eye. Toss in a diagnostic which discovers a fuel pressure regulator failing, and wheel bearing replacement and the check's going to be $1400 real quick. The amount of money regular people spend on regular maintenance of a modern car is eyepopping.

It's important to keep in mind that most of the vehicles here on Mud being discussed have between 130,000 miles and 180,000 miles with the average in the 150,000 mile range. Most vehicles with those miles are smoking, sagging, hulks or in a junkyard. So if you're still driving one and the PO did not maintain it well, you're going to find out when things start to go. Happily, you can do it yourself with a modest array of tools at reasonable cost.

So I'm bummed that IronYuppy has these returning issues with his 80. And I'm bummed that he didn't get the service he deserved and that this has befallen other Cruiser brethren as well. But be encouraged that these are not complex vehicles, nor difficult to maintain yourself. Consider getting a factory service manual and reading up on it a bit. Once you see the diagrams and how things come apart the beauty of its design will captivate you in a way no vehicle designed with "sealed for life" stuff can. And once you have done some major maintenance on your 80 with your own two hands it will start to talk to you just like a friend. This very day, I changed the oil on Bessie in the driveway. While the last dregs of the oil dripped out (this is the most important part of the oil to drain btw and time-conscious oil change places never allow it so much time) I lay under there and looked around for any telltale signs of leaks or damage. All's well, and she's ready for a summer of playtime once I flush the coolant and tend to the block heater seep. She's a good girl and at 190,000 miles I consider her middle aged and in great shape. Kinda like me - heh.

DougM

truly fantastic

[mainemike]

I love my cup of coffee in the morning and surfing to mud and finding one of Doug's posts waxing poetic about the 80s... we should accumulate all of Doug's soulful ramblings as part of the FAQ: they really should be part of the "Considering an 80 series" FAQ.

[pheasbo]

been lurking and being on the fence re: the purchase of an 80. The cost of ownership is why I am ditching my current vehicle, 99 Ford SD diesel, that and an expanding family. The cost of ownership of an 80 seems to be in the same realm as my Ford, $$$$. I do a lot of my own maintenance on the Ford, oil changes, fuel filter (super easy) zerks, brakes etc. I've done a HG on a 350, took a while, but got it done. Done valve cover gaskets, front and rear diff oil changes. With the fam responsibilities time is hard to come by.

Great site, lots of good info and I have learned a lot. I feel I can speak LC fairly fluently. Thanks for that.

Here are a couple of local (to me) rigs for sale. This first one, the price isn't a typo, and as far as the meticulously maintained, well, the current owner couldn't tell me if the HG, front axle maintenance, birfs, PHH had been done. It is priced that way because of the lift when I asked if the price was a typo.
1997 Toyota Land Cruiser

This next one has me curious as it is a fleet vehicle and has supposedly had all the maintenance done with records to support. However, in the photo there are noticeable oil leaks on the driveway and the owner couldn't tell me where they were coming from. I hate oil\fluid leak stains on my driveway. Very anal about that. 1996 Lexus LX-450 / Land Cruiser

Still don't know what kind of vehicle to buy, 4-door truck, Suburban, LC, or keep mine and make it work for child seats. Need a daily driver and need a reliable vehicle. If it has been serviced as has been mentioned, they should be good to go with the higher mileage. Not a hard core wheeler, but I do my share of it in varying terrain.

Again, quality site and thanks for the info.

[Leroy]

If you really want a diesel and you live in Canada, wouldn't it make sense to just sell your current rig and buy an 81?... sure large SUV's values are low, but doesn't that carry over to the 81 or is it just on gasoline SUV's?? ..... i would consider my time and $$$ on parts, etc. you need to put into your current cruiser, the cost of a diesel swap and put it towards a diesel 81. Just my $.02. Seems like a no brainer to me. You say you've lost confidence in the vehicle, so what's peace of mind worth as well?

[Toyote]

That's it. I'm starting an IdahoDoug fan page on Facebook. It's all I got.

[concretejungle]

I feel your pain!

When funds are low, seems like things go wrong with the truck. But, after saying that my 80 has never left me stranded. Well, in my driveway at home the starter went out on me, but that's it.

now, my front axle isn't leaking, but it has held up for almost 100,000 miles on a solid rebuild that i took my time on and used all OEM parts.

my exhaust is busted and dangling which is causing a check engine light, but that is my fault for hitting it on rocks.

my PS is leaking and groaning, but that i attribute to poor maintenance and big tires.

however, there are times i feel like throwing in the towel and just getting a motorcycle to ride.

