[ats4x4dotcom]

Originally Posted by landtank

Then why post this picture? He could just take one of his new springs out of a box and photo that.

I thought this was a discussion of the suspension he had on his truck and how it is better suited for the 80 and that pic was to illustrate that. I merely pointed out that the pic didn't accurately illustrate the flex gotten from those springs and how I knew.

And why post a pic of a patrol when he owns the 80 the springs are on?

But I'll stay out of it. Nay, let me know when you get a set of springs and shocks from this guy.

Landtank,

That pic was what I had in my photobucket library, that was available from home on the day, I wasnt at work, did we run 4wding pressures in the tyres, sure we did, nothing wrong with that in our opinion, as we do it every time we go wheeling, simple really.

The patrol also runs an alomost same/same coil, in a very similar set up to cruiser, in the front, and rear, so it is pretty relevent.

As for Bilsteins, given you asked, it was only you we didnt sell them too, Im a firm believer in being able to pick and choose your customers.

Now, as for staying out of it, I hope you do, because the last thing I want in this thread, is your type of pissing and moaning attitude so far, so please do stay out of it, if you cant control yourself.

PM me if you have a problem with that, but dont continue it here.

OK, back to normal programming.


I have been speaking with SLEE about the suspension program, and we have done all the research and development for these already, so they dont go to market until its a complete set up, ready to go, which we have, and Christo already has alot of parts to complete, and the second coil rates are just adding to existing product lines, that make the package work.

Now, are the coils dearer, yes, steel is sold by weight, so the more steel you use, the dearer the coil gets, are they value for money?, well, the way we have trouble keeping stock of them, I would say the customers are voting with thier wallets.

Also, the fox are a 2.0, and we change bushes, and shaft ends, and valving to make them bolt on options for patrol, and cruiser. We also do install kits for smoothie and double/triple bypass shocks, but they arent "bolt on".

I would suggest contacting Christo to discuss, info@sleeoffroad.com if this set up is interesting for you, I dont want this thread to become an advertorial either, rather an information process, which helps feed the "outside the square" thinking, for making a good truck better, so
Im more than happy to give out what details we learn from these projects, and I think its in everyones interest to keep the thread on topic, and rolling in the correct direction, and thanks to those who have done so, so far.

Next update soon.

[Nay]

Originally Posted by Bikeman

This may step on some toes. The US market is thriving for this stuff, but from old topics/posts, ATS looks (appears) unwilling to export these items. Could also be that some importers are so stuck on OME (no offense to anyone).

Maybe we need to try to get some of the newer expedition/overlander supply companies popping up to work directly with the manufacturers in other parts of the world to get the valving right on a shock and to get these new-generation coil springs and parts into the US.

It could benefit the heavily-loaded and some of the recent lightweight-built 80's as well.

This is my point. There are US coil manufacturers that can make the best coils in the world. This type of coil can be produced in the US and sold here in combination with high end shocks like Fox or the high end Bilsteins, etc. Any person here could have coils like this built just like ATS has done, but you will pay the trial and error costs (as I am sure he has done).

The question is why nobody brings it to market, and the answer is economics. It is expensive to produce this kind of coil, expensive to sell these kind of shocks, hard to convince the mass market to massage a $50K SUV with a hammer, and make any business case out of it.. This is a tuners market.

What is needed, IMO, for the tuners is the baseline springs rather than the buffet of crap that we get at high import prices relative to value through the ARB channel. Everything else is readily available. A 4.5" spring with this essential design characteristic for an eye to eye shock conversion for a 12" travel shock would be the ideal platform for getting out of the box on a 37" tire, and it doesn't exist in our market. All we largely have is a series of coils that change rate based on coil diameter and height for stated load bearing ranges.

This is why I say for today, if you don't want to go custom but you do want this general approach, get the FOR springs and go high end on the shocks to tune it for control and fade resistance without ending up with a brick on a rig that doesn't have all the heavy accessories. You just have to stick with ~10" travel rather than 12".

I'd like to prove this point for myself with a set of those 7100's, but as I said in the other thread, I just blew my 80 budget for the year on caster correction and a new stereo, so tuning this suspension will have to wait for 2009.

