[theyis]

Originally Posted by Bear80

Rick beat me, but he is correct. However, in my rear with the amount of lift the pinion is pointed almost dead at the t-case. I could put in upper arm adjusters but after adjusted, even if they are perfectly matched, there will be some vibration and increased wear on the u-joints. The best solution for me is to leave the upper arms alone and make a double cardan shaft. I will acutally come out about the same as the cost of just the upper arm adjusters alone, so it's a no brainer for me.

Dang, forgot to add this to the last reply...

So for my understanding can you clarify? I thought the adjustable upper arms were to make the pinion point at the t-case (i.e. make them longer). There usually isn't a need for the DC shaft in the rear because the shaft is longer and thus less angled at the t-case than the front. Am I thinking right?

Kyon

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by Lugboot

If the 60-series DC shaft will work for a rear 80-series shaft (with mods), then that means it works with the larger flange size in the back of the 80-series. Which also means it probably won't work with the smaller flange size in the front of the 80-series. Any input on this one.

The 60 series shaft ONLY shares the use of the larger bolts. Since the bolt patterns are different the shaft WILL NOT bolt to either the t-case or pinion.

The ORIGNIAL 80's shaft can be cut and the DC joint from the 60 series added. However, the flange on the t-case must be re-drilled and the studs placed in the new holes. I assume this is what davegonz has done. I would then assume a similar thing can be done to make it work on the front of the 80 series. Actually for this same method a better choice would be to use a DC joint from a '83-'95 mini truck on the front since it uses the smaller bolt sizes.

This IMO this is NOT an ideal meathod. Using the rear shaft of a 4Runner ensures a PERFECT t-case match on the rear of the LC. The whole purpose is to keep this a Toyota BOLT ON solution, although a drive line shop still is involved.

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by theyis

Dang, forgot to add this to the last reply...

So for my understanding can you clarify? I thought the adjustable upper arms were to make the pinion point at the t-case (i.e. make them longer). There usually isn't a need for the DC shaft in the rear because the shaft is longer and thus less angled at the t-case than the front. Am I thinking right?

Kyon

With a big lift you will probably need adjustable arms to get proper geometry for ether type of shaft. Mine is 25" hub to flair and the pinion is about half way between pointed at the transfer flange and parallel to it. Also the CV end is effectively longer, so when it's installed the pinion will need to be pointed slightly higher than "pointed at the transfer flange" for correct geometry. Your looking for diff pinion close to the same angle as the drive shaft tube.

To have a CV shaft made you only need the CV end, just have your slip end welded to the other end. This allows buying shafts that are bent, etc, most of the time the yards see then as much less valuable.

[theyis]

Originally Posted by Tools R Us

With a big lift you will probably need adjustable arms to get proper geometry for ether type of shaft. Mine is 25" hub to flair and the pinion is about half way between pointed at the transfer flange and parallel to it. Also the CV end is effectively longer, so when it's installed the pinion will need to be pointed slightly higher than "pointed at the transfer flange" for correct geometry. Your looking for diff pinion close to the same angle as the drive shaft tube.

To have a CV shaft made you only need the CV end, just have your slip end welded to the other end. This allows buying shafts that are bent, etc, most of the time the yards see then as much less valuable.

Okay, that's what I thought. Thanks!

[Tools R Us]

Originally Posted by theyis

Hey Tools,

Are you sure that is right? I have always used my motorcycle to help me understand the geometry and I thought death wobble (or a tank slapper in motorcycle terms) was from close to 0 castor, not too much positive. Take a chopper for instance. Steering is very slow but tracks straight. I don't think I have ever heard of a chopper having a tank slapper. Now take a sport bike like mine with a very steep steering angle. The steering is very quick but t the cost of straight line stability. Ideally, you would run at 0 degrees to make the steering as quick as possible but you can't since you would suffer from tank slappers (or total steering instability) all the time. That's how I understood it but of course I could be completely wrong or maybe there is something else at play so the motorcycle analogy doesn't work well.

Kyon

Motorcycles work a little differently, only one front tire to deal with, less/no linkage, etc.

[Lugboot]

Originally Posted by Bear80

The 60 series shaft ONLY shares the use of the larger bolts. Since the bolt patterns are different the shaft WILL NOT bolt to either the t-case or pinion.