[Toyote]

Less tech and more chat, but a heads up. I was serious about the IdahoDoug facebook group: IdahoDoug: aka MasterCruiser | Facebook

[Marco7]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Well, I'll weigh in and contend that nearly everybody's position in this thread is right. Yes, you should expect better service from your 80 if it's unreliable. Yes, any mechanical work done on it can be done correctly, incorrectly or somewhere in between. And yes, the 80 requires more care than a modern SUV does.

Having said that, I think it's an important point that the 80 was actually designed to be maintained, and that it is arguably the last "modern" (relatively) 4WD vehicle built that way. Its design came out when most vehicles had long ago switched to sealed-for-life components that were not owner serviceable. That is simply because a large portion of LandCruiser sales go to commercial operators with fleet maintenance schedules that keep them properly greased, fluids changed and topped off, and when things break they can be repaired with a basic tool kit versus a roomful of special tools. Another large portion of sales go to owners who'll have them in remote areas where again the same easy to maintain features are valued.

The difference between the "sealed for life" and "maintainable parts" strategies comes down to how they fail. In the case of a "sealed for life" drive shaft the first indication of trouble is usually a sudden noise and shortly thereafter a catastrophic failure. In the case of the 80, the drive shafts start sticking as you come to a stop and lurch as you drive off, and sometimes they vibrate a bit on the highway. A few squirts of grease and all is well again. If it begins to happen every few months, then failure is on the horizon and you'd better plan for whatever parts you need. The parts will end up being $30 worth of CV joint journals and a couple hours to onstall, where the other strategy has you replacing the entire $250 driveshaft.

So, the 80 Series is a throwback to a time when drivers were better attuned to their vehicles and more involved in their maintenance. That time was long before the 80 was actually sold, but I give kudus to Toyota for continuing to offer such a product.

The front axle service is a perfect example. Done right, an 80 series front axle should be operating on its original parts at 200,000 miles. That's right - not a single metal part should need replacing. Not even a bolt. Those who've done this service know that the parts list to do this service is just a bunch of paper gaskets, a few rubber and felt seals, a bunch of grease and a bunch of gear oil. It's incredible what a dealer charges to simply disassemble a few dozen bolts, clean things up, then reassemble it full of fresh grease and oil. Many things on the 80 are like that - simply cleaning up and reassembling to refresh the lubricant protection for parts built to remain in operation thusly maintained. The vehicle was designed for an era when mechanical labor prices were much lower, and it made sense from a total operating cost for the vehicle to be serviced with cheap labor. Unfortunately, labor skyrocketed and made that type of design obsolete. Fortunately for us, there is still a cheap source of labor available - you. Which puts the 80 right back where Toyota intended it to be as a durable and reliable vehicle that is cost effective to drive and own.

To me as a long time 80 owner, it is this aspect of the 80 that makes it incredibly cheap to drive as a DD. That's right - cheap. For those who feel it is expensive, I suggest you sit next to the cashier at any dealership near closing time when people are standing in line to pay their bills and pick up their 70,000 mile out of warranty vehicle. People bring their vehicles in for an oil change, alignment, tire rotation, brake flush, brake job and a couple light bulbs and write checks for $850 without batting an eye. Toss in a diagnostic which discovers a fuel pressure regulator failing, and wheel bearing replacement and the check's going to be $1400 real quick. The amount of money regular people spend on regular maintenance of a modern car is eyepopping.

It's important to keep in mind that most of the vehicles here on Mud being discussed have between 130,000 miles and 180,000 miles with the average in the 150,000 mile range. Most vehicles with those miles are smoking, sagging, hulks or in a junkyard. So if you're still driving one and the PO did not maintain it well, you're going to find out when things start to go. Happily, you can do it yourself with a modest array of tools at reasonable cost.

