[landtank]

NaterGater, I've done three round trips to NC in the last year and a half and had only 1 failure, a SS brake line. It did kind of suck as the pressure of getting home left me diagnostically impudent.

Once hom,e I figured it out the next day.

[NaterGator]

The apologists saying that it's the fault of the owner are baffling, because where else do you buy a product with the expectation of future service (which you are paying for at that future date) but repeatedly have to deal with inferior service and are then told "that comes with the game. You should know better and DIY or find a third party that knows what they are doing." That either reflects poorly on Toyota as a company or it reflects poorly on the design of the 80 series in regards to it's maintenance procedures. The whole point of paying dealer prices and book hourly labor rates (and for OEM parts) is that you are supposed to be given a level of service that reflects the cost. Dealer installed bearings that don't even last the life of the first repack are not even remotely in that category of service and no customer should get blamed for that.


I'm sorry, I'd love to have the time to work on my truck 24/7 and when I do I am one of the anal ones who turns the cone washer slots outwards so they don't trap anything... I know this is taken basically as heresy but in my experience the design of at least some of the 80 series does not reflect well on it's long term reliability given accepted and traditional maintenance procedures (IE: OEM dealer services) that work for other vehicles. I am in no way saying it is a bad design, I am saying it is a frustrating design. It's an old heavy vehicle with lots of complicated moving parts, and I get that, but you have to admit there are some shortcomings in regards to servicing simplicity.

I'll get chewed out and told to go home or switch cars or whatever but that is missing the fundamental point. I don't want to do that, I like the landcruiser and I like the overall design and drivability of the vehicle, I like the ability to point it in any direction and have it go there. What I do not like, and what I see as a fundamental flaw, is the lengths and depths required to keep one in reliable working condition. That is what IY and I are lamenting and frustrated over; it doesn't mean I'll switch cars or even that I necessarily want to... it is just identifying that it is extremely frustrating that the 80 series seems to leave you stranded at the worst possible time unless you go to great lengths (or expenses) to service it. All of which is essentially laid out in the "before you buy" section of the FAQ, but I don't think you can properly understand the annoyance until something goes catastrophically wrong at the worst possible time and you followed accepted and recommended procedures to prevent that from happening.

[IronYuppy]

What I find interesting is that both sides of this "debate" (such as it is) are saying the same thing - the 80 really can't be relied upon as a daily driver. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it appears that the defenders are saying "just keep fixing it", and suggesting that ideal 80 ownership means having a secondary vehicle.

I have no complaints about the overall design of my truck. It really is as good as it gets.

But... in my 2+ years of ownership, my truck has never been 100% functional. There's always something. I would expect that in a 1976 MGB, not in Toyota's flagship vehicle.

But I acknowledge that this is more a case of PO neglect and the 15 year age of the truck more than it is the design.

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

The apologists saying that it's the fault of the owner are baffling, because where else do you buy a product with the expectation of future service (which you are paying for at that future date) but repeatedly have to deal with inferior service and are then told "that comes with the game. You should know better and DIY or find a third party that knows what they are doing." That either reflects poorly on Toyota as a company or it reflects poorly on the design of the 80 series in regards to it's maintenance procedures. The whole point of paying dealer prices and book hourly labor rates (and for OEM parts) is that you are supposed to be given a level of service that reflects the cost. Dealer installed bearings that don't even last the life of the first repack are not even remotely in that category of service and no customer should get blamed for that.

They should have not failed, you are not at fault. Whoever worked on the truck did a poor job. I would dump it in the lap of that business.




By way of illustration, Toyota hasn't sold a carbureted vehicle in the US since ~1990. We have TWO guys in our shop that even know what a carburetor is.

I guess it reflects poorly on Toyota beacuse they stopped making carbureted vehicles two decades ago and now almost no one knows how to work on them?

