[e9999]

OK, there have been several threads on how to fill good nutserts with finish washers or rosettes or whatever they are called. Good way to handle the good nutserts from the outside...

But now, what about plain holes? I have access to the underside of the roof (yea!) and will end up with some removed nutserts. What's the best way to do these holes? Of course, I could put new nutserts back in if I can find a tool. But is there a better approach? A round head stainless steel bolt over a rubber washer on the outside with a lock nut on the inside? I'd rather not take the headliner off again so it has to be secure, and the rubber gasket if any better not shrink or crack in a couple of years...
Rivets?
Metal screw from the outside?
Anchor?

what?

E

[Rich]

Take it to a body man and get the holes welded up, ground flush, and repainted.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Rich

Take it to a body man and get the holes welded up, ground flush, and repainted.

whoah!
that sounds a bit drastic. Permanent, sure, but that's gotta be expensive, no?
Are you a perfectionist or do you think the bolt and washer solution is not durable enough?

E

[e9999]

If I do go the bolt way, how about gluing the nut on the roof underside, that way I could maybe retighten things later as necessary? That possible? What kind of glue?

Or some sort of teethed washer/nut?

E

[RavenTai]

Welded/painted would be the best solution but was above my budget

I put in low profile head 1/4 fasteners with fender washers and nuts, installed wet with sealer, on the front row try to keep the length below 3/4" as to clear the sunroof glass as it travels underneath rear is less of a concern

Just had a thought, wonder if you could get to the front row by removing the glass portion of the sunroof and reaching in between the roof and headliner front the front? Would be a lot easier than removing the headliner and sunroof pan like I did

[Riley]

Since you have the headliner off, I'd at least go talk to a good body shop about welding metal over the holes and grinding and painting. What can it hurt to ask?

On my 60 I had some rust around the roof rack (surprise surprise). My rust doctor said it would be pretty easy to fix if we took off the headliner (but that was too much hassle). So I just left the rust there and sold it a year later.

Point is that I think the bodyshop guys need to get at the back side (for some reason I don't understand now) and since it's open now, you should at least consult a good bodyman. Also you will be able to get around to the back of the weld and clean the flux off and POR-15 it too. I guess that's why he wanted access but I can't recall.

Otherwise I'd just use nutserts and the stainless hardware.

[Rich]

Regarding welding & repainting, aren't you already on the hook for rust removal and repainting? I'd be surprised if the welding alone would cost all that much. Drive it by a couple of body shops. Estimates are free.

My goal would be to ensure that whatever repair is done is the very last work required for the problem.

[e9999]

all good point guys, I may go to a body shop and ask but if it's too much $ I'm back to bolts and stuff...
E

[e9999]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

Welded/painted would be the best solution but was above my budget

I put in low profile head 1/4 fasteners with fender washers and nuts, installed wet with sealer, on the front row try to keep the length below 3/4" as to clear the sunroof glass as it travels underneath rear is less of a concern

Just had a thought, wonder if you could get to the front row by removing the glass portion of the sunroof and reaching in between the roof and headliner front the front? Would be a lot easier than removing the headliner and sunroof pan like I did

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that I may be able to remove the last screw on the front corners. It's frozen but the 'sert is not spinning yet on that one. I may go gingerly with Kroil again etc and see if it will unfreeze. If it starts spinning I'm on the hook for the pan or perhaps with your suggestion. How long would it take to remove the sunroof pan?

RT, you didn't use rubber washers then? just sealer?

E

[IdahoDoug]

I don't know what size holes you're talking about, but at some of the big box hardware stores (Home Despot, etc), they sell various sizes of plastic plugs. I've used some on vehicle bodies before. In fact, I used touch up paint on the plugs so when I installed them you couldn't see them from, oh 30 feet (heh). But I held them in with silicone and they were fine for years (get the silicone that won't promote rust when in contact with metal), yet I could pry them out to reinstall the items I removed. This was a set of running boards and integrated mudflaps. Worked well and for your app the nice part is you only need access the outside of the roof for future maintanance (resealing it, etc). Because who knows - you might one day want to use a couple of those holes for adding roof lights like mine, or if you got a roof tent that has power outlets and reading lights.

On my 80, I also have a bracket screwed directly to the roof with four stainless screws. I've again used silicone to seal them with no leaks. At the 10 year mark, I pulled the bracket off just out of curiousity and resealed them for another 10 years. Worked a treat.

DougM

[e9999]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

I don't know what size holes you're talking about, but at some of the big box hardware stores (Home Despot, etc), they sell various sizes of plastic plugs. I've used some on vehicle bodies before. In fact, I used touch up paint on the plugs so when I installed them you couldn't see them from, oh 30 feet (heh). But I held them in with silicone and they were fine for years (get the silicone that won't promote rust when in contact with metal), yet I could pry them out to reinstall the items I removed. This was a set of running boards and integrated mudflaps. Worked well and for your app the nice part is you only need access the outside of the roof for future maintanance (resealing it, etc). Because who knows - you might one day want to use a couple of those holes for adding roof lights like mine, or if you got a roof tent that has power outlets and reading lights.