So I'm bummed that IronYuppy has these returning issues with his 80. And I'm bummed that he didn't get the service he deserved and that this has befallen other Cruiser brethren as well. But be encouraged that these are not complex vehicles, nor difficult to maintain yourself. Consider getting a factory service manual and reading up on it a bit. Once you see the diagrams and how things come apart the beauty of its design will captivate you in a way no vehicle designed with "sealed for life" stuff can. And once you have done some major maintenance on your 80 with your own two hands it will start to talk to you just like a friend. This very day, I changed the oil on Bessie in the driveway. While the last dregs of the oil dripped out (this is the most important part of the oil to drain btw and time-conscious oil change places never allow it so much time) I lay under there and looked around for any telltale signs of leaks or damage. All's well, and she's ready for a summer of playtime once I flush the coolant and tend to the block heater seep. She's a good girl and at 190,000 miles I consider her middle aged and in great shape. Kinda like me - heh.

DougM

Excellent post.

x2 on the service departments. My step dad has a Caddy Dts that he likes to have serviced at the dealers for routine oil changes.
Sometimes I'll go with him, it's astounding the conversations i hear in the waiting room b/w the service writer and the customers.
Few weeks ago a lady had her window regulator go out on the same car, price $690. I had repaired the same problem on my stepdad's last year, it's a poorly designed regulator where a piece of plastic holds the end of the cable. Once the plastic fails, the regulator stops functioning. The fix: dremel out the remaining bits of plastic and replace it with a U-bracket piece of aluminum. total cost about $3 for the metal at Lowes.
This was obviously engineered to fail, something that I've seen far too many times with Ford and GM vehicles.
That's one of the main reasons I like our LC/LX line of vehicles, they were built to last... with the possible exception of the latest model.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by landtank

one thing people need to realize is that the master mechanics that originally were factory trained on these trucks are probably retired now or close to it. When working on a high mileage 80 the mechanic's experience with the system is crucial to having a good outcome with lasting reliability. He needs to see those future problems before they are obvious to the driver.

If you want reliable factory service then owning any 15 year old vehicle is not the smart choice to make. And if you do own a 15 tear old vehicle you should learn to fix it yourself or find someone who is intimately aware of how to do it for you.

Bingo! Also note that this isn't a Toyota problem, this is a DEALER problem. Take an air-cooled Porsche into a dealership today, you'll have all the techs looking for the radiator. A good tech is an EXPERIENCED tech. If they very rarely work on a vehicle, they're no more adept than most of us. Dealerships sell new cars, that's how they make money. Therefore, most of the cars that are serviced at that dealer are also newer. Such is life. Either DIY or find an experienced tech.

A few other points. As far as I'm concerned, you have the right to bitch about your unreliable 80 if you've owned it since new and maintained it by the book with factory parts. Otherwise you will inevitably deal with failures caused by the neglect/stupidity of others and possibly yourself. Very few 80s have been properly maintained over the life of the vehicle.

The newest 80 is 12 years old, the oldest is 18. THESE ARE NOT NEW CARS. I just find it very amusing when people complain about an old, high mileage vehicle occasionally breaking. You have to be realistic.

[khoopes]

My advice is don't DD your projects. I tried to drive an 88 hiluz and an 87 T-4Runner while I "upgraded them and it was a fiasco. Toyota Service took 9 weeks to get my rearends rebuilt and I still don't think its right.

Our Cruisers are old and you have to plan ahead. They will go 300000 miles but not without help on some of them. And NEVER use USED parts, I say.

[IronYuppy]

Originally Posted by UCBerzerkeley

truly fantastic

x2. Doug's the man.

Originally Posted by Leroy

If you really want a diesel and you live in Canada, wouldn't it make sense to just sell your current rig and buy an 81?... sure large SUV's values are low, but doesn't that carry over to the 81 or is it just on gasoline SUV's?? ..... i would consider my time and $$$ on parts, etc. you need to put into your current cruiser, the cost of a diesel swap and put it towards a diesel 81. Just my $.02. Seems like a no brainer to me. You say you've lost confidence in the vehicle, so what's peace of mind worth as well?

I have some $$$ into my rig for mods and such.

OME lift, sliders, Iron Pig T-plate, new-ish 295/75s, body lift, good stereo, Tuffy console, bedlined panels, Lexus interior, Slee brake lines, winch, custom bumper, etc etc etc.

But I'd be lucky to get $5k for it in this climate (regular is still over $4 a gallon here).

If I were to ditch my 80 and buy an 81 I would be out of pocket an estimate $6k-$8k, plus the cost of replacing the mods (another $2.5k, give or take).