The ORIGNIAL 80's shaft can be cut and the DC joint from the 60 series added. However, the flange on the t-case must be re-drilled and the studs placed in the new holes. I assume this is what davegonz has done. I would then assume a similar thing can be done to make it work on the front of the 80 series. Actually for this same method a better choice would be to use a DC joint from a '83-'95 mini truck on the front since it uses the smaller bolt sizes.

This IMO this is NOT an ideal meathod. Using the rear shaft of a 4Runner ensures a PERFECT t-case match on the rear of the LC. The whole purpose is to keep this a Toyota BOLT ON solution, although a drive line shop still is involved.

Thanks much! I have no desire to drill and re-stud the t-case flange. I agree with wanting to go with a bolt-on solution--thanks for putting such a concise thread up with the appropriate driveshafts for the applications.

[theyis]

Originally Posted by Bear80

The upper arm adjusters are used to SHORTEN the arms. This will then match the pinion u-joint angle to that of the t-case. However, ANY increase in angle on a u-joint will cause exponentially more wear on the joint and there is still the chance for vibration.

Now when the adjusters are used to lengthen the arms a DC joint is mandatory. If you re-read a few post up my pinion angle with NO adjusters is near zero, so I need a DC shaft.

Okay, I thought I had it. If you were to shorten the arms, wouldn't that force the diff pinion down and away from the t-case? You would want to lengthen them so that the diff would point to the t-case and make the shaft to diff angle straight. Then you would only need to deal with the angle from the shaft to the t-case. I didn't think most people needed a DC shaft on the rear since the driveshaft is longer and the angle is less when compared to the front. Am I messed up here or just not understanding?

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by theyis

Okay, I thought I had it. If you were to shorten the arms, wouldn't that force the diff pinion down and away from the t-case? You would want to lengthen them so that the diff would point to the t-case and make the shaft to diff angle straight. Then you would only need to deal with the angle from the shaft to the t-case. I didn't think most people needed a DC shaft on the rear since the driveshaft is longer and the angle is less when compared to the front. Am I messed up here or just not understanding?

When lift is added, the 4 link causes the axle to move in an arch. This arch makes the pinion point up as the axle moves down. This mean the angle at the t-case is greater than at the pinion. The adjustable arms can be shortened to point the pinion back down to match the angle at the t-case. This is the typical use of the adjusters. After a certian amount of lift, the angles on either u-joint after the arms are adjusted are more than ideal and it will cause increased wear. The best solution in this case is to lenghten the arms and use a DC shaft.

[Bear80]

There is nothing better than pictures to clear things up.

To make a DC front shaft, either the LC's shaft can be cut at the red line and the DC joint from a Tundra or Tacoma added. OR the Tacoma or Tundra shaft can be cut and the yellow area removed to shorten them.

To make a rear DC shaft, the LC's shaft can be cut at the red line and the DC joint from a 4Runner shaft added. Remember the flange at the slip yoke end on the 4Runner shaft will not match the LC's bolt pattern. To keep the 4runner end, a new mutli drilled flang must be put on the LC's diff. These are sold through vendors such as Cruiser Outfitters and made for re-gearing older LC's to work with the new 27 spline pinion gear sets.



The less than ideal way can be to use a DC joint off an 60 series or '83-'95 mini truck/4runner. The flanges on the LC's t-case will then need to be re-drilled and the studs removed.

[theyis]

Originally Posted by Bear80

When lift is added, the 4 link causes the axle to move in an arch. This arch makes the pinion point up as the axle moves down. This mean the angle at the t-case is greater than at the pinion. The adjustable arms can be shortened to point the pinion back down to match the angle at the t-case. This is the typical use of the adjusters. After a certian amount of lift, the angles on either u-joint after the arms are adjusted are more than ideal and it will cause increased wear. The best solution in this case is to lenghten the arms and use a DC shaft.

