Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!)

[suprathepeg]

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

Well, after several months of trying to get this damn HAFC system to work by reading the crappy instructions they give you, and the non-support Dutchman gives to those who won't pay $1000 to be officially trained, I FINALLY got the system working on my fathers truck.

Before installation he was getting 16 MPG. After the installation and a TON of tinkering he's getting 28 MPG.

Now it's only been working properly for 3 weeks. I was skeptical he'd see that kind of fuel mileage increase, but it is working.

However, I'm still skeptical of the longevity and reliability of the system. It seems like the way the fuel cell makes HHO gas is finicky at best...

The caustic solution mixture is hard to get right so there is no foaming, etc.

It was a hair pulling experience for me, but my father got his fuel mileage increase and he's happy, so I guess I'm happy.

I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.

I will say one thing, I would not want to be a mechanic installing this thing on customers' vehicles, it's a huge hassle IMO.

Details man give us some details.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

Well, after several months of trying to get this damn HAFC system to work by reading the crappy instructions they give you, and the non-support Dutchman gives to those who won't pay $1000 to be officially trained, I FINALLY got the system working on my fathers truck.

Before installation he was getting 16 MPG. After the installation and a TON of tinkering he's getting 28 MPG.

Now it's only been working properly for 3 weeks. I was skeptical he'd see that kind of fuel mileage increase, but it is working.

However, I'm still skeptical of the longevity and reliability of the system. It seems like the way the fuel cell makes HHO gas is finicky at best...

The caustic solution mixture is hard to get right so there is no foaming, etc.

It was a hair pulling experience for me, but my father got his fuel mileage increase and he's happy, so I guess I'm happy.

I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.

I will say one thing, I would not want to be a mechanic installing this thing on customers' vehicles, it's a huge hassle IMO.

So this was his GMC correct? Not a 80 series?

[landtank]

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

Well, after several months of trying to get this damn HAFC system to work by reading the crappy instructions they give you, and the non-support Dutchman gives to those who won't pay $1000 to be officially trained, I FINALLY got the system working on my fathers truck.

Before installation he was getting 16 MPG. After the installation and a TON of tinkering he's getting 28 MPG.

Now it's only been working properly for 3 weeks. I was skeptical he'd see that kind of fuel mileage increase, but it is working.

However, I'm still skeptical of the longevity and reliability of the system. It seems like the way the fuel cell makes HHO gas is finicky at best...

The caustic solution mixture is hard to get right so there is no foaming, etc.

It was a hair pulling experience for me, but my father got his fuel mileage increase and he's happy, so I guess I'm happy.

I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.

I will say one thing, I would not want to be a mechanic installing this thing on customers' vehicles, it's a huge hassle IMO.

What's his MPG without the Cell being active. That would tell you how much the cell is doing and how much all the tweaking is.

[ETD66SS]

Yes, this is a 1999 GMC Sierra with a 4800 Vortec.

The fuel cell was the hardest thing to get working, and it's still not working the way they say it should.

Using a clamp on amp meter, I'm supposed to be getting 30 amp draw from the fuel cell.

To tweak this amp draw, you change the mixture of potassium hydroxide & distilled water. Now, we thought we had found the ratio. We got it to draw 27 amps. He ran that for like 3 days and then all of the sudden the fuel cell was kicking out foam and he sucked that into his throttle body and barely made it home one day.

After draining all the caustic solution and starting over, he kept adding caustic until he got foam again, and then removed some of the solution and added a bit of distilled water. However, after doing that we're only seeing a 11 amp draw, 1/3 of what it's supposed to be. yet, the truck is running the best it ever has, and he's getting the best mileage. It flies in the face of the 30 amps the ppl on the mechanics hotline keep saying you should be getting for using both sides of the fuel cell. 15 amps for one side (small engines) 30 amps when using both sides (v-8 engines)

I told my dad that is not the right reading, and it needs to be 30. He wants to run it as is because of how well the truck is running and the mileage he's getting. I'm worried that it's too leaned out, and not enough HHO is being made.

That's pretty much where we're at.

I don't want to run it without the fuel cell on, because that would run the engine even more lean. If he turns off the fuel cell, I have him re-wire the O2 sensors back to normal, and shutoff the switch circuit I made for the AIT & Coolant sensors.

We had the fuel cell drawing 30 amps for 3 days, then it crapped out. The best we can get now is 11 amp draw...

We towed a dump trailer with about 1000 lbs of steel in it yesterday, it had enough power.

So it's working, but not working to specifications...

There is no good way to determine how much HHO is being made other than looking at the amp draw. Also, you're supposed to reduce the flow through the MAF by 15%, and for GM's, they have not found a way to do that yet. First they told me a 5kOhm resistor between the MAF signal & ground would do it, but then they said that did not work for all GM's. So it's still a work in progress. I do not have an OBDII scanner to check anything to see what's going on. All I know is his mileage went from 16 to 28, which he's very happy with that.

[sleeoffroad]

I do not have an OBDII scanner to check anything to see what's going on. All I know is his mileage went from 16 to 28, which he's very happy with that.

