Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!)

[sleeoffroad]

Just for the record a 1FZFE short block is about $3k. That will suck up a lot of fuel savings if you blow one up. Yes, he is experimenting on his truck, but he is also an installer. So in essence he is somewhat acting as a vendor for these systems. So I think we can ask questions. If he does not want to talk about this system, why start the thread?

PS, this is the first line of the first post

Hey guys you all know I am a Certified installer, tuner and instructor for these things so feel free for any questions.

[SS_Storm]

yessir! Im more than willing to answer questions when they are actual questions not stuff intended to be idiots or just annoy me. Im not leaning the gas out THAT much. I have never seen the temp gauge go higher than the half mark (stock running temps) on the cars I have done.

[sleeoffroad]

By the time the temp gauge move on the 80, it is to late. Temperature is not an indication that you are not detonating.

How much are you leaning it out? How do you quantify it? If you double the fuel mileage, you have to be taking 50% of the fuel away and adding something to make up for it. Otherwise it won't have the same power.

You also state this in a earlier post:

3) the Optimizer- this is a little piggy back computer I wire in front of your ecu. it lets it lean out your fuel and not think something is wrong and richen it automatically and get same mileage as stock even with the mods. this does not effect DTC's or MIL's (check engine light) and you still have the safety of open loop (your computer has the ability to revert to factory settings at any time if it thinks a sensor is broken, all factories put this in its pretty cool)

Open loop is not the safety of the ECU. Limp mode is. Open loop mode is determined from a set of parameters, all or most of which you have modified. So open loop will not occur as the factory determined it. So how can you rely on open loop to save your motor?

[SS_Storm]

A characteristic of the open-loop controller is that it does not use feedback to determine if its input has achieved the desired goal. This means that the system does not observe the output of the processes that it is controlling. Consequently, a true open-loop system can not engage in machine learning and also cannot correct any errors that it could make. It also may not compensate for disturbances in the system.
OPEN LOOP
Open-loop controller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't trip codes I dont get knocking engines run smoother ect. I really do not think I am leaning it enough to hurt anything.
on a obd2 setup I normally look for a number around 0% fuel trim short and long term than I check the actual engine coolant temp, I test making sure there has been no power loss at any point in the throttle using an accelerometer (belkin)

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

A characteristic of the open-loop controller is that it does not use feedback to determine if its input has achieved the desired goal. This means that the system does not observe the output of the processes that it is controlling. Consequently, a true open-loop system can not engage in machine learning and also cannot correct any errors that it could make. It also may not compensate for disturbances in the system.
OPEN LOOP
Open-loop controller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I understand what an open loop system is, however the trucks ECU determines when it needs to go to open loop from a set of parameters that are derived from inputs from the same sensors you have now changed. So WHEN the truck goes into open loop has been changed. So you can not rely on that as a failsafe.

I don't trip codes I dont get knocking engines run smoother ect. I really do not think I am leaning it enough to hurt anything.
on a obd2 setup I normally look for a number around 0% fuel trim
short and long term than I check the actual engine coolant temp, I test making sure there has been no power loss at any point in the throttle using an accelerometer (belkin)

Fuel trim is derived from the o2 sensor signals. The exact signals that you are also modifying, so how can you rely on fuel trim to be accurate?

Temperature is not an indication of detonation. You can have mild detonation without temp increases. You will not know it.

An accelerometer does not monitor power, it monitors acceleration. You should put it on a dyno to see if you are loosing power.

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

An accelerometer does not monitor power, it monitors acceleration. You should put it on a dyno to see if you are loosing power.

If acceleration stays the same, improves, or decreases, with all other weight and aerodynamic factors constant, wouldn't that be a fairly reliable indicator of power change?

Ideally, SS would have a dyno, but if that isn't feasible one would think that an accelerometer would be useful even if less than ideal.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

I test making sure there has been no power loss at any point in the throttle using an accelerometer (belkin)

Google has never heard of a Belkin accelerometer.
Do you mean a Beltronics accelerometer?

-B-

[SS_Storm]

HAHHAah yes you got it. I have no idea where I got belkin from

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by jamisobe

If acceleration stays the same, improves, or decreases, with all other weight and aerodynamic factors constant, wouldn't that be a fairly reliable indicator of power change?

Only if throttle input is also the same.

Ideally, SS would have a dyno, but if that isn't feasible one would think that an accelerometer would be useful even if less than ideal.

It could be. I do not have a huge problem with the power. I would assume if it ran like crap it would be noticeable. They are not selling a performance part. I just have a problem with doing a bunch of blind tuning on a motor and trusting it will work.

Also, I do not believe that the fuel cell can produce enough to make a difference. People have been using propane for a long time to increase gas mileage. Ask the people in OZ and Europe. However also check the size of the tank they add as well as the pressure in the tank.

[SS_Storm]

I don't think the hydrogen does much of anything. I just went on a drive with the cell turned off and noticed no difference in power. I think it is the combination of everything

[EricG]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Also, I do not believe that the fuel cell can produce enough to make a difference.