[ats4x4dotcom]

Nay,

The coil design we are using I have tested over the last 2 years, doing the most remote trip you can do in a vehicle pretty much, in Aus, with the vehicle weighing over 4 tonne [8800lb] carrying 300 lt of fuel, 120lt of water, and food for 2 weeks between civilisation, and we did 5000 miles on that trip, mostly off road, only averaging 100 miles a day for some days, in low range, in 8 hrs of driving, and we did it in 4 weeks, as well as sitting on 100 mph loaded, with 20 psi in the tyres [to prevent punctures] on outback dirt roads in between desert sections, as well as doing the hardest trip i have ever seen, on suspension, driving for 10 days in 1st and 2nd low range mostly over spinifex, across the madigan line, in the simpson desert, a trip most who do, say they would never do again, which is maxamising travel opposite corners most 1/2 to full car thength forward with 37" tyres, a big lift, aftermarket fox shocks, all the things everyone says dont work out there, we did, and across 19 cars in those 2 trips, we did suspension on 15, and we didnt have one failure of our equipment out there, though the nissan chassis on mine did tear a coil tower off the chassis on one trip, but nissans do that.

We also did many minor weekend and week trips into the mountains, out to the Fliders ranges, and continually monitoring, and watching, as it was also my daily driver, and tuning what we did, and do, because if the car doesnt drive nice, covering 900+ miles a day for a few days each way, sealed, and mostly not, when heading out to do remote trips, its not fun, and I have always been big on the car being easy, and nice to drive, and being able to carry the momentum you need to get over an obstacle, when you need it.

I am now completing this process with the next set of coil rates, and on another vehicle, and your right, it all costs money, but I started doing what I do, because I got sick of hearing "you cant do that" " never done that before" "why would you do that" when ever I wanted to spend my own money with a company, and order specifically what i wanted, without asking how much, to prove what works.

And this thread will be used to document what we do, how it works, or doesnt, and what we are doing to tune it. You dont sell these type of kits to the average consumer, as you said "tuners market" and because I have been the customer who knows what he wants, and had trouble getting it made, I enjoy filling that void for others out there with the same issues.

If your not passionate about your work, your in the wrong job

[Lugboot]

I, for one, really like this possibility of a more driveable unloaded rig with the benefit of having additional load-carrying capacity. I drive a lot of dirt roads, grew up driving dirt roads, and my OME Heavies don't make the experience as secure and fun as it should be . . . unless i have a bunch of additional wieght in the truck, which adds its own challenges. And even on pavement, the unloaded rig rides pretty harsh.

It wouldn't bother me to mod the control arm brackets at the frame end to move the axle forward or any of this other stuff. It would be so worth it to own an 80 that'll handle the way I want it to in the majority of my driving situations.

[FJBen]

Like everyone has said, it's all about availability and options.

Jeep has this market and has tons of options. It would be great to see some more suspension options for the 80.

Alright Nay, lets get some custom springs made I'm up for testing

[CreeperSleeper]

I want this suspension set-up, but I want it before Nay... What do I gotta do?

Seriously, awesome build. I was telling my wife this weekend that I was almost to the end of what is mass marketed and that I was going to be forced to "tune" my suspension by trial and error. This buildup will make that a lot easier!

[ats4x4dotcom]

Originally Posted by CreeperSleeper

I want this suspension set-up, but I want it before Nay... What do I gotta do?

Get me some cruiser crap black bottle openers with land cruiser on them, to Christo, to send to me, when you pick the bits up, and you could be in with a show

[FJBen]

I'm tempted to go FOR but I really like the 4" height. aesthetically and performance wise. I'm not extremely heavy, but I'd like the ability to carry weight when need be.

I made some extensions for the rear shocks on my old cruiser but yours are much slicker

I'm very intrigued by this setup and how it performs. Get some product in the US! and I'll run it

[Riad]

Very nice! So what color are you putting on the shortbus bumper?

[Bikeman]

Darren,

Unless I missed it, are you doing anything or need to do anything to the front drive shaft?

[Dusty]

neat stuff

however
37's (36" actual in my case with swampers) on 4" of lift will rub hard in the front (against the radiator support) with stuffage and mild turning even if you extend the bumps 2". if you move the front axle forward it gets worse. This is indapendant of any rubbing at the fender. In my experience. how much bump stop extension is there? and if there is enough stop extension to prevent rubbage and there are 37" on only 4" lift with flares, where is all the uptravel coming from?

