[Bear80]

After lifting an 80 series past a certain point and or correcting the front castor to account for the lift, a double cardan (DC) joint drive shaft will be needed. Slee Off-Road offers an excellent solution with all new quality Spicer joints and also a local drive shaft shop can make any custom shaft for your needs. However, my personal preference is to keep with Toyota Koyo joints AND half the price of a new shaft. There is a Toyota solution for both the front AND rear of the 80 series.

Double cardan shafts for the front
The most common has been to find a rear shaft off an '95.5-'04 extra or double cab Tacoma. The bolt patterns will match at both the pinion and t-case, however the Tacoma shaft is longer in length. A competent drive shaft shop can easily re-tube it to the needed length. The other solution is to use the rear shaft off an '00-'07 Tundra extra cab, which will also need to be shortened. Both solutions are cheap, costing half the price of a new shaft and you will have Koyo joints.

Here is the Trundra shaft on the front t-case:



Double cardan shafts for the rear
Keep in mind that the bolt pattern and bolts on the rear shaft of the Land Cruiser are BIGGER than the front. It is possible to use a rear shaft off an '96-'02 4x4 4Runner. The bolt pattern will ONLY match at the t-case. The 4Runner uses a smaller slip yoke and flange at the pinion. The only solution is to have a drive shaft shop re-tube the shaft with a new slip yoke and flange to match the Land Cruiser's pinion OR cannibalize your original shaft for the slip yoke and flange. This shouldn't be much more trouble since the 4runner shaft is longer and needs to be cut down anyway. This would also be the time to use thicker tubing.

Here is the 4Runner shaft on the rear t-case:


-----------------------
Also the front shaft from a pre-'84 FJ60 will not idealy work in the rear becuase a change in flange designs. Front shafts off a pre-tacoma or '84-'95 4Runner will also not work on either the front or rear of the 80 series. However, the DC joints from these shafts can be used if the LC's tube with slip yoke flange is matted to then. Then the flange(s) on the t-case must be drilled to accept the new bolt pattern from these joints. I would consider this a less than ideal solution but no less a possiblity.

[Bear80]

Here is a shot of the drive shafts next to each other. From left to right: front 80 series, rear Tundra, rear 80 series, and rear 4Runner.

[cruiserman]

Why doesn't the 86 to 95 truck/4Runner shaft work? Different bolt pattern? That can be fixed.

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by cruiserman

Why doesn't the 86 to 95 truck/4Runner shaft work? Different bolt pattern? That can be fixed.

The flange on the cardan joint for those shafts have a slightly wider bolt pattern than the front but yet still smaller than the rear.

The DC joint from these shafts can be used if new holes are drilled on the t-case output flange. This isn't ideal but a possiblity.

[Tennessee80]

I don't understand why 80s werent built with DC shafts in the first place, or am I misunderstanding something. Forgive me if I am, just trying to learn....

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Tennessee80

I don't understand why 80s werent built with DC shafts in the first place, or am I misunderstanding something. Forgive me if I am, just trying to learn....

Stock 80s don't need a DC shaft. But when you lift the truck and correct the caster enough the front one does. As far as the rear goes I'm not aware of it needing one unless you pivot the diff with adjustable arms.

[Bear80]

Rick beat me, but he is correct. However, in my rear with the amount of lift the pinion is pointed almost dead at the t-case. I could put in upper arm adjusters but after adjusted, even if they are perfectly matched, there will be some vibration and increased wear on the u-joints. The best solution for me is to leave the upper arms alone and make a double cardan shaft. I will acutally come out about the same as the cost of just the upper arm adjusters alone, so it's a no brainer for me.

[simonliew]

How many inches of lift till you get vibration?
l have 2.5" now,and l have a set of J springs that l am thinking of trying.
Simon

[Bear80]

It depends due to how the castor is also corrected, not just hight.

[landtank]

Originally Posted by simonliew

How many inches of lift till you get vibration?
l have 2.5" now,and l have a set of J springs that l am thinking of trying.
Simon

It's not so much the amount of lift but the amount caster correction. If you did no caster correction you could go 6"+ without vibs, it would be a challenge driving it and probably would have death wobble.

Js on a truck with little to no additional weight ends up being at a height where caster plates should be used which then sets up the axle for a DV Shaft.

Js on a heavily weighted truck might get away with Slee's blue bushings and no need for a DC shaft.

[azzzuki]

Just what i was lookin for, thanks. I will start looking for a Tundra drive shaft ASAP.............................................. ...............................

[simonliew]

Js and OME bushings right now.
How many degrees diference between the Slee's blue and OME ?
Simon

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by simonliew

Js and OME bushings right now.
How many degrees diference between the Slee's blue and OME ?
Simon

Please keep this thread on track. There are numerous threads dealing with your question that a simple search will return.