Also note that the device in question here is nothing like a fuel cell. A fuel cell produces electricity from fuel (H2, hydrocarbons, alcohols, etc.) and oxidyzer.

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Only if throttle input is also the same.

True, but wouldn't WOT be a constant?

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

It could be. I do not have a huge problem with the power. I would assume if it ran like crap it would be noticeable. They are not selling a performance part. I just have a problem with doing a bunch of blind tuning on a motor and trusting it will work.

I understand that as well. But, if the claims are 30-50% gains in mileage then the changes in mileage are so obvious that finer measurements aren't needed to verify a significant effect. Also, if SS were to prove these gains to himself (and ultimately others) and then run his truck for the next 20k miles without blowing the motor I would assume that interest from myself and others would begin to pique.

I have had interest in this hydroxy thing ever since I saw a news story on it about a month ago. I remain unconvinced, but still interested. I would like to become convinced. If SS comes back and says "no power loss and 25mpg" I will be even more interested. Otherwise, my interest will obviously fade or evaporate. So drive on SS. Convince me I should stay interested.

[Ebag333]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Only if throttle input is also the same.

Originally Posted by jamisobe

True, but wouldn't WOT be a constant?

Sure, but how are you going to control all the other little variables that come into play? Ambient temp, wind, traffic, etc....

A timed run ("I can run the quarter mile in 123 seconds") would work, but it'd need to be done multiple times (with and without the system) to really get an idea of the difference.

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by Ebag333

Sure, but how are you going to control all the other little variables that come into play? Ambient temp, wind, traffic, etc....

A timed run ("I can run the quarter mile in 123 seconds") would work, but it'd need to be done multiple times (with and without the system) to really get an idea of the difference.

I don't think those variables would have a significant impact if the runs were consecutive with no interfering traffic.

SS, multiple runs would probably be a good idea.

[Brian Macgyver]

Originally Posted by jamisobe

Is that statement intended to be all encompassing?

If technologies that have been proven ineffective in the past were discarded out of hand then there are many technologies that would be non-existent today. Like the automobile for instance, hybrid technology, or even solar power.

I have not personally experienced a car increase its gas mileage from using water electrolysis and I understand that there may be problems with it. But to say forget about from the get go is premature. Why not explore? If "hydroxy boosters" are working to some extent then that is increased energy efficiency. If it burns pistons or valves then that is a problem, but I have not yet heard of where it has done this in an uncorrectable, inherent manner. Only the ire of speculation.

Of course its ok to be skeptical. I am skeptical, but I am also intrigued that there have purportedly been some real results. I am reserving judgment because I am curious and that is my choice. I will continue to watch SS and his progress and I would like for this technology to succeed. If it doesn't then it it will go away, but for now lets see.

It is not a total opinion in any way. As an old mechanic, I am one of the biggest fans of the hybrid drive. IMO, it is the best system ever devised by humans. An electric motor as the acceleration driver is a wheelers' wet dream! An electric motor can produce 100% torque at zero RPM! What could be better? That kind of torque availability in an 80 chassis could make rock crawling child's play! A locked 80 has been refered to as the most capable chassis around. 100% torque availability would amount to cheating the odds. Hybrid drive would provide that.
I would like nothing more than to be able to repower my 80 with a 22RE 4 cylinder engine and a 110 volt motor to back it up. It would go faster, and climb obstacles better. My 6,000 lb truck would actually have some real performance on the highway.
The lemon in the fruit basket is the battery.
GM recently developed a hybrid truck that used the venerable 4.3 L V-6 in trucks up to the one-ton 4WD dual rear wheel. It produced more direct brake horsepower than the big-block version. Yet it clocked in at over 26 MPG on the highway!
This development was written up in automotive insiders magazines 8 years ago! The technology is in place.
The truck was aimed at remodelers and landscapers. It would run power tools or electric lawnmowers for several hours without a recharge. This reduced both carbon and noise emissions.
That truck ran on common household current, making it a generator for running a freezer in the most remote areas. A hunter could dress and quarter a deer in any place without bringing it home first. The venison would arrive at his home already cut and frozen.
A man who wants to go camping might call his wife. "Honey, get the blender and the microwave, we're going camping!"
The GM truck project was scrapped due to the lack of battery technology and proper disposal of dead batteries.
The NMH batteries that are used in cel phones may be the secret. At present, they are costly to produce, and to dispose of safely. But in time, that may change. That should be the focus of our efforts.
The hybrid may be the best future option. It produces better performance than current fuel engines can do, and it gets far better fuel economy. But it has some problems with battery cost and disposal. We need to work out those problems.

[PDoyle]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

I have never watched the video you talked about... Sounds retarded, sorry you wasted your time with it.
Just got a call form the shop regarding my truck. they won't change my 02 sensor without dropping my exhaust. kinda retarded. So im gonna attack it myself with some vice grips when I get a chance :-/

Found a wrench that will help with the o2 sensor bolts. I'm sure they are pretty rounded by now. I used the type of wrench that has the round beaded ends inside the socket. Mine is made by Gorilla, and comes in a small pouch, cost about $25 beans.. Not sure if you have ever seen this one in particular, but that type of socket will work very well if you can get your hands on one.

