Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!) - Page 13

JO MAOMA · 07-17-08, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundaypunch

Don't you think they would do it if they could get it to work?

i was being facetious....

(although i would love to hear an explanation from anyone who
believes this stuff works as to why car makers would prefer to
lose money than use this ""technology")

EricG · 07-17-08, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

I don't think it's that simple. It's a matter of trust.

If I get my Dad's working, most of you still won't believe me.

But if an automaker or dealership is incorporating them with warranties & all, only then would they be widespread...

People want to be told what to do, told what works, etc. They generally are afraid to find out for themselves.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Let me know when you have some.

Ebag333 · 07-17-08, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO MAOMA

(although i would love to hear an explanation from anyone who
believes this stuff works as to why car makers would prefer to
lose money than use this ""technology")

The more cynical members here might point out how much $$$ Toyota is making off replacement parts and such on their hybrids.

Have seen several comparisons of the Hummer (H1) and Prius. Prius is about 3 times as expensive to run (after you figure in the gas) due to the cost of replacement parts.

There are known technologies that companies are ignoring. Diesel is one of them. But personally I don't believe that this (HHO/HAFC) is one of them.

ETD66SS · 07-17-08, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricG

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Let me know when you have some.

Uhm, he went from 16 mpg to 28...

The best we can do is 30 mpg. Not sure that is extraordinary, but it's better than 16.

This kit does not claim 100 mpg for this vehicle. That is the PICC, not the HAFC that claims that...

EricG · 07-17-08, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

Uhm, he went from 16 mpg to 28...

The best we can do is 30 mpg. Not sure that is extraordinary, but it's better than 16.

That is an extraordinary claim - but a statement on an internet board by a previously unknown member with little detail is far from extraordinary evidence. I'd start becoming interested if you could show the records and testing done pre-install. Then a vehicle inspection and confirmation of the 28-30 MPG post-install by well known & trusted person(s) or organizations. A dyno run would be interesting also.

Quote:

This kit does not claim 100 mpg for this vehicle. That is the PICC, not the HAFC that claims that...

CJF · 07-17-08, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.

What year's your Cruiser?

Curtis

JO MAOMA · 07-17-08, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebag333

The more cynical members here might point out how much $$$ Toyota is making off replacement parts and such on their hybrids.

so a cynical person would assume GM decided to lose 37 billion
dollars last year because toyota makes a lot on replacement
hybrid parts....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebag333

Have seen several comparisons of the Hummer (H1) and Prius. Prius is about 3 times as expensive to run (after you figure in the gas) due to the cost of replacement parts. .

seems that makes my point, more expensive to run yet toyota can't make the prius fast enough
to keep up with demand and GM is shit-canning the hummer because they can't sell them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebag333

There are known technologies that companies are ignoring. Diesel is one of them.

they're ignoring diesel? i can buy diesels from Ford, GM, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes, and as demand increases so will the number of diesel offerings. next year toyota, audi....

CJF · 07-17-08, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebag333

The more cynical members here might point out how much $$$ Toyota is making off replacement parts and such on their hybrids.

What parts? Linky?

Quote:

Have seen several comparisons of the Hummer (H1) and Prius. Prius is about 3 times as expensive to run (after you figure in the gas) due to the cost of replacement parts.

I don't believe that.

I only recall one bogus article about that that was floating around for a while. Got a link?

Quote:

There are known technologies that companies are ignoring. Diesel is one of them.

The reason for that is pretty simple: It's too hard to meet US emissions requirements. So the rest of the world gets them, and we don't.

I know you stay out of chat, but we've really hashed a lot of this out over there; I'll find ya a couple good threads on hybrid/diesel/hybrid-vs-diesel if you're interested.

Curtis

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 04:27 PM

Hybrids great on gasoline savings but not expense, study finds

Hybrids may be tops when it comes to saving gasoline, but they're far from the best choice for budget-conscious car buyers, a new study says.

The four-door hatchback Chevy Aveo from General Motors Corp. leads the ranking of the best new-car values in terms of "total ownership cost" as calculated by automotive data firm Edmunds.com, based on $5-a-gallon gas. The highest-ranked hybrid was the Honda Civic at No. 10. The Toyota Prius hybrid -- No. 1 in the government's fuel economy rankings -- came in 26th.

Photos: Edmunds.com's 10 most...

Hybrids, which are powered by both an electric motor and a gasoline engine, typically get better gas mileage than their non-hybrid counterparts but carry higher price tags.

A 2008 Aveo hatchback with manual transmission lists for $10,235 and is rated by the Environmental Protection Agency at 27 miles per gallon in combined city-highway driving. The Prius, by contrast, has a combined fuel economy of 46 mpg and a suggested retail price of $21,500 -- and typically sells for thousands of dollars above that because of high demand.