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Dusty

if you move the front axle forward it gets worse.

He's technically not moving the axle forward of the factory position but compensating for how he addressed caster.

When you press in CC bushings the standard way of 1 up and 1 down it doesn't rotate the axle but more accurately tilts it. So the axle's center moves closer to the frame bracket shortening the distance between the two. He then compounded this by elongating the front hole of the axle bracket and further tilted the axle back shortening that distance even more.

So by using the plate with the alignment dowel and drilling a new hole forward of the original he has basically compensated for that axle shift rearward.

Assuming he's done his homework the tire will now be more closely centered to the wheel well and should avoid other issues like the springs hitting the bump stop tower.

[ats4x4dotcom]

Originally Posted by landtank

Assuming he's done his homework yada yada yada..............

Now, as for staying out of it, I hope you do, because the last thing I want in this thread, is your type of pissing and moaning attitude so far, so please do stay out of it, if you cant control yourself.

PM me if you have a problem with that, but dont continue it here.

I never got a PM from you, ....... so, follow the rules, simple, change your attitude, or dont post in this thread.


Ok, back to normal programming again,



Alot has to do with rim offset also, as well as adjusting the panhard to centre a little better when compressed, for scrubbing, and we made sure we could get what we wanted with the rims as well to help.

Thats what this project is about, measuring, thinking, making, and applying, and weighing the up, and down sides once applied.

Also, the front drive shaft needs no modification, that i can see at this stage, even at full droop.

[landtank]

I believe my attitude is just fine and didn't feel comfortable stating for sure the axle was in the correct position since I can only assume you did it correctly.

feel free to take your assessment of that post to the mods.

[Atticus]

Chat.

[FirstToy]

if it were your buildup thread that was thrown into the muck, wouldn't it be disappointing? I just want to see pics and descriptions on the topic, what Darren is building up.

[Junk]

Originally Posted by Walking Eagle

Take a chill pill. There was absolutely no attitude in landtank's post. Quite a bit in yours though. I must have missed the rule where non-moderators can tell people not to post.



Now this is a pissy attitude. It's also a personal attack - which I know the moderators frown on (a little personal experience ).

Landtank made an observation - the extreme low pressure on those tires makes the flex look more extreme. It's an observation, it's also true. It's also easy for me to tell from my own observation if that was trail pressure around here, those pretty rims wouldn't last an hour, and you'd likely loose a bead within two.

Landtank made another observation - because of the way the axle is rotated with the caster correction, moving the axle forward a slight amount doesn't put it forward of stock it only returns it to stock. Also a true statement. Only he left out that since the radius arms are at more of an angle when they hit the bumpstop than stock, that brings the axle back a bit too, but I'll forgive him that one.

I don't see a problem with tank's attitude on either of those posts, but I do think your reaction to them is overboard.

Looks like walking bird shoudl have sent a PM instead of posting

ats - only thing I'd change so far is ditching the color

Good to see you continuing to push the envelope past known limits again. This is the type of creativity that without, folks would still be driving around on the original standard OMEs.

Please keep the pics and posts coming.

[Atticus]

Originally Posted by Junk

Looks like walking bird shoudl have sent a PM instead of posting

ats - only thing I'd change so far is ditching the color

Good to see you continuing to push the envelope past known limits again. This is the type of creativity that without, folks would still be driving around on the original standard OMEs.

Please keep the pics and posts coming.

I agree. This is a very interesting thread from a tech perspective.

[cruiserdan]

This is particularly pertinant to me with the aqusition of my wife's project truck.

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by Atticus

I agree. This is a very interesting thread from a tech perspective.

here here....lets get back to tech and less

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

This is particularly pertinant to me with the aqusition of my wife's project truck.

do we have a new thread topic here?

[cruiserdan]

Just about. She has the truck and we are mapping out repairs and suspension now.

She wanted a truck to "wheel like she stole it" and mine was not a viable candidate....


So, she and I are colaborating on a trail rig for her use.

I am keenly interested in Darren's new direction.

[CreeperSleeper]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

Just about. She has the truck and we are mapping out repairs and suspension now.

She wanted a truck to "wheel like she stole it" and mine was not a viable candidate....