On my 80, I also have a bracket screwed directly to the roof with four stainless screws. I've again used silicone to seal them with no leaks. At the 10 year mark, I pulled the bracket off just out of curiousity and resealed them for another 10 years. Worked a treat.

DougM

hmm.... interesting notion. Hole is probably 1/4" or so. Do they have stainless metal screws that big? Might distort the roof though.
I did investigate HD and similar stores once for plastic plugs and did not see anything that looked close to suitable for waterproof hole plugging. Must be the silicone that worked for you then? Plastic plugs in the roof seem a little flimsy though. Might pop off if you get raked by branches and stuff?

oh, and what's that about rust-inducing silicone?

E

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

oh, and what's that about rust-inducing silicone?

E

yes interested in that also

after the nusert comes out the holes are somewhere between 1/4" and 5/16", I used 1/4" fasteners

nope no rubber washers just sealer

[CDN_Cruiser]

Having the headliner out is a requirement to do any welding job (IIRC the shops billed the removal and install as 3hrs using whatever quoting system body shops use) - so, it's worth the ask. I would guess something in the $500+ range to do the job...

One thing to consider is marine bedding compound that is used to waterproof many fasteners - you just need to find one that works on steel.

Cheers, Hugh

[cruiserdan]

To take the vehicle to the shop and have the headliner R&Red and the holes welded and the roof re-finished will be well over 1000 dollars. Likely close to 1500

[Scamper]

E-

Since you already have the headliner out, can't you just put some fiberglass matt on the inside of the roof, then fill from above with filler? Not going to be super strong, but it will be cosmetically good and the matt doesn't take up any significant space.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

Welded/painted would be the best solution but was above my budget

I put in low profile head 1/4 fasteners with fender washers and nuts, installed wet with sealer, on the front row try to keep the length below 3/4" as to clear the sunroof glass as it travels underneath rear is less of a concern

Just had a thought, wonder if you could get to the front row by removing the glass portion of the sunroof and reaching in between the roof and headliner front the front? Would be a lot easier than removing the headliner and sunroof pan like I did

I already have the headliner off. How long would it take to remove the sunroof pan? The glass?

E

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Scamper

E-

Since you already have the headliner out, can't you just put some fiberglass matt on the inside of the roof, then fill from above with filler? Not going to be super strong, but it will be cosmetically good and the matt doesn't take up any significant space.

Tom, that is true. Would good material adhere strongly enough to last many years? (Roof can get hot in the desert, could also flex?)

E

[RavenTai]

the galss of the roof is not bad, two trim strips, 6 nuts, amke sure you note where the shims are for reinstalition, see the FSM for details

the pan is a bit more work

[e9999]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

the galss of the roof is not bad, two trim strips, 6 nuts, amke sure you note where the shims are for reinstalition, see the FSM for details

the pan is a bit more work

OK, thanks. Did look at the FSM. The pan/housing does look like a bigger job indeed. What are we talking about there? 2 or 3 hours? Any risk of misalignment or damage? I may avoid having to do that (see nutsert thread). I hope...


E

[e9999]

well, the more I think about this job, the more I'd like to do something that involves only the outside (nutsert, anchors, plugs, something...)
I don't think I want to take this headliner ever again. It was scary to move this thing around, I tell you, after CDan quoted $1,300 for it...

E

[Scamper]

Originally Posted by e9999

Would good material adhere strongly enough to last many years? (Roof can get hot in the desert, could also flex?)

E

If you do a good job of prepping the surface, the glass will hold very well. You'd probably have to grind it off if you wanted to remove it. The flex is also another consideration. Since the roof itself tends to flex, you would want the patch to be able to flex too...at least to some degree. A welded patch would be the best fix I think, but the glass matt would be second best I think. It also would be easy for a DIY job if you didn't have the welding equipment. Either repair will require filler and paint.

Not sure how I would do it myself...the beauty of the nut/washer technique is it's simplicty and low cost. The beauty of the patch technique is that it's permanent and returns the truck to stock appearace.

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

OK, thanks. Did look at the FSM. The pan/housing does look like a bigger job indeed. What are we talking about there? 2 or 3 hours? Any risk of misalignment or damage? I may avoid having to do that (see nutsert thread). I hope...


E

Taking out the pan you need at least a 2 man job, there is a slight risk of damage but less likely than the headliner, biggest danger spot is when it comes out you have to fish the drive tubes around obstructions, I pulled the headliner and prepped for removing the sunroof pan on a Saturday, Sunday I removed the glass and pan filled the holes and reinstalled both the pan and headliner, It was close to midnight Sunday when I was done but I have a tendency to get side tracked (oh, wile I am here….) while working

One note, the roof is not very visible, it will be even less so after lift, as long as you roughly match the color and reflectiveness it will not be noticed by anybody, even with protruding fasteners when they are rattle cann’ed they disappear

I know it is hokey but it is a working inexpensive permanent fix that stops the rust, I guess I am the cheap skate of the 80’s forum

[IdahoDoug]

The plugs were extremely low profile - no way anything's going to hook them. Imagine rivet heads. The edges were feathered so there's nothing to hook. They had a clip on the barrel so when inserted they snapped in and held themselves in - loosely though. I bedded them with silicone after painting them body color and had a half dozen of them down around the fairly harsh environment behind all 4 wheelwells for 4 years and 45,000 miles uneventfully. Think chunks of frozen slush hanging there, debris getting tossed against them, etc. Not a movement. When I pried them out, I destroyed them with pliers but it was because I put all the trim back on to sell, so no big deal. Use a special plastic primer on them before painting if you want them to last - available at professional body paint supply houses.