The study's purpose "isn't to discourage people from buying hybrids," said Jesse Toprak, head of industry analysis for Santa Monica-based Edmunds.com. However, "consumers ought to consider regular-engine small cars if their goal is just to save money."

JO MAOMA · 07-17-08, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamisobe

The Prius, by contrast, has a combined fuel economy of 46 mpg and a suggested retail price of $21,500 -- and typically sells for thousands of dollars above that because of high demand.

one more making my point. if this tech worked any car
company could take their current lineup of cars and cash
in on the high demand for fuel effeciant cars and would
be able to charge a premium for these cars as well. so
why don't they...

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO MAOMA

one more making my point. if this tech worked any car
company could take their current lineup of cars and cash
in on the high demand for fuel effeciant cars and would
be able to charge a premium for these cars as well. so
why don't they...

That is a good question.

I would like to hear an answer from an automotive engineer familiar with the technology. You would think that if it worked they could engineer a super efficient version.

JO MAOMA · 07-17-08, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamisobe

That is a good question.

I would like to hear an answer from an automotive engineer familiar with the technology. You would think that if it worked they could engineer a super efficient version.

ok how about this one, **** ********. he's associate dean of
the college of technology and innovation at ASU. according to
him the answer to the question is "because it's nonsense"...

ETD66SS · 07-17-08, 04:55 PM

Quote:

That is an extraordinary claim - but a statement on an internet board by a previously unknown member with little detail is far from extraordinary evidence. I'd start becoming interested if you could show the records and testing done pre-install. Then a vehicle inspection and confirmation of the 28-30 MPG post-install by well known & trusted person(s) or organizations. A dyno run would be interesting also.

Well, sorry to say I'm not here to satisfy you.

I searched the internet for someone installing one, and found this board. I don't own a cruiser... I'm just sharing my HAFC experience. If you don't want to read about it because you don't trust someone on a message board, I really don't care. I'm not an HAFC salesperson, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything. It's not up to me to do all kinds of extravagant testing to satisfy you. I'm sure if you listened in on the Dutchman LLC mechanics hotlines they have twice a week, even call in and ask questions, they would be able to give you answers, even point you to independent studies & testing. I'm just a Mechanical Engineer installing one of these because my Dad wanted to try it, nothing more.

Believe me, I am a skeptical person too, have to see something to believe it. Well, my father filled up last week, went 108 miles, then filled up again and the tank only took 4 gallons of gas. That's all the proof he needs to be honest.

Here are some pics of the spark plugs ppl requested, as well as some of the disassembled fuel cell. I just got done cleaning it. It's pretty black for only 3 weeks of operation...

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO MAOMA

ok how about this one, ***********. he's associate dean of
the college of technology and innovation at ASU. according to
him the answer to the question is "because it's nonsense"...

That is a flippant answer to me. I would like to hear *********** expand on why he thinks it is nonsense.

I have seen the gas make a torch and I have seen many, many positive reports of HHO technology in cars. I have also seen that there are many complaints regarding the tuning process and uncertainty regarding risk of damage to the engine.

JO MAOMA · 07-17-08, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamisobe

That is a flippant answer to me. I would like to hear Dale Palmgren expand on why he thinks it is nonsense.

(480) ***-**** or ******** "at" asu.edu

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO MAOMA

(480) 727-1917 or ********* "at" asu.edu

I sent the email. We'll see if he cares to respond.

gotmud · 07-17-08, 05:29 PM

Give Dale a couple of beers and he'll explain just about anything to you. Ask him about how he tested the thigh-master for Suzanne Summers....funny story!

***This concludes the hijacking of this thread***

EricG · 07-17-08, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

Well, sorry to say I'm not here to satisfy you.

That's fine. But it's the same story everywhere you look on this stuff. Lot's of "grass roots" (indistinguishable from astroturf) and company claims of phenomenal mileage improvements. But nobody willing or able to stand up and have the performance of the system verified by any reputable & independent 3rd party.

Excuse me if I'm not convinced - but good luck to you & your pistons.

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotmud

Give Dale a couple of beers and he'll explain just about anything to you. Ask him about how he tested the thigh-master for Suzanne Summers....funny story!

***This concludes the hijacking of this thread***

I would be fine with that if he wouldn't mind coming to South Texas. I'm not spending the gas to drive there.

ETD66SS · 07-17-08, 05:37 PM

Ok, well it was definitely the dirty fuel cell plates that was causing the amp draw problem.

Here is the amp reading after cleaning the fuel cell, it shows 34 amps, but we added a bit of distilled water and got it down to 30.4 amps.

I did a water bottle test. It took 75 sec for the fuel cell to make 2L of HHO. So 1.6L/min.

I'll have my dad do another mpg test.

