Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!)

[SS_Storm]

it worked for about 1 week, I got 19 mpg on that tank with all city driving but I cannot figure out why it is doing this it keeps destroying computers I have done through 2.

Ill take some pics of the plugs its time for me to tune up anyway.

i

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

it worked for about 1 week, I got 19 mpg on that tank with all city driving but I cannot figure out why it is doing this it keeps destroying computers I have done through 2.

Ill take some pics of the plugs its time for me to tune up anyway.

i

Is your ECU frying?

[PDoyle]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

it worked for about 1 week, I got 19 mpg on that tank with all city driving but I cannot figure out why it is doing this it keeps destroying computers I have done through 2.

Ill take some pics of the plugs its time for me to tune up anyway.

i

Dude, whilte your taking pics of the plugs, lean over the motor and get pics of that cool install. Thanks!!!

[landtank]

Safari offered a piggy back with it's turbo units that fried ECUs. Like I posted way back at the beginning, our trucks don't play well with piggy backs.

[suprathepeg]

We installed a "smack unit" on my buddies caravan and it worked great innitially netting approx. 20% increase in milage with no piggy back. The only issue he had was the unit getting too hot in his cramped engine bay, this shouldn't be an issue on a cruiser though.

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by aircraft engineer

So let's see - minimal modification to the engine by hating the fuel so the volume expands + a totally BOGUS hydrogen oxygen electrolysis gas generator unit? And you CLAIM a roughly 40% increase in ENGINE EFFICIENCY? ROFLMAO!!

You gain a little bit from expanding the fuel in volume - maybe 2% (the temp isn't NEAR enough to "vaporize" the fuel - you might succeed in getting a bit of the high end volatiles into gas form, but remember - most all systems now are fuel injection and the injectors don't really "like" gas in the lines (can you say "vapor lock"? I knew you could)

Now aside from that - on to the other "snake oil" portion of the "system" - the electrolysis unit.
How does it generate the gases? Simple enough - run a current thru a water bath with electrodes attached to both "plus" and "minus" DC power (12v is enough to do it) BUT - and it's a BIG BUT - HOW MUCH DO YOU GENERATE? (more than that - how much POWER is consumed versus how much is produced by the gas?)

It's ALL BUNK. In order to get much improvement the actual engine DESIGN needs to be changed and let me tell you right now that as it stands, this violates the laws of thermodynamics.


.

Totally bogus?

Maybe. But then again, how are we to know that you are an expert and not totally bogus yourself. Have you tried this without success or are you drawing theoretically on your superior knowledge of engineering hydroxy supplemented internal combustion engines for the sole purpose of wanting to be a flamer?

[SS_Storm]

Wow lovely person there. I have gotten it to work on many Vehicles and it works amazingly. I dont care how the heck it does it just that it does and I am pretty sure most everyone would agree with me. I have been on the phone with the factory and they have a few ideas for me to try out b4 I call it quits

[PDoyle]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

Wow lovely person there. I have gotten it to work on many Vehicles and it works amazingly. I dont care how the heck it does it just that it does and I am pretty sure most everyone would agree with me. I have been on the phone with the factory and they have a few ideas for me to try out b4 I call it quits

SS got any pics of the install on the Land cruiser 80?

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by landtank

Safari offered a piggy back with it's turbo units that fried ECUs. Like I posted way back at the beginning, our trucks don't play well with piggy backs.

Rick, that is not correct. The Unichips that were supplied with the Safari units failed due to overheating of the chip itself. They did not fry the truck's ECU's.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Rick, that is not correct. The Unichips that were supplied with the Safari units failed due to overheating of the chip itself. They did not fry the truck's ECU's.

sorry, got it backwards, isn't this the same as what SS is seeing?

[SS_Storm]

no I reported about the dodge and the ford the other guys results were on a chevy.
The problem I have is that my piggy back gets burned out.
Guys do our trucks run a normal o2 sensor? or is it an early AFR because in looking at the wiring for the sensor it doesnt seem to have a ground wire according to all data

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by aircraft engineer

WHY? IT DOESN'T WORK EXCEPT IN YOUR MIND!! GIMMEE DATA - then I might LISTEN

Dear Sir,
1. Please shut up.
2. Please read the ~460 posts in this thread that precede your first post on 'Mud and the subsequent tirade in this thread.
3. If, after reading the thread, you have something new to add to this discussion then please jump in with both feet once again.
4. You should check out the 'Mud chat section. Those guys will love you over there.

Sincerely,
-B-
Chairman of the Welcome Wagon Committee

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

Guys do our trucks run a normal o2 sensor? or is it an early AFR because in looking at the wiring for the sensor it doesnt seem to have a ground wire according to all data

Blake,
My interpretation of that diagram is that the O2 sensors are grounded through their mount to the exhaust system.

-B-

[SS_Storm]

Exactly my thoughts which would lead me to believe we have an early AFR which is a totally different type of 02 sensor than I have been trying to deal with. I am figuring this out but it could be a very simple fix. I am filling out an RMA form as we speak for new computers.

PS-
I have stopped installing these as a business I went and tried to get it all legal and after taxes and liability insurance and rent
OH MY! I wouldn't be making anything lol someone who has their own business afloat should do these not someone who needs to survive lol

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

PS-
I have stopped installing these as a business I went and tried to get it all legal and after taxes and liability insurance and rent
OH MY! I wouldn't be making anything lol someone who has their own business afloat should do these not someone who needs to survive lol

That is why you must write off high business expenses. Meals with prospects and travel are both killers.

[aircraft engineer]

The dotted lines outside of OX1 and OX2 indicate that the output signal line is grounded to the ECM. It's actually a coax on everything I've seen and the sensor "housing" itself grounds thru the exhaust pipe.