So, she and I are colaborating on a trail rig for her use.

I am keenly interested in Darren's new direction.

Sounds like the way I wheel!

[landtank]

back to tech

For the most part with FOR suspensions and here with Darren's the use of CC bushings seems to be accepted.

I would think that their use would be one of the first things to be avoided. They are less flexible, prone to faster wear and on par with cost of other methods that retain the use of the stock bushing. And here where Darren went the extra mile to compensate for axle shift the work involved would also seem greater.

So what's the deal? I thought the idea was to have the same or better flex of traditional springs but in a different range and wouldn't it also be desirable to continue the use of stock bushings?

[FJBen]

Originally Posted by ats4x4.com

In the rear, we are using a 12.5" stroke shock, that is also close to fully compressed when car is on bump stops, so I get maximum droop from the shock length Im using, when the bump spacers are installed, to help fit the tyres

I might have missed, but you are getting the full use out the 12.5" shock WITH the swaybar on? What level did you drop your swaybar? and is there some formula that you use to determine other than trying different lengths trial/error?

<<<EDIT>>>>

definitely interested to see how you will get the front to use the 12" travel as well.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Walking Eagle

funnny, you posted that up while I was writing much the same thing....

Ya, it just seems strange to me that people are going to great expense with these new variable springs and shocks and then basically cutting them off at the knees with CC bushings.

[Romer]

Darren I like what your doing to your truck

Lets keep it tech here guys. Remind me to keep both Darren and Rick out of the Glass house, two bulls butting heads would cause a lot of damage

I would personally appreciate it if niether of you would engage the other.

[ats4x4dotcom]

Originally Posted by Junk

Looks like walking bird shoudl have sent a PM instead of posting

ats - only thing I'd change so far is ditching the color

Good to see you continuing to push the envelope past known limits again. This is the type of creativity that without, folks would still be driving around on the original standard OMEs.

Please keep the pics and posts coming.

I agree on the color, wasnt my first pick, but, when its cheap, I can live with it. black top section, dark silver bottom may come, when it gets cut into a ute some time in the future though


As for the CC bushes, we use a specific brand, great on duro, and thats why we only use 2 deg, and not 3 deg, because what your talking about Landtank, is correct with 3 deg or cheaper stiffer bushes, and can limit travel, and even cause housing cracks. To get maximum travel from the bushes, I have drilled holes in them before, giving them more movement, and duro doesnt seem to be effected much wioth std rubber ones, but the CC poly ones, even the good quality ones we use, dont like extra holes in them.

Axle relocation actually has nothing to do with the CC bushes.

The pic of my patrol, on the ramp at the 4wd show here, which uses same bushes as cruiser, and siliar arms and spring/shock design, has CC bushes fitted in that pic and that vehicle had 10" stroke shocks, using all 10" of stroke in its articulation.

I do have a plan B, which I have done before, to make the arms flex more, if the full twist of the shock stroke cant be used, but Im starting with the basics, so we can document it, and move to the next step.

cruiserdanShe wanted a truck to "wheel like she stole it" and mine was not a viable candidate....

Dont leave the keys laying around Dan, or she might just do both, steal it, and wheel it

Short bus bar is on, and I went black gloss for now, may color code it to car, when rear Slee bar and wheel carrier arrive later, sliders will also be black.

Some elec work, VIV inspection, and ready for reg at the moment, so will have some more pics shortly, then once reg is done, we get out the plasma and welder again, heading down the beach for a BBQ breakfast for the wifes birthday in it Saturday, the down side of this is the rings I had to get made for her birthday, and wedding ann 3 days later, after the vehicles I have spent money on so far this year

[ats4x4dotcom]

Those "pretty" rims, were pretty tough actually, and even beadlocked, [I thought your keen eagle eye may of spotted that] Robby Gordon rims werent the best, but the beadlocks survived, unlike Walker evans or Allied beadlocks we tried, so losing a bead, pretty difficult, the car was on display, at a 4wd show, i dont think anyone said the tyres werent helping........though the vehicle will go over the 1000 RTI on road pressures, 25 deg ramp, sway bars connected.

[cruiserdan]

Darren if you need some "remote testing" for some of those bits I know just the person....

Petrol and red so the test bed should be fairly even...