New strange steering softness

[NaterGator]

Need some brainstorming on this

Since my plans to repack my wheel bearings over spring break got scrapped to go skiing instead, I took the cruiser to the dealership to have them only repack the bearings (to the tune of $600 )

Got it back and all seems fine, however on the interstate on my drive back to Gainesville I noticed that my steering seemed very very light (ie effortless) at speed, especially so only a few degrees off center either direction.

Now, before I took it in this was not the case; I am lifted but I have caster correction and steering felt fine if not a bit numb before the work was done (it is a large suv though, not an IS-F.) I have crawled under the cruiser and checked the studs under the knuckles, the stabilizer, pretty much all the steering linkage and ends, and the panhard. The only problem I know of is one of the rubber boots on a TRE is punctured and needs to be greased pretty often (and replaced sooner rather than later)

None the less, I cannot work out what is going on and I want to be sure I'm just insane and that I'm not missing something logical. Anywhere else I should look?

[landtank]

jack up the tires and check for wheel play.

[NaterGator]

Hmm interesting thought. You'd assume the dealership could get preload correct considering the number of 80s we have in Tampa, but it's a valid point. Going to check my 12-6 and 3-9 play. Be back in a few, thanks for the lead Rick.

[NaterGator]

Absolutely no play at all 12-6.


Low speed steering seems to be pretty much the same as before. The only other potentially new thing (or maybe it's something I'm picking up now) is if I cut the wheels and then rock the steering wheel so the power steering system pressurizes each direction (but doesn't really move the wheels) I can hear a very light clunking noise like something is shifting It's so light I can't say if it was happening before because I probably wouldn't have ever noticed it, but when you are nitpicking ...

I checked that the steering box was mounted securely to the frame; it is. Power steering fluid looks good (unchanged) and I rechecked pretty much everything I could get my hands on from the steering arm to the knuckles. It all looks right

Is it possible that there was some sludge or air in my PS system (it wasn't whirring before though) and now I just have better pressure ergo more assist? When I get a chance I'll go in for another run on the alignment rack, but I can't imagine anything there has changed. Yet again I'm stumped.

[PacToy]

Nate,

Reads like you have done everything feasible to make sure the steering is in good working order. Maybe, after the bearing re-pack everything tightened up good and proper and that is how the cruiser should handle or feel.?!?!?

When they did the bearing re-pack, do you know how far they broke down the knuckle?

Get a buddy and have him slowly turn the steering wheel to load and un-load in both directions as you watch the linkages. ie knuckle housing, tie rod, pitman arm, steering box, etc.

If everything looks right and nothing is moving out of parameters then you are golden and have to get use to a tight steering. If you see something wrong then you know what needs to be fixed.

[NaterGator]

Randy,

My steering went from what I would call comfortable and a bit imprecise (read, there isn't really any feedback about the road through the wheel like you get in a small car) but city driving wasn't tiring and it was easy to stay in the center of the lane at 70 on the interstate.

Now at 70mph on the interstate the steering seems much more 'easy', it's akin to the way the electro steering setups in newer smaller cars work, just in reverse. In a newer RX or IS for example the electro assist is boosted a lot at low speeds so that you aren't clawing at the wheel to make a turn in the city, but when you cross a certain speed threshold the steering assist is lowered so that it doesn't feel darty and the vehicle does not wander.

With a bit of a breeze I was having to seriously focus to have acceptable lane manners. About 10degs either direction you could turn the wheel easily with just your pinky finger at 70mph. This leads to a very darty and difficult steering situation. I definitely need to get under the truck while a friend loads the steering components in both directions; I'll probably do it tomorrow because I'm driving home for easter and everybody else is already home

I know when they did the repack they did the usual FSM procedure; removed the rotors hubs and bearings, packed the hubs and bearings and reassembled. The dealer understood that I normally do PM myself and that this was the only thing I wanted them to do and to call me if they found something else major. I had both wheel bearings dry up and seize about 10k miles ago (previous owner was a little off about the last time they were repacked ) so I have new hubs, spindles, etc. The dealer is pretty nice they and didn't note any other work or problems.


I guess if this keeps up and I replace that seeping TRE and everything seems to check out I'll have to adjust said bolt on top of the steering box to decrease the assist. I just have no idea what happened between me dropping it off and getting it back.