Hey Ben,

Not trying to get into an argument with you here, those are rarely productive, but I think you have your geometry wrong. If you lengthen your upper control arms you may very well solve your rear vibration issue without doing anything to your rear drive shaft. Remember that with the rear 4 link you are dealing with a rectangle (as viewed from the side). As the rear (axle side) of the rectangle moves down, the line formed between the rear points of the control arms stays primarily vertical . That line also happens to be perpendicular to the diff pinion. What that means is that as you lift the vehicle the diff pinion continues, for the most part, to point forward and below the t-case pinion. If you lengthen the upper control arms it will point the diff pinion back up at the t-case. That means you have little pinion angle to deal with at the diff and you have effectively reduced the angle at the t-case as well. So long as your stock drive shaft is in good shape it should be able to cope with the angle unless you are going over 6" of lift. There is only so much angle the shaft can handle, as you pointed out. If you were going over 6" you should still rotate the axle up to zero out the diff pinion angle. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. It has been a loooong time since I took geometry.

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by theyis

Hey Ben,

Remember that with the rear 4 link you are dealing with a rectangle (as viewed from the side). As the rear (axle side) of the rectangle moves down, the line formed between the rear points of the control arms stays primarily vertical . That line also happens to be perpendicular to the diff pinion. What that means is that as you lift the vehicle the diff pinion continues, for the most part, to point forward and below the t-case pinion. If you lengthen the upper control arms it will point the diff pinion back up at the t-case. That means you have little pinion angle to deal with at the diff and you have effectively reduced the angle at the t-case as well. So long as your stock drive shaft is in good shape it should be able to cope with the angle unless you are going over 6" of lift. There is only so much angle the shaft can handle, as you pointed out. If you were going over 6" you should still rotate the axle up to zero out the diff pinion angle. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. It has been a loooong time since I took geometry.

Don't sweat an argument, you've got good points! I agree that the 4 link should move in a rectangle as the axle moves down. I made my assesment because looking at my pinion with no upper arm adjustments the pinion is facing up towards the t-case. If the rectangle holds true my pinion should still be facing foward but it's not, which is why I concluded the axle must move in an arch. I also put in upper arm drop brackets, which in essence shortened the arms. The pinion angle then got closer to the t-case angle and my noise got quieter.

I also agree that I'm no expert and no geomety wiz so maybe Slee can step in here. Though I know for sure my rear shaft grrs and vibrates so I need at least a DC shaft, if not also the adjusters.

[Bear80]

I'll update this for the rear shaft. A possible solution to the problem of the rear 4runner's bolt pattern/size not matching the pattern on the LC's diff is to use a new multi drilled flang. These flanges are sold to be used on older LC's when they are re-geared with the 27 spline pinions. Only problem here is that the crush sleeve in the diff is compromised and technically the diff should be pulled out to re-crush a new sleeve. Never the less this is a possible solution.

[heckler]

I took a Tundra shaft (same as the one in your first post) to a driveshaft shop today and the guy told me that it cant be shortened nor the put on the original LC shaft. He explained that the Tundra shaft is not welded and that it is fused (sounds very technical we he said it in his sounthern accent). I dont really know what I asking because it can obviously be done. Has anybody else had an experience like this?

Oh and he tried to tell me that is was probably vibrating because it is out of phase, so I had to explain that to him. Then he said he had a bunch of mini trucks that he take one off of, I hate car places and i wish I could do this project myself.

[landtank]

I've only modified Tacoma shafts and they are a slam dunk. When I looked at a Tundra it just didn't look the same to me.

Go to car-part.com, type on 2001 Tacoma, rear drive shaft and your zip code. On the next screen ANY configuration that is extended cab or double cab will work. So the top 15 or so listings are possibilities and any year on the subsequent list will work as well. So go down the list, you should find one close by for around 100.00, 150.00 if you want a newer one.

[Bear80]

Well unless the slip yoke or something of another is bad, just cut the Tundra shaft down to length and get rid of the balloon tube. You'd only need to use the original slipe yoke on the front shaft if the Tundra's was bad. I for one actually didn't have my front slip yoke re-used but was told by the shop it could be done just as it had to be for the rear shaft. They made no mention of the different fitment (weld vs. whatever). The shop I did the work with is excellent. Infact the very first time I walked in there the guy knew it was a Toyota LC shaft from the large front u-joints and super large rear u-joints. He also knew right away about the broke-back configuration requiring a 90* out of phase shaft.

[heckler]

Landtank, Unfortunately I already invested money into the Tundra shaft so I am not really looking into buying another driveshaft. If I had to do it again I would probably stick to the Tacoma option.