I got them at Eagle before they were bought by Lowes. They were in the small bits trays along with those anti skid cushions for furniture, rubber corks, etc. Not prepackaged, but in the little bins where you put your chosen items in little baggies, etc. I'd MUCH rather do this than screw around with all the other methods. HTH.

DougM

[e9999]

Doug, I went looking at Home Depot for these things, but they didn't have them.
Will try Lowes if I can find one.

All,
I looked at a bunch of hardware at HD but nothing seems to be very good. The Nutserts or the plugs may be the best way to go it seems.

I found some neoprene and nylon washers as well as SS Allen head round bolts but then I have to secure them from the inside of course, and I'm concerned about the washer settling with time.

Any idea which would be the best washer:
- Nylon, hard and thin, not as good a seal but will last longer?
- Neoprene, soft and thicker, probably seals better but may not last?

Or do like RT, no washer, just sealer?

thx
E

[e9999]

Originally Posted by RavenTai

Taking out the pan you need at least a 2 man job, there is a slight risk of damage but less likely than the headliner, biggest danger spot is when it comes out you have to fish the drive tubes around obstructions, I pulled the headliner and prepped for removing the sunroof pan on a Saturday, Sunday I removed the glass and pan filled the holes and reinstalled both the pan and headliner, It was close to midnight Sunday when I was done but I have a tendency to get side tracked (oh, wile I am here….) while working

One note, the roof is not very visible, it will be even less so after lift, as long as you roughly match the color and reflectiveness it will not be noticed by anybody, even with protruding fasteners when they are rattle cann’ed they disappear

I know it is hokey but it is a working inexpensive permanent fix that stops the rust, I guess I am the cheap skate of the 80’s forum

Yes, the roof is not that critical. I may repaint myself.

Man, this sunroof job looks like a mess also... Hope I don't have to do it.


This whole rack thing is more of a job than the Birfs, timewise, I bet...



E

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

This whole rack thing is more of a job than the Birfs, timewise, I bet...



E

It did take me more time to do the roof rack than it did the birf's, If I had started in the right direction it maigh have been about the same

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

Any idea which would be the best washer:
- Nylon, hard and thin, not as good a seal but will last longer?
- Neoprene, soft and thicker, probably seals better but may not last?

Or do like RT, no washer, just sealer?

thx
E

if you are going to use sealing washers use the rubber ( Neoprene ), nylon will not seal leading to more rust, the rubber will last just fine here,

[e9999]

thanks RT.

But guys, I think I found the perfect solution to the problem. Buy *RUBBER* rivet nuts / nut inserts / well nuts (all same thing). Beauty of it is that it goes all in from the outside. It's rubber with a nut insert. You put it in from the outside, tighten it, it expands and clamps the hole shut. Waterproofing it at the same time. The beauty is that it's easily removable from the outside. And even if it eventually breaks down, should only take 10 mins to replace them all. Won't damage the new paint either. Only drawbacks I can see are that the stress and sharp edges may degrade them in a matter of a few years maybe, and also that they have no serious weight holding power, but that matters little if I don't put the rack back on. And if I want to, it'd be a simple matter to put metal rivnuts back in. No special tool needed either. I may just chamfer the underside of the hole a bit to help with tears.

Check McMaster.com catalog p. 3072 under "rubber-insulated riv nuts".


YEA!

comments?

E

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

I think I found the perfect solution to the problem. Buy *RUBBER* rivet nuts / nut inserts / well nuts (all same thing). Beauty of it is that it goes all in from the outside. It's rubber with a nut insert. You put it in from the outside, tighten it, it expands and clamps the hole shut. Waterproofing it at the same time. The beauty is that it's easily removable from the outside. And even if it eventually breaks down, should only take 10 mins to replace them all. Won't damage the new paint either. Only drawbacks I can see are that the stress and sharp edges may degrade them in a matter of a few years maybe, and also that they have no serious weight holding power, but that matters little if I don't put the rack back on. And if I want to, it'd be a simple matter to put metal rivnuts back in. No special tool needed either. I may just chamfer the underside of the hole a bit to help with tears.

Check McMaster.com catalog p. 3072 under "rubber-insulated riv nuts".


YEA!

comments?

E

only possible problem with those I see is that they are quite a bit larger than the stock ones, you could step the screw size down to 6-32 and it woudl fit, not sure what kind of screw and washer options you will have in that size

[e9999]

Went to have a body shop look at the holes and tell me how much to weld and paint.
Guy took one look and said he can't do that at his shop (one of the best in town).
Scared to touch it I think.
Asked him how much to paint roof: $1000. Doesn't do touch up either, all or nothing...
sheesh....


love my rubber rivnut idea more by the minute!

E