The mysteries of cruiser ownership

[PacToy]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

Randy,

My steering went from what I would call comfortable and a bit imprecise (read, there isn't really any feedback about the road through the wheel like you get in a small car) but city driving wasn't tiring and it was easy to stay in the center of the lane at 70 on the interstate.

Now at 70mph on the interstate the steering seems much more 'easy', it's akin to the way the electro steering setups in newer smaller cars work, just in reverse. In a newer RX or IS for example the electro assist is boosted a lot at low speeds so that you aren't clawing at the wheel to make a turn in the city, but when you cross a certain speed threshold the steering assist is lowered so that it doesn't feel darty and the vehicle does not wander.

With a bit of a breeze I was having to seriously focus to have acceptable lane manners. About 10degs either direction you could turn the wheel easily with just your pinky finger at 70mph. This leads to a very darty and difficult steering situation. I definitely need to get under the truck while a friend loads the steering components in both directions; I'll probably do it tomorrow because I'm driving home for easter and everybody else is already home

I know when they did the repack they did the usual FSM procedure; removed the rotors hubs and bearings, packed the hubs and bearings and reassembled. The dealer understood that I normally do PM myself and that this was the only thing I wanted them to do and to call me if they found something else major. I had both wheel bearings dry up and seize about 10k miles ago (previous owner was a little off about the last time they were repacked ) so I have new hubs, spindles, etc. The dealer is pretty nice they and didn't note any other work or problems.


I guess if this keeps up and I replace that seeping TRE and everything seems to check out I'll have to adjust said bolt on top of the steering box to decrease the assist. I just have no idea what happened between me dropping it off and getting it back.

The mysteries of cruiser ownership

I got a better understanding of what you feel is wrong. If it was me, I would go right after that bolt on top of the steering box and tighten up that worm gear real good. Should solve the problem. That is after you make sure the linkages are in good working order.

Trust me, I know about lack of PO PM on wheel bearings. Just helped a buddy out who actually had dust for wheel bearings. It was so neat I took pictures! What a nighmare that thing turned out to rebuild properly.

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by PacToy

Trust me, I know about lack of PO PM on wheel bearings. Just helped a buddy out who actually had dust for wheel bearings. It was so neat I took pictures! What a nighmare that thing turned out to rebuild properly.

Yeah, I was driving ~100 miles to the airport to fly to my brother's wedding when they started seizing up. Imagine how thrilled I was I obviously missed my flight and was stuck in SC with no possible way to fix my cruiser and about 60 miles from my original location. It turned out to be about a $3000 job at the dealer and the tech said he barely finished in the week I was gone. The bearings/races apparently all but welded themselves in and the tech was concerned it was going to require a torch


I'll tighten the worm gear down when I get home and see if that fixes it. Thanks for the tip Randy

[PacToy]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

Yeah, I was driving ~100 miles to the airport to fly to my brother's wedding when they started seizing up. Imagine how thrilled I was I obviously missed my flight and was stuck in SC with no possible way to fix my cruiser and about 60 miles from my original location. It turned out to be about a $3000 job at the dealer and the tech said he barely finished in the week I was gone. The bearings/races apparently all but welded themselves in and the tech was concerned it was going to require a torch

Not far off from what your mechanic stated to you. We had EVERYTHING new and a good spindle. We had to use a cold chisel and baby beater to cut and remove the 54mm nuts. They were in fact almost welded to the spindle. Took us a good half day to make it happen, FOR ONE SIDE. I was doing it right and it honestly took that time.

Your mechanic said a week, I bet he was bluffing for a bit of change and the fact he had other fixes coming in that demeanored your wait to a week.

Yes, unkept wheel bearings on a 80 do become a nightmare. I can see $3k easily in the situation you speak of.

[NaterGator]

Randy's tip paid off.

Tightened up said center adjustment on the top of the steering box and my steering no longer feels light as a feather. Muuch better. The lock nut was barely hand tight so I suspect that was a problem

The slack in my TREs is so great that they make quite a click noise when the steering loads opposite sides. They definitely need to be replaced in the near future.

Thanks for the leads and tips all, and thanks for the ultimate solution Randy

[PacToy]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

Randy's tip paid off.

Tightened up said center adjustment on the top of the steering box and my steering no longer feels light as a feather. Muuch better. The lock nut was barely hand tight so I suspect that was a problem

The slack in my TREs is so great that they make quite a click noise when the steering loads opposite sides. They definitely need to be replaced in the near future.