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by Brian Macgyver

It is not a total opinion in any way. As an old mechanic, I am one of the biggest fans of the hybrid drive. IMO, it is the best system ever devised by humans. An electric motor as the acceleration driver is a wheelers' wet dream! An electric motor can produce 100% torque at zero RPM! What could be better? That kind of torque availability in an 80 chassis could make rock crawling child's play! A locked 80 has been refered to as the most capable chassis around. 100% torque availability would amount to cheating the odds. Hybrid drive would provide that.
I would like nothing more than to be able to repower my 80 with a 22RE 4 cylinder engine and a 110 volt motor to back it up. It would go faster, and climb obstacles better. My 6,000 lb truck would actually have some real performance on the highway.
The lemon in the fruit basket is the battery.
GM recently developed a hybrid truck that used the venerable 4.3 L V-6 in trucks up to the one-ton 4WD dual rear wheel. It produced more direct brake horsepower than the big-block version. Yet it clocked in at over 26 MPG on the highway!
This development was written up in automotive insiders magazines 8 years ago! The technology is in place.
The truck was aimed at remodelers and landscapers. It would run power tools or electric lawnmowers for several hours without a recharge. This reduced both carbon and noise emissions.
That truck ran on common household current, making it a generator for running a freezer in the most remote areas. A hunter could dress and quarter a deer in any place without bringing it home first. The venison would arrive at his home already cut and frozen.
A man who wants to go camping might call his wife. "Honey, get the blender and the microwave, we're going camping!"
The GM truck project was scrapped due to the lack of battery technology and proper disposal of dead batteries.
The NMH batteries that are used in cel phones may be the secret. At present, they are costly to produce, and to dispose of safely. But in time, that may change. That should be the focus of our efforts.
The hybrid may be the best future option. It produces better performance than current fuel engines can do, and it gets far better fuel economy. But it has some problems with battery cost and disposal. We need to work out those problems.

Yes.

Another issue beyond the obvious is an increase in overall consumption of electricity from the power grid. Nuclear power would be inexpensive, plentiful, and is the obvious solution. The current power grid could not support the sudden mass availability of efficient electric vehicles.

Which brings us back to today. We need gas we can afford while we work on these issues.

[WildHare]

Originally Posted by EricG

Yes I do. What possible reason could the auto industry have for suppressing this technology for decades. And by the auto industry I mean hundreds or thousands of independent manufacturers, private, academic and government research groups, etc. located all over the world.

Why would they conceal this? It would be an enormous competitive advantage -

Sorry, progress in Internal Combustion engine technology just doesn't scale that way - it's a very mature technology. See if Moore's Law still holds 100 years from now.

This is true. Internal combustion technology is about maximizing combustion, thermal and mechanical efficiency. Given the constraints in materials and process brought about by reasonable production costs, we have the modern mass-produced combustion engine.

Silicon technology is dependent on the limits of process technology and atomic physics. Some of the limits of silicon Integrated Circuit (IC) technology are being reached today. It's why we're not seeing CPU clock speeds advance as they did through the 80's and 90's: it's just too difficult to get all parts of a chip to march in lock step when the number of transistors in a chip reaches a certain level. However, "Moore's law" is still holding close to true as the number of transistors on a single die continues to increase.

Sorry for the slight hijack. I love computers

[SS_Storm]

I don't have time right now to answer questions/reply to statements but thanks Doyle Ill look for that thing! sounds like exactly what I need.

I towed my bmw from here to just past san francisco today and that was like 100 mile round trip and it seemed to run well and ok power. got 14 mpg... BAD so I gotta get this thing leaning out NEED NEW 02 sensor!!!

[jamisobe]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

I don't have time right now to answer questions/reply to statements but thanks Doyle Ill look for that thing! sounds like exactly what I need.

I towed my bmw from here to just past san francisco today and that was like 100 mile round trip and it seemed to run well and ok power. got 14 mpg... BAD so I gotta get this thing leaning out NEED NEW 02 sensor!!!

You've got a pretty steep angle going on that tongue. You might want to invest in a dropped receiver hitch for your next tow.

[PDoyle]

Love the old car there. Wish I had a TII now.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by SS_Storm

on a obd2 setup I normally look for a number around 0% fuel trim short and long term than I check the actual engine coolant temp

Given enough time STFT will always hover around 0% once the LTFT% has been achieved.

Adjusting the trucks so the LTFT% is 0 is a really bad idea. The two major influences on LTFT% is the altitude the vehicle is in and the air temp (density) at that time.

My truck has a LTFT% of +3 because I'm at sea level and others in higher elevation have LTFT% of -6%. This has been recorded on several trucks and I'm confident it can be relied on.

So targeting a specific value all the time with give you varied results. It would seem you need to read the LTFT% prior to the install and then calculate a %drop in it to achieve consistent results. And the only way to do this is to leave the MAF signal alone. It's the one single signal that you would need to ensure that the LTFT% that you end up with is valid.