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 05:44 PM

Dale responed:

Hi Bret,

I think you might have sent this to wrong person. I really have no expertise in fuel injection.

Take care,

***********

Doesn't sound like he knows.

landtank · 07-17-08, 06:14 PM

my buddy has a 1999 Camry with a 4 cylinder engine. It is also CA emission. What is unique about this car is that it has air injection. There is a chamber of sorts that the fuel injectors reside nad fresh air is pumped in and then gets injected along with the fuel. This has to be the ideal HHO candidate as the delivery system is already in place.

I got to find me one of these cars.

jamisobe · 07-17-08, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by landtank

my buddy has a 1999 Camry with a 4 cylinder engine. It is also CA emission. What is unique about this car is that it has air injection. There is a chamber of sorts that the fuel injectors reside nad fresh air is pumped in and then gets injected along with the fuel. This has to be the ideal HHO candidate as the delivery system is already in place.

I got to find me one of these cars.

Let the hounds loose...

mot · 07-17-08, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by landtank

I got to find me one of these cars.

Time to upgrade your daughter's ride.

07-17-08, 04:27 PM	#369
jamisobe IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,062	Hybrids great on gasoline savings but not expense, study finds Hybrids may be tops when it comes to saving gasoline, but they're far from the best choice for budget-conscious car buyers, a new study says. The four-door hatchback Chevy Aveo from General Motors Corp. leads the ranking of the best new-car values in terms of "total ownership cost" as calculated by automotive data firm Edmunds.com, based on $5-a-gallon gas. The highest-ranked hybrid was the Honda Civic at No. 10. The Toyota Prius hybrid -- No. 1 in the government's fuel economy rankings -- came in 26th. Photos: Edmunds.com's 10 most... Hybrids, which are powered by both an electric motor and a gasoline engine, typically get better gas mileage than their non-hybrid counterparts but carry higher price tags. A 2008 Aveo hatchback with manual transmission lists for $10,235 and is rated by the Environmental Protection Agency at 27 miles per gallon in combined city-highway driving. The Prius, by contrast, has a combined fuel economy of 46 mpg and a suggested retail price of $21,500 -- and typically sells for thousands of dollars above that because of high demand. The study's purpose "isn't to discourage people from buying hybrids," said Jesse Toprak, head of industry analysis for Santa Monica-based Edmunds.com. However, "consumers ought to consider regular-engine small cars if their goal is just to save money." __________________ 95 FZJ80 custom headers & 3" flowmaster exhaust, 4" OME lift (with CC bushings, x br lines, adj panhards, heavier dropped sways), ARB lockers, 35" Toyo M/Ts, dual dry cell batteries, 2300 watt inverter, speedo corrected, & Kaymar w/carrier Next: ???

07-17-08, 05:29 PM	#377
gotmud IH8MUD Addict Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gringolandia TLCA# 18039 Posts: 531	Give Dale a couple of beers and he'll explain just about anything to you. Ask him about how he tested the thigh-master for Suzanne Summers....funny story! *This concludes the hijacking of this thread* __________________ 1994 FZJ80

07-17-08, 05:37 PM	#380
ETD66SS IH8MUD Rookie Join Date: May 2008 Location: Newfane, NY Posts: 24	Ok, well it was definitely the dirty fuel cell plates that was causing the amp draw problem. Here is the amp reading after cleaning the fuel cell, it shows 34 amps, but we added a bit of distilled water and got it down to 30.4 amps. I did a water bottle test. It took 75 sec for the fuel cell to make 2L of HHO. So 1.6L/min. I'll have my dad do another mpg test. __________________ My pond project: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/p...d-project.html

07-17-08, 05:44 PM	#381
jamisobe IH8MUD Lifer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,062	Dale responed: Hi Bret, I think you might have sent this to wrong person. I really have no expertise in fuel injection. Take care, *********** Doesn't sound like he knows. __________________ 95 FZJ80 custom headers & 3" flowmaster exhaust, 4" OME lift (with CC bushings, x br lines, adj panhards, heavier dropped sways), ARB lockers, 35" Toyo M/Ts, dual dry cell batteries, 2300 watt inverter, speedo corrected, & Kaymar w/carrier Next: ??? Last edited by jamisobe; 07-17-08 at 08:14 PM.

07-17-08, 06:14 PM	#382
landtank ThinkTank Waterboy Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Boston MA Posts: 11,116	my buddy has a 1999 Camry with a 4 cylinder engine. It is also CA emission. What is unique about this car is that it has air injection. There is a chamber of sorts that the fuel injectors reside nad fresh air is pumped in and then gets injected along with the fuel. This has to be the ideal HHO candidate as the delivery system is already in place. I got to find me one of these cars. __________________ Rick Bigelow '96 215k Groveland MA 01834 If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes