Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!)

[e9999]

Originally Posted by AKcruiserfreak

My boss just made his own hydrogen generator out of a kit on the internet, and for such a hokey-looking thing, It does produce hydrogen gas. We filled a water bottle with the gas and it blew 20ft+ into the air. Hooking it up to his Subaru is the next step. I have to say there is a little more to this than snake oil. Time will tell whether it works or not.

TK

sigh.... it is very easy to make Hydrogen out of water by electrolysis... only little problem is that it takes more energy to do it than you get out as hydrogen fuel... So much for increasing the mileage...

Basic laws of Thermodynamics, people...!



Oh, and Convert, she's talking to you! She says... "You want to do what?" "Make free energy out of nothing...?" tsk tsk...

[AKcruiserfreak]

Well,
Like I said, "time will tell". You can't just bash people for trying something different. I think $1000+$1000 for an install is crazy, but if my boss' homemade kit works in the slightest, I'll be alot less skeptical. BTW: his draws 15amps and produces enough gas to displace 1 liter of water in a water bottle in one minute. If anything, it's fun trying to find stuff to blow up with hydrogen.

Originally Posted by e9999

sigh.... it is very easy to make Hydrogen out of water by electrolysis... only little problem is that it takes more energy to do it than you get out as hydrogen fuel... So much for increasing the mileage...

Basic laws of Thermodynamics, people...!



Oh, and Convert, she's talking to you! She says... "You want to do what?" "Make free energy out of nothing...?" tsk tsk...

[Ruadhrigh]

Originally Posted by AKcruiserfreak

If anything, it's fun trying to find stuff to blow up with hydrogen.

Like a 1FZFE!

[AKcruiserfreak]

Exactly!!

Originally Posted by Ruadhrigh

Like a 1FZFE!

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Brian894X4

Sounds like the additive might just be some kind of octane booster. Do they list the main ingredient? Something like tetra-ethyl lead or MTBE. That might where they are getting the "lubricating" the engine thing from too.

They are somewhat evasive on the contents of the additive.

In some places they have said: 1/3 Acetone and 1/3 Xylene The other 1/3 Dennis Lee says on the video is something they are experimenting with and they have been using something with Platinum in it. They call it the "conditioner."

Since Feb '08, they are calling the additive a "covalizer" and say that it does not contain acetone and xylene or tolulene. The only clue to the contents are that it is hydrocarbon based and developed by a fossil fuels expert. A 16oz bottle covalizes 400 gal of petrol.

The 50% improvement warranty is provided by the seller/dealer, "it is not provided by the manufacturer." (quote directly from the warrantee). You have 2 weeks to return the kit to the dealer for the refund. After the 2 weeks, the 50% fuel improvement warrantee is void. The kit must be installed temporarily (no drilling, no welding) and returned in a resalable condition.

Warranty and installation instructions here:
http://installersupport.info/InstallInstructDFCRev.pdf

Web site with install:
View video

Interesting 30-minute video where you can hear Dennis Merle Lee explain a lot about this product.

http://dutman.vo.llnwd.net/o15/hafcwin/winhafchi.wmv

-B-

[concretejungle]

"water-gas has more calories per mole of gasoline.." WTF?

[Ebag333]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

no E-bag go e-whore yourself somewhwere else. I guess its oil companies.

Yup. THAT'S the way to convince me that this is gonna work.

It's your dime, so if you see improvement, great and good for you. I am highly skeptical of the whole thing based on my research and having actual knowledge of how some basic science works (didn't Dennis Lee drop out of high school?). But then again (as I pointed out in a previous post) if you'd told me you could extract hydrogen from seawater with a radio, I woulda called you crazy.

If you really want serious talk and consideration on this, personal attacks are not the way to go.

Originally Posted by concretejungle

"water-gas has more calories per mole of gasoline.." WTF?

Read over some of Dennis Lee's other "scientific" inventions. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry over his mangling of basic science, physics, and mathmatics. The absolutely amazing thing is that people believe it.

I'm just glad I live in a state where he's legally not allowed to try and sell any of his "free energy" machines (which, incidentally this is, since he's stating that you get more energy out of it then what you put in, with his "water gas" and all).

[concretejungle]

OK, we are acting like a bunch of witch hunters!!

I say we sit back, let him spend his money and time and see what kind of results he gets.

[Hugh Heifer]

So does the airplane fly or not?

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Hugh Heifer

So does the airplane fly or not?