Bear80, I tried to get him to just retube and shorten the Tundra shaft, but he said he could not do that either, because it was "fused". I wish there was a driveshop here like yours. When I went in today that said, "what in the hell did that come out of" and they have never heard of a driveshaft being out of phase. I think I am going to find another place to tackle this.

If it is not to much trouble is there anyway you could post a picture of your finished Tundra shaft.

Thanks for all the help. Great thread, but kind of hard to find because of the different ways people spell Cardan or Cardon or Carden (now this thread should show up when people search with different spellings).

[Bear80]

Thanks for reminding me that I need to add after pics. I'll try and get some when I get back or either have the house setter get under the truck.

[4x4CPOSEADOG]

Ben,

Do you think I can use the double cardan rear driveshaft from 4runner to replace the 80's front driveshaft? Will the flanges bolt right up to the t-case/front diff without modification other than shortening the tube?

[Bear80]

Originally Posted by 4x4CPOSEADOG

Ben,

Do you think I can use the double cardan rear driveshaft from 4runner to replace the 80's front driveshaft? Will the flanges bolt right up to the t-case/front diff without modification other than shortening the tube?

The bolts and bolt patterns are larger on the LC's rear. The 4runner shaft's flang at the DC joint matches the rear LC's only. However, it is the 4runner's slipe yoke end that matchs the bolt and bolt pattern of the LC's front.

The only match is either the Tacoma or Tundra shaft for the front of the LC. The only match for the rear is the 4runner shaft with a multi-drilled flange put on the rear 3rd or the slip yoke end of the LC's rear shaft matted on the 4runner's shaft. Just to keep in mind that the hilux (mini) truck DC joints and the 60 series DC joints both DO NOT match either end of the LC's t-case.

[treehugger]

were is the after pics ben ?

[450 DUDE]

Just reviving the dead here..
Any more info on the Tundra shafts?

Bear80 Report ? Pics ?

Thanks in advance,
ken

[Sanchez]

I'm interested on the pictures also.

Thanks

[cool breeze]

I found a ext. cab taco ds with 20k miles for $150, not too bad i think, although 20k seems TOO good. So now im gonna take it to the DS shop to shorten it. Whats a fair price? BTW this is to make the front ds.

Also what other specs/options do i need to give them? Do i have it cut to be the same length as the stocker? Any info is appreciated, im a DS newb...

[landtank]

you want a compressed length flange to flange of 32". I pay around 100.00 for this work and it includes a high speed balance. But we are limited to how many shops can do this so it might be on the high side.

[cool breeze]

Thanks for the info. Just got off the phone with the ds shop here in town and they quoted $144 for shorten/retube using a 83 wall(?) tube. I asked if it would be a stronger tube than stock and he said the thing with toyota's ds is that they're tapered and can only do so much with a retube...?..

Tom Woods gave me a price of $379 shipped for a HD piece using gold seal 1310 uj's, a .120 wall dom tubing, 180 day workmanship/ lifetime breakage warranty( uj AND damage done to ds). This seems well worth the extra $80 if im already at $300 trying to use a taco ds. Is anyone running one of their pieces on an 80?

[landtank]

the front ds is up out of the way and I personally don't think you need to worry about beefing it up. The real problem with these DS is the DC component. Using the Taco shaft IMO is the best option out there.

[ba450]

The local salvage yards are asking $150 for any DS. If it is another $150 to get the work done, why is it worth it to have a Frankenstein DS for $300 vs. getting the Slee DC for another $115. I am in Colorado not to far from Slee though. I would think a DS made from scratch would be stronger than a Frankenstein one?... Or is it worth it to save $115?

[Lugboot]

You can also resell part of the Taco DS that you don't need. I paid about $150 for the Taco DS and then sold the half I didn't need for $80.

I did the Taco route primarily for the Toyota DC component, like Landtank said.

[ba450]

Good to know didn't think of that. Thanks! I still question the strength of Frankenstein?...

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by ba450

... why is it worth it to have a Frankenstein DS for $300 vs. getting the Slee DC for another $115.

There have been quality issues and durability issues with the Slee DC front shafts. They use Spicer joints and the Spicer DC is very difficult to properly lube that DS on the truck. I removed mine to lube it the last time (was doing a regear). It is due for another and I am going to try to do it without removing it. Slee recommends lubing the DC DS every 3,000 miles.

The Koyo DC used on the Taco shafts is well made and easy to lube.

-B-