['74 UA FJ]

Suck it up. All vehicles are better off serviced by someone who knows what they are doing. I agree that Toyota dealerships should employ techs that know wtf they are doing, but the fact is that a lot of them don't. In a period of 5 years, I owned my FJ40, a Lexus ls400, a '93 chevy silverado, and an '85 chevy silverado. My 35 year old FJ40 was the most reliable vehicle of them all. Why? Because I did all the work on it myself and knew exactly how and why everything worked. I would drive it across the country today, with no hesitation. It would be a long trip but I wouldn't worry about anything happening to it because I have done all the maintenance on it and I KNOW it's right.

Bottom line: If you want to drive a 10+ year old vehicle, you need to have the time to work on it yourself, or you need to have a good mechanic that you trust to work on it. I only know one mechanic that I would let touch my vehicles. I've dealt with him for almost 10 years and he's good and honest. He still hasn't ever touched my 40 because I enjoy working on it.

[80t0ylc]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

The apologists saying that it's the fault of the owner are baffling, .....yata, yata, yata............

WHO ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME????? Someone has to take ownership of the problem. If you think anyone else on the planet really cares, you are only deluding yourself!!! My comments and other similar comments are only intending to help, and that's all we can do. If you expect someone else to pick up the ball and run for you - don't hold your breath! You can spout excuses and blame designs and cry foul till your blue in the face. Yes,. it's frustrating, we all sympathize with you, but how much help does sympathy really give you? If we buy a used vehicle, isn't it common knowledge that we are at the mercy of the maintenance habits of the PO? Just because it's an 80 does not exempt it from the laws of nature. Same goes for usage after it's baselined.

I don't know what your profession is, but I've been in maintenance or service my whole working life (36years) and if there is one thing that I have learned about mechanical things, it is this:

Nothing is failsafe. Quality helps but, is no substitute for negligence. If you don't stay on top of it, it will get on top of you.

People who don't or won't understand or accept this will be victims of technology. They're under the misguided fantasy that luck will be in their favor. That is why most good technicians that I have ever worked with are pessimists. They understand the concept and don't make assumptions and realize, that basically, if you want something done correctly you do it yourself. Very, very rarely do you take someone else's word for it, and then only if they have some "skin in the game".

PM & proper regular maintenance take time, there is no substitute. Too many of us are victims of shortcuts or just plain negligence. There's a price to be paid for reliability, and it goes beyond the dollar.

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

They should have not failed, you are not at fault. Whoever worked on the truck did a poor job. I would dump it in the lap of that business.

By way of illustration, Toyota hasn't sold a carbureted vehicle in the US since ~1990. We have TWO guys in our shop that even know what a carburetor is.

I guess it reflects poorly on Toyota beacuse they stopped making carbureted vehicles two decades ago and now almost no one knows how to work on them?

See, and I feel that is an appropriate response. And I don't want Lexus of Tampa to comp my wheel bearings or anything, because the fact is I did open up the axle and did reinstall them myself and that is when I started noticing vibes. But I have pictures from that point (before I drove, only after opening) showing what the tech in Jacksonville said was improper wear that warranted replacing the bearings: A) I know now to replace if I see anything like that and B) I accept that there is no recourse for me in that situation. That's my fault and life is tough.

Where I think Toyota has failed, or at least more to the point where they haven't gotten control of the situation, is that dealerships should either: a) employ techs to know how to work on these vehicles and only let those techs work on them or b) say "sorry, this vehicle is out of the scope of what we train our techs to service anymore".

If they had said "save your money, our techs can't do this job correctly" instead of charging me nearly $500 for a wheel bearing repack only to destroy my bearings, hey great. Even if they said "this is out of the scope of our service department, we won't warranty the work" and charged a different price I'd have a different attitude. The thing is you go to the OEM dealer and pay OEM prices expecting an OEM level of service.

I don't think Toyota should stick with old designs... that's silly. I think Toyota should deal with the service problems or admit they aren't going to be able to service the vehicle properly anymore.

[Romer]

Nator - has to do with experiance and have these mechanics ever worked on one. They have the FSM and hopefully a master mechanic around who maybe did one a while ago.

I dont take my vehicles to the dealer (except for the 06 4runner). There are a few shops here and mechanics around who have experiance working on these rigs and I take it there.

