[akarilo]

That is going to be very nice! It's obvious that you are very detail oriented.

[gnx7]

Looks good so far. Can't wait to see the finished manifold.

[landtank]

As an update:

The first manifold ended up not fitting the truck. This is basically do to shrinkage from being welded. To get the quality welds needed the heat generated was enough to have a total shrink factor of 7%.

That's right, 7%. So in the end the engine flange was 3/16" shorter than before welding. Because the bolt holes for the T4 and Tial flanges were drilled and tapped pre assembly nothing would screw in the holes because they had shrunk also.

From this experience I think this is evidence of why so many home made manifolds fail.

If the manifold still fits the head after welding you probably have poor penetration. And while the manifold didn't shrink during manufacturing it probably will during running. Cycling the manifold from ambient up to 1700*+ and back constantly over time will most likely cause the same shrink issue I had and pull apart the weak welds.

I have a meeting with my guys at the end of this week to discuss this further. I'm actually glad all of this has come to light before I bolted everything to the engine. However the initial news did kind of suck.

Right now the actual install of the system won't be until next year. I need to work out the manifold details first and with the coming of winter and the truck needing to be put into service full time for business I'm holding off until spring.

I'll update with success or failure when I get it.

[concretejungle]

Rick, they may be doing this now, but.... do they have the manifold bolted to a jig while they weld it? Just thinking that maybe if it's bolted up to a jig simulating the head of the fz, then perhaps that would help hold it's shape.

[Sc0-]

From dealing with a few custom turbo headers on rotary engines, the flange is bolted to an actual head or fixture during the welding. (Sometimes these fixtures mimic the engine compartment by having extensions setting the limits so custom tubes don't end up interfering with something when it is bolted to the engine. When welding you also preheat the parts to minimize distortion and shrinkage. (stainless is $$$ when it comes to seamless and mandrel bends) If things aren't too warped afterwards a die grinder and TIG then come out for mods. (flange on a 13b is much smaller than a 1fz)

I like the internal wastegated turbo's due to the simpler exhaust routing, and in most cases it saves weight and space. Where is the external wastegate plumbed in at on this manifold?

As for the ECM, I would think their would be many options due to the 2jz bolt-on crowd? Who had that 1000hp Toyota crown with the turbo 1fz? Then again the aftermarket has "MegaSquirt" ECU's and direct spark ignitions but it's not for the faint hearted and even I cringe when thinking about doing a TLC.

[landtank]

Yes the flange was clamped in place. I personally think controlling the shrinkage is the wrong approach. If it doesn't happen during welding it will most likely happen afterwards during operation. We need to compensate for the shrinkage so the final part is the correct size. From what I'm told the bar stock is cold rolled and the biggest offender.

We've already laid out a plan to do so during manufacturing and am doing some testing to confirm that it will work.

As far as price goes, just the elbows, Tees and laser cut flanges were more than $400.00.

[fj80psi]

Rick- I'm at a loss for words.... You'll get it right.

[Dusty]

Bummer friend

I didn't tack my manifold together in one completion like yours was done. I completely welded each weld el to the manifold flange and to oneanother ONE AT A TIME. as suggested by corky bell. helps to minimize tension and expansion because you can trim the weld els to fit as you go.

Dont weld the t4 flange to the log untill the log is all welded up. Tap the flange very last or just drill your holes all the way through and use a bolt with a nut. the exhaust studs and nuts work great

The original bolt holes I made in the manifold were too small at first as planned. Only after the manifold was finished did I enlargen the holes in the direction needed after checking the fit to the head. Dont cut the flange untill the end and dont do the final enlargement/fit of the bolt holes till the flange is cut. do this last

the flange starts with round holes that are too small to fit the larger ovals of the head exhaust ports. after the log is welded up you just put the gasket on the flange and match port the enlarging flange holes as needed

Rick you are just in a state of depression right now. you know all this stuff

YOUR FABRICATION CREW SCREWED UP. 3/16"!!! no excuse for that. tell them to start over and slow down. Log manifolds are built all the time by fabricators. the issue is will they hold up or not. the issue is never will they fit when completed

of course I say all this and my cracked manifold is sitting on the floor of my shop mocking me.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Dusty

Bummer friend

I didn't tack my manifold together in one completion like yours was done. I completely welded each weld el to the manifold flange and to oneanother ONE AT A TIME. as suggested by corky bell. helps to minimize tension and expansion because you can trim the weld els to fit as you go.