[Tennessee80]

what is the best way to obtain either a tundra, taco, or 4runner shaft for the front of an 80, junkyard?

[landtank]

Originally Posted by Tennessee80

what is the best way to obtain either a tundra, taco, or 4runner shaft for the front of an 80, junkyard?

That is where I got mine. You'll want to do a physical inspection of the shaft as I had a hard time getting one with a yoke on the end. Seems that it's a common fatality in a bad accident and the newer trucks were all bad accident vehicles. These were Tacoma shafts.

Even The Tacoma shafts need to be shortened but since they have a balloon tube it needs to be re-tubed anyway. Mine where done at a compressed length of 31".

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by Tennessee80

what is the best way to obtain either a tundra, taco, or 4runner shaft for the front of an 80, junkyard?

I assume your question is just meant to be all encompassing but remember the 4Runner shaft is for the REAR. However, any of the shafts should run from $40-$80 depending on the junk yard. From my experience so far, it seems some of the u-joints at the slipe yoke ends tend to have a hard spot in them. If this is the case, I would recommend picking up a new NAPA u-joint for $18. The NAPA u-joints are made by GMB in Japan and carry a life time warranty. These are also the same joints Man-a-fre sells for slightly more money.

[davegonz]

Bear,

How about a 60 series front double cardan? I run one in my rig and it solved my rear vibe issues. I bought the front shaft from a buddy and had the drive train shop weld it up. I used a transfer punch set and drilled out a new set of holes.

[Tennessee80]

Thanks for the info, Bear and Landtank. I might be needing to do this soon, as I have driveline vibes after caster plates. The truck is at 2.5 + in caster so I am not complaining about handling! I am getting some noise in front....This retrofitted driveshaft technique sounds good. I will do some local searching on this matter.

cheers

[davegonz]

Originally Posted by Bear80

Like you pointed out it is possible but I for one would rather not have to drill new holes on the t-case and pinion flages. The fj60 shaft still needs to be lengthened right? When the 4Runner shaft is re-tubed shorter it's simple for a shop to repalce the slip yoke with that of the 80 series. This way it's bolt on and ensured a perfect, balanced fit.

You only need to drill a new set of holes on the output flange. I reused my existing drive shaft and had the drive train shop chop and weld on the 60 series DC joint. It was really easy to do. Just another option.

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by davegonz

You only need to drill a new set of holes on the output flange. I reused my existing drive shaft and had the drive train shop chop and weld on the 60 series DC joint. It was really easy to do. Just another option.

Ah, that makes more sense now. However, it's pretty much the same thing with the 4runner shaft but the 4runner DC joint bolts right on. Would you mind taking a picture or two and adding it to this thread? I suppose a similar technique could be used then to make the DC joint from the '83-'95 truck/4runners work. -- I updated my original post to refect this. --

[Lugboot]

Would a front 60-series DC shaft work to build a front 80-series DC shaft?

[NaterGator]

Originally Posted by landtank

It's not so much the amount of lift but the amount caster correction. If you did no caster correction you could go 6"+ without vibs, it would be a challenge driving it and probably would have death wobble.

Js on a truck with little to no additional weight ends up being at a height where caster plates should be used which then sets up the axle for a DV Shaft.

Js on a heavily weighted truck might get away with Slee's blue bushings and no need for a DC shaft.

LT,

Are the death wobbles induced by positive caster? I know -3* is roughly in spec, but it would seem to me +3* would have the same net effect on steering 'twitchiness' but I could see it causing problems with the high speed 'death wobble'. I'll be the first to admit I don't understand suspension geometry quite like you and christo and the gang

[landtank]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

LT,

Are the death wobbles induced by positive caster? I know -3* is roughly in spec, but it would seem to me +3* would have the same net effect on steering 'twitchiness' but I could see it causing problems with the high speed 'death wobble'. I'll be the first to admit I don't understand suspension geometry quite like you and christo and the gang

Actually +3* is ideal (spec is +2*~+4*). Most steering issues as death wobble and tracking issues comes from too low a caster. I'm not sure of too high as that's not easily gotten from lifting a truck. But I would imagine you would have increased steering effort and some strange tire wear.

With all the solutions now available it's really a simple task to get your caster in spec.

[NaterGator]

Well I am wondering what the harm would be in achieving the same amount of caster in the opposite direction? As I understand it +3 caster means the axis through which the wheels turn left/right is 3* up from the front side of the axle (in other words hypothetical 90* caster would cause the top of the wheel to act like the front)

If there is no death wobble issue, I guess I don't see much of an issue with letting the truck get all the way to -3* caster? Does that make sense? It is like reflecting the original effect across the axis parallel to the road.

Evidently that doesn't work though, I'm just wondering why.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by davegonz

You only need to drill a new set of holes on the output flange. I reused my existing drive shaft and had the drive train shop chop and weld on the 60 series DC joint. It was really easy to do. Just another option.