Thanks for the leads and tips all, and thanks for the ultimate solution Randy

No worries, Nate. I was happy that I could still go through the process of elimination in my brain housing group that morning and give you my best solution to answer your question that morning. Kind of killed my morning buzz though.

I have a bit of a clicking noise coming from my PS front. I swore it was the TREs and therefore replaced them only to find out that the coil was slightly moving about in the upper coil bucket. Just a thought to throw out there.

Im sure I will have questions for you about electronics, Nate. I hate them but I see your good at them.

[Guambomb]

After my repack/ome lift and seal replacement last week, I experienced extremely sensitive steering wheel play like you. I'm in Guam right now but when I get back next week I'll have to check out that bolt as well. Glad I saw this thread.

[jonheld]

I would check the toe in/out adjustment or at least see if the tie rod ends were molested in any way. These trucks like a bit of toe in and without it they can get a bit "darty" at highway speed.

Also check the tire pressures. I've seen some whacky things coming out of a dealership.

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by Guambomb

After my repack/ome lift and seal replacement last week, I experienced extremely sensitive steering wheel play like you. I'm in Guam right now but when I get back next week I'll have to check out that bolt as well. Glad I saw this thread.

If you haven't installed the OME bushings yet do that first. The steering is darty with an OME lift and not caster correction.

Originally Posted by jonheld

I would check the toe in/out adjustment or at least see if the tie rod ends were molested in any way. These trucks like a bit of toe in and without it they can get a bit "darty" at highway speed.

Also check the tire pressures. I've seen some whacky things coming out of a dealership.

Jon I'll be on the rack pretty soon to check alignment.

Tire pressure was one of the first things I checked.... all unchanged at 35psi.

[fishwater]

nate,
how much did you turn the adjusting screw on top of the steering box? 1/4 turn? full 360? more?
the FSM just says to turn "in small increments"...
just not sure how much "small" is.
thanks,
blumer

[NaterGator]

The locking nut was pretty loose from the get go (probably part of the problem) and the adjustment screw gave some resistance. I'm not sure how far I ultimately turned it (hard to see) but I'd guess between 1/4 and 1/2 a turn? I was using a ratchet drive so....

[fishwater]

gotcha. i was thinking "small" meant less than a full turn, but wasn't sure and wanted to know what your experience was.
thanks!

[Guambomb]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

If you haven't installed the OME bushings yet do that first. The steering is darty with an OME lift and not caster correction.

Jon I'll be on the rack pretty soon to check alignment.

Tire pressure was one of the first things I checked.... all unchanged at 35psi.

Bushings/caster kit were installed. My tire pressure was set at 38psi. Thanks for the tips. I'll try a slight turn on the bolt and if that doesn't make it feel better, off to the best alignment place in town.

[NaterGator]

A quick cautionary word of warning:
I don't fully understand what adjusting this bolt actually does (maybe Randy can comment?) but I do know the FSM specifies a specific procedure for setting it as well as a specification that is supposed to be measured while setting it. So there is a 'correct' spot for this adjustment, and I don't know if deviating from that sweet spot for personal preference is going to harm anything.

[PacToy]

Nate,

I wish I could comment with some authority on all the aspects of the steering box and the bolt but I cant and I dont want to put it out there in writing as gospel. It was explained to me in good detail a few years ago while I was stationed on Okinawa by Shane (BJ-44). I have used it a couple of times on a couple of my cruisers.

What I do remember is that the bolt on the box is there for this exact reason and at some point the bolt will stop turning and that is the end of the steering box as far as gathering up slack goes. Obviously on average these steering boxes last a LONG time before this bolt needs revisiting.

[NaterGator]

Either way in the FSM it describes preload on the worm gear valve body shaft... seems like it may ultimately control steering assist pressure. It cured my problem and there are no funny noises or burnt fluids or anything. It seems like a perfectly safe change to make, just do it in small steps if you are going to do it

[1000-oaks]

As I recall that adjustment screw physically moves the gears in the worm gear assembly closer together, kind of like setting your ring & pinion with less backlash.

[NaterGator]

Steering has slowly started to get light again.

Looked under the PS cap....erm it is quite void of PS fluid (no whine though). That would explain the copious oily undercarriage I've got. I'll top off and investigate the leaky pump after summer.