Allocate the 30-minutes and watch the video. Everything you need to know is revealed. They have put together a complex system where each component is supposed to work together. It really is very interesting.

HACF Explanation - Video

-B-

[fzjconvert]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Allocate the 30-minutes and watch the video. Everything you need to know is revealed. They have put together a complex system where each component is supposed to work together. It really is very interesting.

HACF Explanation - Video

-B-

Yes! It is interesting... That is why I am going to let this run its course and reserve judgment until we see the results from another mud'er. Frankly, I have no reason to dought SS. Because in our few conversations he has done everything exactly like he said. That is - As soon as he had the money, he was going to buy the kit himself, install it on his own truck and report back the results to us. The other thing is that he has been very up front about his skill level and knowledge. Nor has has he tried to sell anything. So I really don't get all the ribbing that he is getting. I mean there is no money out of anyones pocket but his. To that end, I hope he has a good result. It would be very cool!

[Cruiser Jimmy]

Just saw the video.

So what's the patent number(s) held for the sub-systems or system?

And exactly how does the optimizer decrease the fuel input to the engine?
The optimizer: works with ANY automotive computer. REALLY, Japanese, America, Italian, French, Australian, Indian, Korean, Russian programing language with work with the optimizer? Now that's some super-fuzzy logic.

With all this HHO talk, I really can't wait to see the results. Otherwise I felt like I've been drawn into a gay polygamist camp.

Until then, I say pseudo-science.

Good luck dude.

[fzjconvert]

Originally Posted by Cruiser Jimmy

Just saw the video.

Otherwise I felt like I've been drawn into a gay polygamist camp.

Until then, I say pseudo-science.

Good luck dude.

That really made me LMAO

[Bogo]

Originally Posted by jonheld

The kicker for me is this statement, "Power actually increases! I have no idea how much but seat of the pants its noticeable. The higher ups at the company had mentioned around 20% more power and many people getting interested for performance aspects only but I have no proof of anything.”

So we’re now putting out 255HP and getting 35MPG. Somewhere along the road we have forgotten the law of conservation of energy.

Something to think about before making statements like that. Very few internal combustion engines get more than 40% of the energy in the fuel out as power to the wheels. Catalytic converters are there to burn the unburnt fuel that escapes in the exhaust. Adding in a supply of Oxygen to the air intake will boost the burn efficiency of any engine. That 33% Oxygen / 66% Hydrogen gas mix is displacing 20% Oxygen / 80% Nitrogen mix and to top it off the filler gas, hydrogen, is combustible. As for the power to catalyze the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. There are catalysts that lower the amount of electrical energy needed to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Having said all of that I do know of one guy with a turbo diesel Sprinter using one of these contraptions. The slower he is going the more boost in economy he sees. Now this can easily be explained by the unit having a set output that does not change with engine air intake volume. He only sees a 10 to 15% improvement in fuel economy on the highway. In town it can be as much as 40%.

As for the water you put into them. Only use distilled water as plain water will have minerals and chemicals that can poison the cell and render it useless.

[hadji_85]

good luck, i'm glad someone is doing it and posting it.

[psfpilot]

While I am skeptical of the claims of 50% fuel mileage increases, I understand that piston engine airplanes are regularly run in a lean of peak EGT condition at cruise for the purpose of increased efficiency (no unburned fuel being used to cool the engine as is done in typical rich of peak operation). I suppose that a piggyback computer that induces lean of peak operation in an automobile could in theory cause measurable mileage increases. However, aircraft that are run at lean of peak typically utilize individual cylinder head temperature probes to ensure that one of the cylinders is not running so warm as to damage a valve. I would be leery of installing such a device on my own vehicle without an iron-clad warranty against damage.

Megginson Technologies: Land and Hold Short » Blog Archive » Leaning the Mixture

[WildHare]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Warranty and installation instructions here:
http://installersupport.info/InstallInstructDFCRev.pdf

Web site with install:
View video

Interesting 30-minute video where you can hear Dennis Merle Lee explain a lot about this product.

http://dutman.vo.llnwd.net/o15/hafcwin/winhafchi.wmv

-B-

I watched portions of the videos and was very disappointed in some of the misstatements he made.

He explains how he makes "water gas"... it's simply electrolysis, using electricity to separate water into it's constituent elements, hydrogen and oxygen.

Explanation of electrolysis:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, the process of generating hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis and then burning it for energy LOOSES energy. Ie: you get less energy out of burning gases generated through electrolosys than you would just using the energy directly. As that electricity comes from burning fuel in your engine, you're just wasting energy to produce the "water gas".

For efficiency of electrolysis:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He appears to offer an additive to put in the "fuel cell", ostensibly to improve it's efficiency. This substance is probably a salt, as ionizing water improves the rate of electrolysis.

His claims of that the flame is cool are a highly suspect. He melts a sheet of copper using a "water gas" flame. Copper's melting point is almost 2000 degrees:
Copper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, the flame must be at least 2000 degrees. Fortunately for him, the sheet is very thin, and melts quickly. However, as you can see, he drops the sheet with some enthusiasm as the flame gets nearer and nearer to his hand.

"As you can see the gas is not transferring heat into my hands." (11:00).

Well, the flame is transferring heat to the metal, and the metal is transferring heat into his hand. Seems pretty straightforward to me, making his statement misleading at best.

He does the same trick with a piece of tungsten, saying of the flame, claiming "it does not transfer the heat to my fingers." Well, if that were true, he could keep holding the tungsten in his fingers indefinitely.

Now, why is he showing off that he can melt metals with his flame? That does nothing to demonstrate that his "water gas" improves the combustion efficiency of an engine. This seems to be a distraction, "smoke and mirrors".

"Water gas changes it's temperature to the melting temperature of the material that it touches". If that were true, it would melt your intake manifold into a pile of slag.

The salesman describing what happens when the gas travels into your manifold... water gas "will change it's melting temperature to the characteristics of the fuel". He seems to be mixing states of matter up here. You're mixing a gas (his "water fuel" being hydrogen and oxygen), with outside air (mostly nitrogen, some oxygen, many many other gases in small amounts), and vaporized gas. Ie: all vapor and gas. It cannot melt, it's not a solid. It can't boil, it's not a liquid. Another incorrect statement.

Now, let's look at how hydrogen and oxygen perform in an internal combustion engine. At hydrogen's stoichiometric ratio (34:1 by mass), injecting gaseous hydrogen into a combustion chamber produces only 85% the energy that gasoline does at it's stoichiometric ratio. In other words, burning only hydrogen and oxygen using his method produces less power than using gasoline. I don't see how mixing it with atomized gasoline would change it's combustion characteristics
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm03r0.pdf


Magnets ionize the fuel:
Magnets do not ionize fuel. Ionization occurs as you add electrons to a molecule through either electrical current or chemical changes.

Room temperature fuel additive "breaks down covalent bonds" in the gasoline.
Covalent bonds are between the valence electron shells of atoms. These bonds form the basis of a hydrocarbon. Making or breaking these chemical bonds either uses energy (endothermic) or creates energy (exothermic). So, pouring this substance, if it does make/break bonds, would either cool down the temperature of the liquid in the tank, or heat it up (fire?). Putting a chemical reaction into a gastank is foolish beyond belief. Also, it changes the chemical makeup of the substance. If it's another chemical, is it still gasoline?

Covalent bond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He claims that one of the ingredients of his additives is xylene. This I can believe, as xylene is a common octane booster. However, it's usually present in gasoline already. Higher grades of gasoline have greater amounts, boosting their octane, allowing the engine to run leaner.

Xylene as a fuel additive:
Gasoline Digest Page 2

Basic gasoline properties/ingredients:
Gasoline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd go on, but I'm too tired, and need to go to bed.

[Beowulf]

Nice analysis WildHare.

Originally Posted by WildHare

He appears to offer an additive to put in the "fuel cell", ostensibly to improve it's efficiency. This substance is probably a salt, as ionizing water improves the rate of electrolysis.

They are using Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) according to the installation manual.

Originally Posted by WildHare

He claims that one of the ingredients of his additives is xylene. This I can believe, as xylene is a common octane booster.

The installation instructions state they are no longer using Xylene, Tolulene, or Acetone. Reading between the lines I am guessing they had trouble shipping those chemicals. Probably some DOT regulation because the earlier instructions say to buy these chemicals locally because it is too expensive to ship them. After Feb 2008, they say the additive (covalizer) is "petroleum based" and no other information about what it contains.

-B-

[barCruiser]

He's too busy driving around getting 50mpg to post.

[PDoyle]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

That sort of booster you are putting on for your boss will only give you a power boost, a noticeable one. it should not improve your gas mileage.

FJZ convert- I REALLY appreciate the words. its getting old defending what I'm not even selling to these people. I am going to TRY to have the entire thing done by wednesday I only have an hour or 2 to work a night.

Dude, keep up the good work. If it works at all .... you'll be #*&@ing superman!