I would go back to the dealer and talk about two failures where they have done the work and you want someone to redo it who has lots of experinace with Solid front axels. I wouldnt have my local dealer do a solid front axle rebuild. I would trust them to replace a CV joint on Rachels 99 4runner because that hasn't changed much.

The other thing with dealers (No insult intented) is they look for a problem and suggest replacement. I had them do something on my 80 while we were moving (cant remember). They told me I needed a new Power steering gear box and those are expensive.

Yup there was fluid caked on it, but I had replaced the Power steering pump a while ago and I just tightned up the High Pressure hose and no more leak

These are just my opinions.

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by Romer

The other thing with dealers (No insult intented) is they look for a problem and suggest replacement. I had them do something on my 80 while we were moving (cant remember). They told me I needed a new Power steering gear box and those are expensive.

Yup there was fluid caked on it, but I had replaced the Power steering pump a while ago and I just tightned up the High Pressure hose.

Romer, I agree and that is my experience too. My driver's seat went in working and at some point when somebody (not surprisingly) significantly taller than me moved the seat back, the cap came out of the motor. Well, the vacuumed the car and lost the cap, and when I got it back and tried to move the seat forward it wouldn't budge. They quoted me $2000 for an entire new drivers seat as a fix for the problem as I laughed my way to 'Mud to get nakman replacement parts to fix it.

I don't trust the dealer unconditionally, but if this job is something a shadetree mechanic can do with basic tools and by proceeding carefully I'm shocked that toyota techs can't get it right with a plethora of tools and full access to an FSM.


I am comfortable with the tech working on my truck in Jax now because he has gone through the teardown with me and knew exactly what he was talking about. Obviously Toyota employs competent technicians and there are people capable of working on these rig who want to get the job done to the customer's satisfaction... and kudos to those techs. I just frustrates me that I'm 50/50 in getting an OEM level of service versus getting expensive catastrophic failure. I think that's universally and undeniably frustrating, and it is an aspect of the 80 series because I have a hard time believing the same failure rate would crop up if it were a 1996 Camry.

[canman]

I have a 2000 Volvo XC that I purchased used 4.5 yrs ago in which I have had to replace the both the trans (used) and driveshaft ($5K+) which according to Volvo almost never fails. I believe that some of these issues can be traced back to previous owner and design flaws. It seems that no matter what type of veh you drive or how much you paid for it, there will always be some quirks (i.e. design flaws) that will cause you some type of grief. As others have mentioned, when driving in a 12+ year old veh you have to expect some issues, and what helps tremendously is doing what work you can yourself (assuming you use the right parts (OEM) and you do it correctly). I would never take my LX to a Lexus Dealer for any major repairs and I have only taken it there once to have some diagnosis done when it was running poorly (bad O2 sensor) since I did not have a scan tool at the time. I can say that these vehs do require a lot of preventative maintenance, and are very expensive to maintain (using OEM parts), but in the two years I have had mine (30K miles), it has never let me down - knock on wood.

[landtank]

one thing people need to realize is that the master mechanics that originally were factory trained on these trucks are probably retired now or close to it. When working on a high mileage 80 the mechanic's experience with the system is crucial to having a good outcome with lasting reliability. He needs to see those future problems before they are obvious to the driver.

If you want reliable factory service then owning any 15 year old vehicle is not the smart choice to make. And if you do own a 15 tear old vehicle you should learn to fix it yourself or find someone who is intimately aware of how to do it for you.

[80t0ylc]

Wondering if MUD ought to have a dedicated forum to Toyota and dealership dealings. I guess in my ranting in post #36, I didn't give much thought or relevance to the problems in doing business with the service department. I think it comes from my premise that they are basically there for the bottom line ($). They cater to the masses and they do that for survival. If their service is inconsistent, it's partially because they suffer from the same syndrome we all do: if you don't use it - you lose it.

Disclaimer: This in no way reflects Cdan's efforts for MUD. He has gone above and beyond for MUD and it's members and it's very noticable, even to myself, in the shorttime that I have been a MUD member. It's a shame that we can't say that about our local Toyota dealerships.

It would be counter-productive, on this tech forum, to get very deep in to the reasons and philosophies of how the dealer's service areas should be run. This is a tech forum, for helping guys work on their 80 series rig, not the better business bureau.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

I am comfortable with the tech working on my truck in Jax now because he has gone through the teardown with me and knew exactly what he was talking about.

I don't see how you can make this call on his ability.

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by landtank

I don't see how you can make this call on his ability.

Because he was citing specific parts, specific areas of wear that were familiar to him in working on landcruisers. He knew the difference between the new style spindle with the roller bearings and the old style spindle and lamented the irritation of the knuckle studs getting loose. From the way he spoke casually about the axle without my prompting it sounded like he's worked on his fair share of 80 series cruisers. Perhaps they assign certain techs specific vehicles more often at that dealership... who knows?

And with all due respect, but your sentiment about old vehicles rings of the classic "expendable wheels" attitude that seems to pervade the American auto industry. Cars are not disposable and I can't excuse poor service from a company with a reputation like Toyota's on vehicles they were shifting brand new off the lot 12 years ago. If we are led to believe these are designed to last as long as we claim, we should expect Toyota to be competent in backing and servicing them, should we not?

[landtank]

the American public makes these vehicles expendable. Once they hit the second or third owner they are no longer considered worth having the dealers do the maintenance. This is because, in their view, it's more cost effective to buy another new one.

Toyota dealers are just supplying the service that the American public wants. Why have a stock of high end mechanics that nobody whats to pay for. You and a few others are the minority. Not saying it's right, but it is how I see it.

[PapaSmurfj80]

My 2 cents. After purchasing a low mileage, but neglected 80, I took it to the dealership to get some work done that was beyond my skill level. The service manager told me that they don't really get land cruisers and that the tech in charge would need a few days to read up on the FSM before doing the job. This told me a few things:

1. The tech would would be learning as he went.
2. I could not trust his work regardless since he didn't understand the land cruiser's "unique-ness"
3. If I was to ever trust any sort of repair on my rig, I would have to take the time and learn it myself.

Since I didn't / don't have time to work on my cars all day, I sold it and am looking for something a little more "common" such as a 4runner. I will always love LCs and wish that I had time and cash to keep them going, but it was said earlier that the constant little problems don't seem to happen to the camry's and corrollas....and for a rig that is so $$$$, I expect these nuances to be relatively non-existent.

[cruiserdan]

Any "intelligent" mechanic can work on an 80 Series Cruiser. If the vehicle was so "unmanagable" then this entire group of "shade tree" wannabees would be way out-classed. Clearly this is not the case.

This group has gone well out of it's way to learn more about this particular vehicle than most professional mechanics ever considered or remotely cared about.

I speak 80 Series Cruiser in my sleep but I can't tell you shit about an '06 Camry. I don't care about Camrys so it doesn't matter to me. If I had to work on one I would get the book out and start cramming.

[Romer]

All I can say is this isn't a perfect world. You go to one dealer and they are about making money and another dealer and they are about making the customer happy. Thats true with any brand. And in any dealer your service experience is only as good as the people who work on your stuff. Do you get the mechanic who wants to stretch himself and not ask for help and doesn't realize when he makes a mistake, or the older mechanic who could do it in his sleep.

Thats why when I had the head gasket done, I wanted Robbie to do it. Wouldn't have taken it to a dealer. Would have trusted Slee or Irbis or Lexusben to do it as well since they know these vehicles.

I am thinking we derailed Ironpuupy's thread enough

[The Abbot]

meh... The way I see it, good things in life generally don't come easy (or cheap, for that matter.) If your rig is a headache to you because of the cost (both monetarily and timewise) of ownership/maintenance/upkeep, faaack it- sell the beast and buy something you view as "more reliable", if you don't feel confident that you can just hop in it and drive anywhere you care to visit on Gods green earth.