What is it going to help to monitor OBDII when all the sensors have been tampered with? You are just going to see a bunch of altered signals. What do you mean with wire the O2 sensors back to normal? What did you do to them?

[ETD66SS]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

What is it going to help to monitor OBDII when all the sensors have been tampered with? You are just going to see a bunch of altered signals. What do you mean with wire the O2 sensors back to normal? What did you do to them?

Here is the Optimizer wiring diagram:

Optimizer Wiring

You intercept the O2 signals and change the voltage to force the vehicle to run leaner. This is why running the vehicle with the Optimizer setup, but the fuel cell turned off is not advisable... It will run too lean in that scenario.

The only circuit on the diagram you do not setup is the KAM circuit, as you want to utilize the adaptive RAM of the ECM. Basically the ECM learns how to run the engine with the Optimizer plugged in over time.

I need the OBDII scanner for before and after values. I need to know that the MAF gpm decreased 15%, and that the O2 sensor voltage is lower, forcing the engine to run leaner. The HHO gas makes the fuel/air mixture burn slower, therefore you need less fuel, so you can run leaner as far as the ECM is concerned. The Optimizer forces this leaner condition, because just dumping HHO into the air/fuel mixture without changing the signals accomplishes nothing in terms of using less gas.

Without a scanner, I'm running blind. I have no idea how much the values changed. You tune the system by taking the cover off the Optimizer and adjusting a POT while monitoring what they call the P6 voltage. That value is different for every make car. That is what tweaks the O2 voltage. It's basically an electronic rich/lean screw...

[sleeoffroad]

Sorry, but this is getting real scary for me. Modifying one of the main inputs of the vehicle to control air fuel mixture and then hoping there is enough HHO gas to make sure you do not trash and engine is not for me.

I have asked in the past about the volume of HHO gas required but no answers were given.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Sorry, but this is getting real scary for me. Modifying one of the main inputs of the vehicle to control air fuel mixture and then hoping there is enough HHO gas to make sure you do not trash and engine is not for me.

I have asked in the past about the volume of HHO gas required but no answers were given.

It's not making enough HHO, his amp draw is too low. A good efficient cell will produce about 1 liter of HHO/min per 10 amp draw.

As far as the foaming goes is there a bubbler attached with a common tank to the cell itself?

[ETD66SS]

Originally Posted by landtank

It's not making enough HHO, his amp draw is too low. A good efficient cell will produce about 1 liter of HHO/min per 10 amp draw.

As far as the foaming goes is there a bubbler attached with a common tank to the cell itself?

What is a bubbler?

And like I said, it was drawing 27 amps then foamed all to hell without modifying the caustic. It ran for 3 days at 27 amps them foamed up... Now we can;t get it above 11 amps.

Sorry, but this is getting real scary for me. Modifying one of the main inputs of the vehicle to control air fuel mixture and then hoping there is enough HHO gas to make sure you do not trash and engine is not for me.

Believe me, I stressed this to my father on many occasions, he's willing to do it on his truck...

[JO MAOMA]

Originally Posted by landtank

It's not making enough HHO, his amp draw is too low. A good efficient cell will produce about 1 liter of HHO/min per 10 amp draw.

for a little perspective lets say it was operating at peak
efficiency and producing 3 litters of "HHO" a minute.
that amount of gas would contains .0216 MJ (.00598KwH)
of energy. that's the equivalent of .00072 liters of gasoline
or about one and a half drops....

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

What is a bubbler?

And like I said, it was drawing 27 amps then foamed all to hell without modifying the caustic. It ran for 3 days at 27 amps them foamed up... Now we can;t get it above 11 amps.



Believe me, I stressed this to my father on many occasions, he's willing to do it on his truck...

The canister of water that the electrolysis unit bubbles into acting as a buffer? The tube goes from the bubbler to the intake?

[suprathepeg]

Check this guys videos out he has a pretty good way to measure how much hho your getting too.

YouTube - Smack Install part 1!!!!!!

His site:

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

[suprathepeg]

Originally Posted by JO MAOMA

for a little perspective lets say it was operating at peak
efficiency and producing 3 litters of "HHO" a minute.
that amount of gas would contains .0216 MJ (.00598KwH)
of energy. that's the equivalent of .00072 liters of gasoline
or about one and a half drops....

Don't forget you're only getting to use a bout a third or less of that potential energy in the gas, now if the HHO allows you to get at more of that energy in the gas then I can see it working.

Is there any shadytree way to tell if your running to lean?

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by suprathepeg

Is there any shadytree way to tell if your running to lean?

You can examine the spark plugs and tell if the engine is running lean. There are hundreds of pictures on the internet but let me know if you want me to find and post one.

The other way is by pulling a plug and looking through the hole in the top of your piston and observing the con rod below it. That's a pretty good indication you've been running too lean for a week or two.

-B-

[Ebag333]

Originally Posted by Beowulf

You can examine the spark plugs and tell if the engine is running lean. There are hundreds of pictures on the internet but let me know if you want me to find and post one.

The other way is by pulling a plug and looking through the hole in the top of your piston and observing the con rod below it. That's a pretty good indication you've been running too lean for a week or two.