Oxygen sensors are pretty much identical across the industry with the attachments being unique to the product served. If you are losing ECM units, you are getting a high input (like "supply voltage" somewhere in the circuit where it expects a small voltage) That's usually a burnt wire somewhere or 2 connector pins getting together

[SS_Storm]

Wow. Thank you engineer. that was a very helpful post.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by landtank

sorry, got it backwards, isn't this the same as what SS is seeing?

I read it to be that the piggyback is frying.

[mwdubs]

Wow this is amazing

[SS_Storm]

Same plug with and without the flash it looks perfect

[Beowulf]

Blake,

I am not an expert on reading plugs but this pic appears to show tiny specs of aluminum on the porcelin. Can you get a better close-up?

From two different web sources:

Detonation shows up on the plugs as spotting on the porcelain. There are two different types of spotting seen. One type appears as just black spots and the other appears as little bright spots like diamonds. The black spots (look like pepper sprinkled on the plug) indicate a little too much heat on the plug which causes detonation by having the heated plug fire off the mixture prior to the spark firing. This creates two flame fronts that collide and can cause great amounts of damage. If you see black spots on the porcelain and you know the tune-up is correct then you may need a colder plug. If you are not sure then increase the carburetor jet size slightly, take out some timing, or go to a colder plug. If you hold the plug in the sun and you see what appears to be small diamonds on the porcelain then your detonation is severe enough to be blowing off the aluminum from your piston and you need to add fuel and/or take out timing now.

and ...

The third thing to check is the porcelain color and this will clue you into preignition/detonation issues. What you're looking for are tiny specs of aluminum on the porcelain, which can be either black or shiny. If the tip of the insulator appears melted, then this is yet another clue to a pre-ignition/detonation problem. The detonation is caused by the air/fuel mixture exploding instead of burning and you may hear the resulting knocking sound from this, particularly when the engine is under a load. The knocking sound heard is actually a shock wave that's disrupting the boundary layer of cooler gasses that cover the internal parts of the combustion chamber, resulting in incomplete combustion. This rapid rise in pressure and temperature exerts extreme force on engine components and can do very bad things such as crack your engines head, crack or put holes in your piston, blow head gaskets, break your connecting rod, damage bearings, seals, etc. This is why you should not base all your jetting decisions on just the porcelain color alone because the porcelain color doesn't tell the whole story. Although the porcelain and base ring colors are similar, the porcelain usually appears lighter in color when compared to the base ring.

(emphasis added by me)

-B-

[Grolar]

I can't resist... did someone actually insert the tags "fantasy" and "sci-fi" or did they come up automatically?
SS, I'm sorry you're thinking about giving up. I would have loved to see some figures.

[aircraft engineer]

with the picture blown up to about 600% (roughly 15X magnification from a "real plug" at eyeball) it looks "normal" to me (it starts losing "definition" at full screen on a 19 inch monitor). Minimal evident wear on the center electrode and just a tinge of metallic color on the insulator. If that plug has been operating in a detonating condition, it hasn't been doing it for very long. Generally, on "over hot" plug (one that STAYS hot perhaps almost to the point of "glowing" to cause pre-ignition) will show a lot more indications than this.

How many miles on the plug? Based on possible erosion around the corners of center electrode, I'd guess 15k? You said this was out of your "gadget" equipped vehicle - curious question - you use tap water or distilled? Since I see you are in Central Calif - if you are using tap, the dissolved minerals might be showing as those slight green deposits on the insulator. Green is usually a sign of dissolved copper, perhaps a slight copper chloride content

[Romer]

I have deleted a bunch or recent posts that were chat, insults and not helpful to the thread.

[aircraft engineer]

you, of course, being a "moderator" have that ability, but I stand by my guns in that WITHOUT VERIFIED DATA THE SYSTEM IS UNPROVEN BUNK.

I guess it's "agree or else?"

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by aircraft engineer

you, of course, being a "moderator" have that ability, but I stand by my guns in that WITHOUT VERIFIED DATA THE SYSTEM IS UNPROVEN BUNK.

I guess it's "agree or else?"

Are there two of you?

I like the one that helps despite his skepticism better than the one who flames without ever trying the experiment himself. You've stated your opinion with more color than needed. Now that we all know you don't think it will work why don't you hang out and help with the data or at least hang out without being a dick.

Now, SS, lets see some verifiable data one way or the other on something with four wheels...

[aircraft engineer]

Nope - the questions were quasi-technical - I answered them as best I could from my vast mental knowledge storehouse <yeah, yeah, puffery - where's the data on the size of that storehouse? . good for the goose, good for the gander and all that.>

But I think it's better to make it clear from the beginning what I think of the "system". As far as experimenting - I've done a lot of things with "other" systems. As far as this one goes, given that I HAVE done electrolysis (and know what kind of volumes are produced and the energy input necessary for that production) plus the stated fact the system isn't modified other than to provide an input for the produced gas - it just doesn't add up. You probably don't care about the energy balance and otherwise violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Thus the "demand" for verifiable data. Lots of "he said" and "I heard" but no HARD data.

That having been said, there's no reason not to provide considered answers to questions/problems as stated (even as a simple question about the possible source of the green looking minor deposits on that plug). BTW - without the FLASH it's essentially impossible to see anything clearly. I have exactly the opposite problem for the stuff I usually take pix of - since they are colored but transparent, they seem to "overexpose" quite regularly (plus the items are generally quite small and shot with "macro" focal length (3 to 6 inches max). I have a "focus" problem regularly because of the "focal point" not being on the object itself so lately it's all been "use the display" - 8 megapixel digital).