I love how this thread has derailed into a discussion about the competence of Toyota dealership techs

My offer for trade still stands to anybody unhappy w/ their rig, btw.


PS- call me crazy, but isn't this entire thread more of a chatty/general discussion topic than anything tech-specific to the 80?

Just sayin'...

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by Romer

I am thinking we derailed Ironpuupy's thread enough

Originally Posted by The Abbot

I love how this thread has derailed into a discussion about the competence of Toyota dealership techs

PS- call me crazy, but isn't this entire thread more of a chatty/general discussion topic than anything tech-specific to the 80?

"Just saying..." but wasn't IY's original point to this thread: "There's no real point to this thread, except for venting."
...
"My neighbour has a 2004 Disco which has never, ever failed him. Just sayin'. "


I understand I'm not going to be popular for bringing this up in the 80 series forum and didn't expect popularity because of it, but I think it's pretty asinine to attack a fellow 80 owner over their observations. Sure you make not like them much and sure they may not jive with the general train of thought that prevades this forum but IME they are valid observations. I think on many levels Dan, Ken, et al share the same basic views.

This thread isn't exactly about sharing all the rosy happy times when your 80 takes you 3000 miles to Moab and back to Australia because you live next door to the guy who engineered the suspension, though. This thread is, evidently unpopularly, lamenting the frustrating aspect of the 80 series wherin if you don't have significant time/resources to devote to it yourself or an exceptionally qualified mechanic it becomes a pain-in-the ass DD from time to time.

I can appreciate that some of you don't get that because you don't drive it that often (IE daily, relying on it daily as your only means of transport) or you have a great local cruiser guru mechanic or you have the time to do everything yourself to your standards or you have a great local dealership who takes care of you. As I understand IY's original post though, this thread is about the frustration of owning the vehicle and depending on general Toyota service, or your own average amount of time you can devote to staying on top of problems, and it that regard it can be incredibly frustrating to own an 80. I will say again I don't regret owning it, I don't regret maintaining it, and I don't plan on selling it. I just find it super annoying that so far owning an 80 series means once a year I have to deal with a catastrophe despite my best (and I think reasonable) efforts to keep it in sound working order.


knorrena may have had the best and most level headed reply to this thread so far...

[mikedamageinc]

Originally Posted by IronYuppy

My neighbour has a 2004 Disco which has never, ever failed him. Just sayin'.

/rant

I understand what you are sayaing too, with my oil leaks, list of minor issues to fix, list of mods to complete, etc it seems my cruiser will never be finished and running into all the domestics that think bigger is better and not having the patience to explain why thats not always the case can be frustrating.

Anyways the Disco comparison is apples to oranges I think, it's newer than your 80, how does it get wheeled? What mods are done? How much is it driven?

[NerdNoise]

Originally Posted by knorrena

I seem to recall that you have had, and clearly continue to have, issues with this truck. I dont see anything wrong with you getting rid of it. Cruisers, like all things in life, subscribe to the laws of probability: some seem to last forever, and some dont. If its making you unhappy move on.

Bingo! You cannot fight the math and win. Some cars will be a pain in the A$$ no matter what. I would sell it, buy a POS Geo and take your time to find a new rig that is exactly what you want. I live in Utah and I spent 6 mos. looking for the perfect rig. I looked all the way from San Diego to Montana and I ended up buying one 4 blocks from my house. Go figure. The thing is perfect though. I paid $500 over budget but have no regrets.

It's a fine line you walk when selling a vehicle between selling the thing with full disclosure and scaring the dude away. Do the best you can.

Good luck!

[ChaseTruck]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

... in my experience the design of at least some of the 80 series does not reflect well on it's long term reliability given accepted and traditional maintenance procedures ....

Nate, just get a front Dana 60 and be done with it. You can even get one with Longfields if you feel like it.

By the way, you should 'wheel the truck a lot more. That way, if something goes kaputt, you (a) at least had some fun, and (b) have someone/something for blaming the breakage ...

[DSRTRDR]

you forgot to mention that D60s with birfs are the shiznit

[Romer]

[QUOTE=NaterGator;4459635
I understand I'm not going to be popular for bringing this up in the 80 series forum and didn't expect popularity because of it, but I think it's pretty asinine to attack a fellow 80 owner over their observations. [/QUOTE]

I didnt see any attacks. Think your taking the replies to personally. Your presenting your views and opinions others are doing the same.

You feel you should be able to go to a Toyota dealer and get competent service and I agree with you. My opinion is that isn't reality at every dealer based on what they work on.

You have had two failures after work by a Dealer, The OPINION is either they did it wrong or didn't notice something a miss inside, again no attacks just an opinion based on the data you provided.

I thought this was a pretty civil discussion, not sure what your seeing thats "assinine". Why dont you PM me and let me know.

[RedTacoma]

I think people forgetting something.
Land Cruisers are tractors and they are build like one.
I am rebuilding my rear axle and what I have found in my driver side bearing stunned me. Clearly this things had spun like crazy , got water with probable mud in them (rust was there), inner seal leaked oil, spindle now got nice grooves and most important thing, bearing were still spinning with correct pre-load.
Bearing stayed alive like there is nothing there, despite the fact that they did not had a ounce of grease on them. There are temperature marks showing that at some point bearing races had been overheated but nothing critical.
Awesome....
But I would not expect anything else from tractor. As long as you keep it slow, you should be able to pack good bearings with mud and they should keep spinning. However, Bearings will suffer catastrophic failure if you driving 80MPH on the highway non stop, for 500 miles. I bet most of the people who have so much success with LC drive them like tractors getting pulled over for going under the speed limit.

[BrotherRob]

I bought my 80 because my "indestructable 4Runner" was falling apart. It has been, by far, the best built, most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It is, however, 12 years old, I expect to be doing some work on it. Even so, I have found that the 80 doesn't have a lot of issues when properly maintained. I would not trade it for a car payment.

As for the Disco, its 5 years old, prolly still under warranty, of course it runs good. Check back on it in 10 years.

[Radd Cruisers]

I have had almost 40 landcruisers of twenty years and by luck maybe......... I have never burnt up a bearing.

One of them almost had 600K on the clock.

You wheel your truck and sometimes go through water right? So in this case a little more maintenance is needed.

Good luck and see you on the trails soon.

Rob

[ed97fzj80]

Since this is chat already, I'll just pile in with a set of Captain Obvious statements. The 80 is not your typical road-going beast in these United States, so it has some atypical behaviors and some atypical needs to go along with them. This vehicle is not a fit for everyone's requirements, and not everyone is a fit for the vehicle's.

Some of us, and I'm in this group, drive this more because it is what we want than what we need. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does change your calculations a little bit when ownership starts to be a hassle. There's an emotional attachment to having something because you want it; that's evident in IY's and Nate's frustrations, and driving something because of "want" slides its ownership from squarely in the "necessities" category over into "hobby" territory. When a hobby gets too expensive to maintain, whether the expense is in time or money or energy or whatever, most people let it go.

[retrofive]

Originally Posted by ed97fzj80

Since this is chat already, I'll just pile in with a set of Captain Obvious statements. The 80 is not your typical road-going beast in these United States, so it has some atypical behaviors and some atypical needs to go along with them. This vehicle is not a fit for everyone's requirements, and not everyone is a fit for the vehicle's.

Some of us, and I'm in this group, drive this more because it is what we want than what we need. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does change your calculations a little bit when ownership starts to be a hassle. There's an emotional attachment to having something because you want it; that's evident in IY's and Nate's frustrations, and driving something because of "want" slides its ownership from squarely in the "necessities" category over into "hobby" territory. When a hobby gets too expensive to maintain, whether the expense is in time or money or energy or whatever, most people let it go.

I agree. I want my 80. Dont need my 80. The has the road trip car, (even though I convince her we need to take the 80 sometimes ).

Like most of the cars I have wanted and owned they need work, and I expect them to break. I've had good luck mine so far, but again expect to have to keep up a 15yr old car.