Also, two other things: I may opt to move back to the US one day and I want to keep my rig if I do. And, (minor issue) I H8 RHD.

At this point, it's a case of "the devil I know". There have been a few 81 issues locally (due to poor PO care, shady dealers, etc). One of our club members has one that had overheated in the past and his head was warped. He also has fuel pump issues. Another member has a dodgy tranny. Consider, for a moment, what an HDJ81 fuel pump will cost - if you can get one. I would hate to give up my albatross for an unknown quantity. If and when I do my swap, it will be with a brand new or completely torn-down/rebuilt longblock.

I should repeat - I still love my truck and I plan on keeping it for as long as I can. I just needed a place to vent. It was either ragging on 'Mud or beating my girlfriend.

[Chrishdj80]

Originally Posted by IronYuppy

I should repeat - I still love my truck and I plan on keeping it for as long as I can. I just needed a place to vent. It was either ragging on 'Mud or beating my girlfriend.

Cruisers are like wives.

They start of as a great girlfriend, for fun and leisure.

Then they develop akward tendencies, they simply demand your attention. And get it one way or another.

After a long time of mostly good, sometimes bad and exceptionally ugly you end up with a ring on your finger.
Doesn't matter what mods you fling at her, she nails you in the longrun.

Cruisers and wives, can't live with em and certainly can't live without em.

[cruiserdan]

At least you can easily remove the flares from an 80 to make it narrower...................

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

At least you can easily remove the flares from an 80 to make it narrower...................

- and not get slapped doing it or talking about it - before, during or after!

[pmccumber]

Originally Posted by Chrishdj80

Cruisers are like wives.

You scared me there. I had to run and make sure my best friend hadn't taken off with my 80.

[woodsman 44]

I have the solution.........buy a J**P .....then you will come running back to your cruiser!!!

[hawaiicruz]

Ok I'll chime in.
When I bought my truck I wasnt even looking for an LC. I was looking for tacoma, which was what I had experience with. I couldnt find any pickups that I was happy with, as they seem to be at a premium in Hawaii. I found a cruiser that I thought was a good price. and seemed to be in fairly good shape. It had no maintenence records and the PO was less than forthcoming about the cost of ownership.
I remember lifting the hood and seeing the straight six, and just scratching my head. then I climbed under it and saw coil springs and traction bars and just saying to myself, well it is a toyota and landcruisers are supposed to be an extremly tough vehicle.
All I knew about 80s was that they were originally really expensive and tended to be driven by yuppies.
So I decided to take the plunge. I knew nothing about MUD
if I had read the FAQs before I bought it, I probably would have been scared off.
I got the truck home and started to do my homework. found MUD and realized just what kind of vehicle I had purchased. I remember my first post where I refered to the 80 as a soccer mom car and talked of flipping it for a quick profit...you could hear the wind blow through the lack of responses I got to that one.
Fast forward one year, the 80 is by far the best vehicle I have ever owned. I am continually amazed at how overbuilt it is. and how capable it is off road. I run circles around my friends in they're tacos and jeeps.
I'm still working on baselineing it and love learning how to work on it with all the help from this incredible forum. For instance, power window problems ; solved by going on MUD then tearing the whole thing apart and learning myself exactly how to fix it. When I ran out of info on MUD about the dead spot on the bottom of the drivers window I tore the window motor apart and found cleaning the brushes fixed the problem. When I couldnt figure out how to get the axle snap ring back on after a bearing repack. I just asked for some real time help, and had the problem fixed within an hour.
I'm looking forward to some of the more complex PMs, like front axle service, and god forbid HG. I plan to tackle these by myself with my FSM and help from all the great people on MUD.

I guess my point is the 80 is not your average car and owning one takes a certain commitment. If you dont enjoy wrenching, it might not be the best vehicle to own. I also dont think I could stand working on it without the help of this excellent forum. It has saved me hours of time and countless mistakes.



80 series and mud, you cant have one without the other!

[hi3cmz]

Poor man, but I think you just went to wrong place, like me. I went to a diesel rebuilt shop to adjust pump and injectors, and they forgot to put new washers on #6 injector, bent high pressure pipe, mis-assembled injector hense leaking etc + $800 bill, so, I say, no more, I will learn myself, to take care of my truck, and here I am~ keep reading...

[KliersLC]

I told you that you should have bought my 94.....