If you are talking about the transfer case output flange, that will not work without a lot of effort. It uses studs pressed into the flange. You would have to take the transfer case apart to get the flange off, press the studs out and then re-drill.

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

If you are talking about the transfer case output flange, that will not work without a lot of effort. It uses studs pressed into the flange. You would have to take the transfer case apart to get the flange off, press the studs out and then re-drill.

That's what I assumed, but I'm still waiting to see pictures of exactly what he has done.

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by NaterGator

Well I am wondering what the harm would be in achieving the same amount of caster in the opposite direction? As I understand it +3 caster means the axis through which the wheels turn left/right is 3* up from the front side of the axle (in other words hypothetical 90* caster would cause the top of the wheel to act like the front)

If there is no death wobble issue, I guess I don't see much of an issue with letting the truck get all the way to -3* caster? Does that make sense? It is like reflecting the original effect across the axis parallel to the road.

Evidently that doesn't work though, I'm just wondering why.

Caster angle settings balance steering effort, high speed stability and front end cornering effectiveness. Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, it makes the steering return to center. Negative caster makes the steering want to turn, at high speed it causes what I call "herding sheep", requires constant steering input to keep the truck on a straight track.

Death wobble is the front axle self steering in a short arc, causing a vibration and the steering wheel to jerk back and forth violently. Excessive positive caster is most often the root cause. It's normally started by a bump and/or braking event causing the steering to move from center, the strong return to center effect causes it to overshoot on return, then it has to return again from the other direction, overshoots, repeat and you have death wobble. It can be caused by excessive negative caster, but is more rare and needs to be way out of spec for it to happen.

Death wobble is often associated with or will shortly cause, loose suspension components. A suspension setup that has close to 0 caster is much more tolerant of loose suspension components, softer bushings, etc, more caster requires a tighter setup.

Caster spec varies greatly with suspension, tire, etc, type and setup. In the old days of bias ply tires some cars even called for negative caster, bias ply tires cause some return to center effect and the manufacturer wanted easy steering. Swap to radial tires and the car would be all over the road, add some caster and it’s driving good.

In my experience with the 80, I am most happy with a small amount of positive caster. I have driven it with negative (not recommended), bushing corrected w/OME 2.5” springs and w/J’s. Now it sets at 24.5” hub to flare and on the arms that I made I shot for the most caster possible and overshot for my liking. It requires more steering effort than necessary to hold the steering turned in high speed turns and tends to wobble. Have replaced most of the bushings and know right away when something is even slightly loose. On the new arms I will shoot for about 1 degree of positive caster. Suspension settings are somewhat personal preference, some like “tight” settings, I prefer a somewhat looser setup, just enough to provide stability and turn more easily.

[NaterGator]

Tools, thanks man

So to summarize, if I understand you correctly, having negative caster (the steering axis turned slightly down at the front) is what causes the wandering effect at speed, and positive caster (axis turned slightly up at the front) causes the self-centering effect? So a 6" lift, even if it brought the caster to an opposite spec (-3*) would be difficult to drive because of wandering.

Wouldn't you need caster around that mark though to get the right pinion angle for a DC shaft (without cutting and turning everything which would be nigh on impossible)

[theyis]

Originally Posted by Tools R Us

Death wobble is the front axle self steering in a short arc, causing a vibration and the steering wheel to jerk back and forth violently. Excessive positive caster is most often the root cause. It's normally started by a bump and/or braking event causing the steering to move from center, the strong return to center effect causes it to overshoot on return, then it has to return again from the other direction, overshoots, repeat and you have death wobble. It can be caused by excessive negative caster, but is more rare and needs to be way out of spec for it to happen.

Hey Tools,

Are you sure that is right? I have always used my motorcycle to help me understand the geometry and I thought death wobble (or a tank slapper in motorcycle terms) was from close to 0 castor, not too much positive. Take a chopper for instance. Steering is very slow but tracks straight. I don't think I have ever heard of a chopper having a tank slapper. Now take a sport bike like mine with a very steep steering angle. The steering is very quick but t the cost of straight line stability. Ideally, you would run at 0 degrees to make the steering as quick as possible but you can't since you would suffer from tank slappers (or total steering instability) all the time. That's how I understood it but of course I could be completely wrong or maybe there is something else at play so the motorcycle analogy doesn't work well.

Kyon

[Lugboot]

I'd like to get back closer to the thread topic and back to my original question about using a front DC shaft from a 60-series to make a front DC shaft for an 80-series. I was reading Bear80's original post again about the differing flange sizes on the front and rear of the 80 and perhaps I answered my own question.

If the 60-series DC shaft will work for a rear 80-series shaft (with mods), then that means it works with the larger flange size in the back of the 80-series. Which also means it probably won't work with the smaller flange size in the front of the 80-series. Any input on this one?

Thanks!