-B-

EDT66SS,

Any chance of you getting a pic or two of the spark plugs? It'd go a long way towards answering questions.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

What is a bubbler?

And like I said, it was drawing 27 amps then foamed all to hell without modifying the caustic. It ran for 3 days at 27 amps them foamed up... Now we can;t get it above 11 amps.

the bubbler acts like a water pipe in that it filters out the foam from the HHO. Usually they try and have a link between the cell and the bubbler so as the bubbler fills with foam and then settles out the extra fluid in the bubbler is drained back into the cell automatically. Other wise the bubbler will eventually fill and the engine will ingest some foam anyway.

I've also seen a barrier in the cell that once the foam builds to a point this barrier helps break it down and not let it build up any further.

Go to you tube and look for the zero fossil fuel channel. This guy has some very good experiments and everything you need to know and diagrams on how to build his projects. Pretty interesting even if you think it's BS.

[JO MAOMA]

Originally Posted by suprathepeg

Don't forget you're only getting to use a bout a third or less of that potential energy in the gas, now if the HHO allows you to get at more of that energy in the gas then I can see it working.

Is there any shadytree way to tell if your running to lean?

not exactly. very nearly 100% the energy contained in the
gas is actualized, it's the IC engines inability to convert that
energy into "work" that is grossly inefficient....

[ETD66SS]

Originally Posted by Ebag333

EDT66SS,

Originally Posted by Ebag333

Any chance of you getting a pic or two of the spark plugs? It'd go a long way towards answering questions.

This is how I have the fuel cell hooked up. We keep the water level about 1 inch below the bottom of the top PVC cap. The fitting on top of the reservoir in the pic that does not show a hose on it actually goes to the bottom of the air box. That 1" gap filled up with foam until it got sucked into the engine.

The thing is, the fuel cell is not supposed to generate foam. If it's generating foam, it means it's drawing more than 30 amps and there is too much caustic in the solution. Unfortunately my Dad did not take an amperage reading during the foam incident.

Here is the pic:



I'll see if I can get a pic of a spark plug.

I think the next step is to take out the fuel cell, take it apart & clean it. Then mix a new batch of caustic and start over. They say you're supposed to clean it after 3 weeks, it's been 3 weeks since he's been making HHO.

Originally Posted by suprathepeg

Don't forget you're only getting to use a bout a third or less of that potential energy in the gas, now if the HHO allows you to get at more of that energy in the gas then I can see it working.



Is there any shadytree way to tell if your running to lean?

I still don't understand why ppl think the system makes HHO to burn it as a fuel? That's not the theory behind the system. The theory is to use the HHO to make the air/fuel mixture burn slower, therefore using less gas per stroke cycle... You're not creating hydrogen via electrolysis to burn it as a fuel. Of course it's not a perpetual motion machine, that's not what it's designed to do...

[landtank]

my understanding is that the HHO has a higher flash point so it's the gasoline that actually ignites it. And once ignited it burns faster than the gasoline which helps burn the gasoline more effectively resulting in a higher efficency.

From what I've seen simply adding HHO to the air stream will help fuel economy but because this throws off the O2 sensor readings which results in richening the mixture you need to alter those signals to get the most benefit.

And that diagram doesn't make any sense to me. I was expecting the plates to be in the water bath.

[fjfar80]

I have a few questions in regards to the actual testing of this system - what were/are the testing parameters for the system - vehicles, mileage, conditions, variables, etc. As with any system - especially one that is being used on a vehicle's engine - I would imagine some substantial longterm data supporting the system. If possible, could you post that? I would like to see the vehicles it was tested on prior to commercial sale - the miles tested, testing results, associated maintenance costs, etc. Additionally, I am assuming that this voids all new vehicle warranties - is that a correct assumption? Last - has this device been DOT approved - since we are dealing with a "fuel cell" would it have to be DOT approved? Thanks in advance for your time.

[JO MAOMA]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

I don't think the hydrogen does much of anything..

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

The hydrogen is not a Fuel substitute its just a accelerator for the burn. the main thing is leaning the fuel once you have it burning faster

Originally Posted by ETD66SS

I still don't understand why ppl think the system makes HHO to burn it as a fuel? That's not the theory behind the system. The theory is to use the HHO to make the air/fuel mixture burn slower, therefore using less gas per stroke cycle...

ok, now it all makes sence....

[ETD66SS]

And that diagram doesn't make any sense to me. I was expecting the plates to be in the water bath.

I made that diagram in a 3D modeling software. I did not have the internal dimensions for the fuel cell. What you don't see in that pic is in between the plates are delrin spacers. The center upside down T shape is the grounding plate, the series of plates separated by the spacers is what you apply the current tom one #10-32 stud each side. It is a double fuel cell if you jumper a wire across the studs, single if you only use one.

The electrolyte is gravity fed into the bottom ports, when the fuel cell is turned on, the solenoid opens allowing flow into the bottom ports, and HHO gas comes out the top and fills the upper part of the reservoir, where the air cleaner cab suck it out.

Sorry, I don't have a cross section of the fuel cell, I only modeled what it looks like from the outside. When I take it apart to clean it, I'll take pictures.