Dont weld the t4 flange to the log untill the log is all welded up. Tap the flange very last or just drill your holes all the way through and use a bolt with a nut. the exhaust studs and nuts work great

The original bolt holes I made in the manifold were too small at first as planned. Only after the manifold was finished did I enlargen the holes in the direction needed after checking the fit to the head. Dont cut the flange untill the end and dont do the final enlargement/fit of the bolt holes till the flange is cut. do this last

the flange starts with round holes that are too small to fit the larger ovals of the head exhaust ports. after the log is welded up you just put the gasket on the flange and match port the enlarging flange holes as needed

Rick you are just in a state of depression right now. you know all this stuff

YOUR FABRICATION CREW SCREWED UP. 3/16"!!! no excuse for that. tell them to start over and slow down. Log manifolds are built all the time by fabricators. the issue is will they hold up or not. the issue is never will they fit when completed

of course I say all this and my cracked manifold is sitting on the floor of my shop mocking me.

Pretty much figured all that stuff out. The manifold needs to be built in sections and then each section needs to be trimmed to fit so as to compensate for any shrinkage from the first weld. To fix this manifold it's really quite simple. The section with the T4 needs to be rebuild separately and then the rest welded on to it. It might not make sense but you need to understand how the thing is broken up. We are now working with a 4 section unit. First section is cylinder 1, 2nd section is cylinders 2+3, 3rd section is 4+5 and the 4th section is cylinder 6. Both the T4 and Tial flange is located in section 3. So building that section with a little stretch in both directions will solve 3/4s of the issue and then we need to adapt cylinder one to the rest.

I had a 5 hour ride this morning to my first call and had time to get some perspective on the job. Just got to roll with it right now.

[Dusty]

could it be salvaged?
do 2 of the 3 sections line up?

if the issue was too long a manifold the fix would be simpler

could you just keep the 2 outermost sections and redoo the center?

dont give up on the manifold yet. sit down with your crew and brainstorm.

if you are giving up I want it

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Dusty

could it be salvaged?
do 2 of the 3 sections line up?

if the issue was too long a manifold the fix would be simpler

could you just keep the 2 outermost sections and redoo the center?

dont give up on the manifold yet. sit down with your crew and brainstorm.

if you are giving up I want it

We're meeting again later on this week. They indicated that they have a solution and I'm sure it is along the lines I indicated above. My explanation above probably doesn't make much sense with out a diagram but reworking a single 2 cylinder section puts the manifold back into a usable shape.

We're also going to talk about making another one. My reasoning is that I want a spare. Not that I think I'll have a problem, but just want the security of having one.

[Lextreme]

Love to see some updates.... Hey Dusty... how goes it/

[richg]

Having built a turbo manifold myself out of 316SS for the Eagle Talon that I race, if you'd like any tips or input, feel free to hit me up. Here are some pics of the design and fabrication of my manifold. It is all equal length with proper pairing for a divided inlet turbine. Sorry if they are a bit out of order...

http://www.buzzsmotorsports.com/gall...&cat=-2&page=1

You shouldn't need to break it up into as many sections as you are thinking for a simple log manifold. Bolt it up to the head and turbo (with the flanges jigged together), tack it all together, set up a backpurge on it, weld up as much as possible, break off any tacks needed to fully weld up hard to reach sections, then surface the flanges if necessary and die-grind the ports for clean up.

How many passes are you trying to do this on? Was it sch10 or sch40 pipe?

rich

[Lextreme]

I wonder if the 2jz turbo header would work. Perhaps with slightly mod and use a new (1FZ) header flange might work. Best would be modify a set of 2jz twin turbo (china) and modify to fix.

[parabola]

Originally Posted by Lextreme

I wonder if the 2jz turbo header would work. Perhaps with slightly mod and use a new (1FZ) header flange might work. Best would be modify a set of 2jz twin turbo (china) and modify to fix.

The stock manifold would not be appropriate as it has two exhaust outputs (for the twin turbos). An aftermarket manifold, OTOH, may be something that could be modified, although I would imagine that the sizes may be significantly different.

Anyone have some relevant measurements of a 1FZ head that I could compare to my 2JZ head sitting in my garage?

[landtank]

Originally Posted by richg

Having built a turbo manifold myself out of 316SS for the Eagle Talon that I race, if you'd like any tips or input, feel free to hit me up. Here are some pics of the design and fabrication of my manifold. It is all equal length with proper pairing for a divided inlet turbine. Sorry if they are a bit out of order...

http://www.buzzsmotorsports.com/gall...&cat=-2&page=1

You shouldn't need to break it up into as many sections as you are thinking for a simple log manifold. Bolt it up to the head and turbo (with the flanges jigged together), tack it all together, set up a backpurge on it, weld up as much as possible, break off any tacks needed to fully weld up hard to reach sections, then surface the flanges if necessary and die-grind the ports for clean up.

How many passes are you trying to do this on? Was it sch10 or sch40 pipe?

rich

Thanks Rich. I'm meeting with them tomorrow and we should be back on track after that. The sectioning helps not only with expansion but manufacturing. After running the expansion numbers on the manifold it could grow about .20" over that of the head from heat expansion. These are very long heads, more so that just a 4 cylinder.

[richg]

Originally Posted by landtank

Thanks Rich. I'm meeting with them tomorrow and we should be back on track after that. The sectioning helps not only with expansion but manufacturing. After running the expansion numbers on the manifold it could grow about .20" over that of the head from heat expansion. These are very long heads, more so that just a 4 cylinder.

Maybe I'm confused as to what you mean. Are you building the manifold with a multiple split cylinder head flange to try to alleviate the thermal expansion problems while driving? Or are you just saying you're going to build it in sections to easier account for the distortion during welding?

rich

[concretejungle]

rich, really i should let rick answer this, but i think the answer is yes to both, but mainly construction.

[landtank]

Both. It would be more clear if you saw the T4 and wastegate flanges laid out.

[Rookie2]

Do you have a feel for what the amount of expansion of the head is? Curious what you anticipate for the differential expansion between the head and manifold, or are you just treating it as the head doesn't move and building the full calculated expansion of the manifold into the attachment?


Rookie2

[landtank]

I took the expansion rate of aluminum x 200* x length to calculate it's total expansion and then calculated SS x 1500* x length to get that total expansion and then subtracted the two.

The manifold exceeds the head by .20" total. But since those temps will be out in the main runner and not at the flange I ended up cutting the flange in 4 pieces so the expansion radiates out from the center of the head and cylinders 1 and 6 are separate from the rest.

Just my best guess for now.

[landtank]

I just got back from our meeting and it went very well. Now that my head was a little clearer you could see that all but the section for cylinders 4&5 was alright and easily reused.

They are going to right off most of the labor at this point as a learning experience and we'll be moving forward.

When done it will not be any different then if it was made that way the first time around.

I'll update as things move along

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by parabola

The stock manifold would not be appropriate as it has two exhaust outputs (for the twin turbos). An aftermarket manifold, OTOH, may be something that could be modified, although I would imagine that the sizes may be significantly different.

Anyone have some relevant measurements of a 1FZ head that I could compare to my 2JZ head sitting in my garage?

I already played with this idea. the diff in length between exhaust port 1 and 6 on the 2 motors is over 1 inch. so each runner would need to a new position on the flange. Probably considerably easier to modify the 2jz than start from scratch. Especially considering how cheap and plentiful are the 2jz manifolds.

Keep it going Rick

I have my rebuilt head back on and will hopefully will get to start on the modified downpipe this weekend. The turbonetics manifold seems ok but Ricks inverted turbo design is the way to go

[richg]

I don't think the expansion differential is as large as you are calculating. For one, the aluminum cylinder at the exhaust ports is going to be quite higher than 200F, and the manifold temperature is going to be a good bit lower than 1500F. Measurements I've seen for aluminum cylinder head temps range in the 400F range near the exhaust flange. And while EGT's on hard runs at high boost levels do get up close to 1600-1700F, the majority of the time under cruise conditions they are around 1200F, with the manifold being a good bit lower in temperature (closer to 800-1000 range). Under cruise is where the manifold normally reaches its max operating temp as it is a sustained high temp to soak the manifold.

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but the linear thermal expansion of that log style manifold is going to be driven by the main log. Split flanges or not, you're going to have the same linear expansion across the cylinder head surface because the log is all welded solid. The split flanges are definitely nice for cylinder sealing and do make it easier for fabrication, but I don't see them helping for the linear expansion.

What schedule pipes are being used? How many passes? Are they backpurging?

rich

[LX_TREME]

Rick, make something like these

[landtank]

If I calculated the differential higher than actual I don't think that is a problem. One of our members has a EGT on his stock truck and sees EGTs over 1200*, I have to believe boosted they are higher. I'm using Schedule 40 and the welding is being done by a professional.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by LX_TREME

Rick, make something like these

No thanks and from what I've read they are a complete waste on a low boosted truck like what I'm doing.

[landtank]

I thought that I would update this thread. It's been almost a year and it looks like a working manifold is in the near future. The first one was, well the first one. It wasn't something I wanted on my truck so we went back to the drawing board so to speak and did some redesigning. I was able to salvage some of it so it wasn't a total loss.

I thought I'd post a drawing showing the current design and what i should have in my hands in a few weeks.

[Rookie2]

Come up with any good ideas for dealing with the expansion issue and fatiguing of the welds?

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Rookie2

Come up with any good ideas for dealing with the expansion issue and fatiguing of the welds?

Expansion was dealt with by sectioning the flange, spacing of exhaust inlets and elongating the mounting holes.

As far as weld fatigue, it is being made from 304 which is the common material of choice. The manifold will be braced in two places to the head and with the location of the turbo being just behind the right side motor mount torque issues will be at their minimum.

Anyone who has designed stuff will tell you it's all about compromise. It's a balancing act where hopefully the areas that you need to compromise the most in doesn't adversely effect the performance on a whole. If money was no object this wouldn't be the manifold I'd build.

This is the best that I could come up with and only installing it and running it will bring any short comings to light.