[Photo_Cruiser]

So I posted this elsewhere, but thought a thread on it could prove usefull.

Did the full E9999 flush, or close to it anyhow and I tell ya what though, I'm at 60k, second owner. PO did all factory stuff, used the dealer for all his maint, which i have the records for. I bought it with Toy red in it, I use Toy red. This was the first flush I've done and when I drained the rad, the SLUDGE was in full effect! DAMN!

I could scoop a finger full of greenish brownish gritty crapola from the top of the rad...now after the flush, 3 cycles of filling with distilled....running it for 20 mins, heaters (both) full bore...then cooling and draining...all the visible sludge is gone....there is still some surface deposits...but no muck.

I imagine down in the rad is still pretty fouled up. I have never had any cooling issues in the 2 years I've had the rig. I Am going on a ten day road trip later this week, and upon returning I'll address the Rad.

What Ya'll think, would you just have the rad rodded/cleaned or whatever it's called, Or just go straight to feeding C-Dans dogs, with a new Rad, which is what I'm thinking I'll do....am I correct in that the older rad is the one to buy, as opposed to the current model?
What, Brass vs. Aluminum? So on my list for the best solution would be rad replacement...can you suggest any other parts to include in this maintanance task that could be fowled up as well? Just did the thermo and gasket as well...I will have a shop do this job, it's not on my weekend time table...

Sucked to find all this sludge on a lo mile cruiser with good maintenance records...

All advice apprecitated!!!

[bkgiii]

FWIW, A little bird in AZ recently told me, "16400-66040 vs 16400-66081. The 66040 is brass and has 3 rows, the 16400-66081 is aluminum and has 2 rows. The 16400-66040 is a lot cheaper than the 16400-66081 It is a direct drop-in in place of the 16400-66081. I feel that the brass one is the way to go. It lists for $501.24 and would run you XXXXXXXXXX. The aluminum one lists for $612.04 and your cost is $XXXXXXXXXX."

I, LIke you, am thinking replacement and, if I do, I'm going brass...

[Rookie2]

The question might be... does it make since to purchase a new radiator at this point? Obvoiusly there appears to be a direct link between the sludge and a pending HG failure. I guess nobodies for sure if the sludged radiator buildup/cooling problem causes the HG failure, or the HG failure/exhaust gases causes the radiator sludge. Seems like for either, and particularly the later case, you'd potentially end up replacing the radiator twice by the time the HG gives up the ghost.

Thought??
Rookie2

[Photo_Cruiser]

Seems like the HG failure is usually combined with high running temps and cooling issues, of which I have none of...thus far. So I figure keep it cool, and baby the HG, So maybe a fesh rad would be a helper in avoidance of the dreaded HG. Being owner #2, I am not 100 percent positive that coolants were not mixed, but we have seen sludge in Rad's that were single owner, 100 percent Toy red coolant wiith good service histories etc... I'd like to throow in the new rad, and see if it gets fouled up. Seems like the only other option is to replace the HG and call it PM, no fawkin' way..... What are the other HG signs....Bubbles in the overflow and what else...I guess I'll search....

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by bkgiii

FWIW, A little bird in AZ recently told me..........

I've been paying income tax to the wrong damn state.......


I wonder what that shady Bill Richardson has been doing with all of it?

[landtank]

Some might remember that I had my rad flushed and it was found to have sludge in it. Scheduled a week of vacation and the damn HG was out of there . Another forum member offered me his slightly used rad as long as he could have my old one back. He then disected it and it was clean as new. This was out of a 96 with 128k on the meter. I wouldn't worry about your radiator. Spend less money and buy the valve grinding kit and replace the HG. Since my gasket wasn't a full failure I was able to just R&R the gasket and call it a day. The truck honestly runs so much better now. I had a stumble and some eratic idling prior to the HG swap. Prior to the swap I tried 2 doses of Toyota injector cleaner, throttle body cleaning and a full tuneup. This all helped a little but the HG put it over the top.


What is the big deal here? People go to great lengths in time and money maintaining the other systems but mention the engine and sanity leaves the room running. I'm sure attitudes will change when one of the "great ones" who have meticulously maintained there vehicles pukes a HG. Until then I'll just have to wait patiently for that day.

[Scamper]

There has been a lot of speculation about whether or not the gray goo is responsible for HG failures, and/or visa versa. The aluminum radiator has also been trashed a bit on the forum, and replaced by some in an attempt to stave off the potential HG failure.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the aluminum radiator, except that it's more expensive than the brass version; if I had to replace mine, I'd go brass too.

But just because you've seen some sludge in the radiator, I wouldn't panic and run out to replace the radiator (sorry Dano ). Your truck is running fine, and you've cleaned the radiator and replaced the fluid; it might be worthwhile having the radiator professionally cleaned, but otherwise, unless you're seeing signs of overheating or HG failure (e.g., leakage around the head/block junction, bubbles in the overflow, etc.), I'd let it be. The cooling system is in good shape and the truck runs well. You could easily spend as much as a HG repair on parts/fixes by panicing (unless it fails while in Timbucktu).

But you have to be the judge--do what makes you feel comfortable, knowing that you'll have to deal with your decision. JMHO.

[CDN_Cruiser]

Originally Posted by landtank

...I wouldn't worry about your radiator. Spend less money and buy the valve grinding kit and replace the HG...

Rick:

I just want to make sure I understand your response. Replacing the HG is LESS than replacing the rad? Is this true - or are you just comparing the part cost of the rad vs. a new gasket?

I've always assumed that replacing a HG is a serious $$$ cost - I thought that I saw a post that indicated it was shop billed for something like >10hrs?

Cheers, Hugh

[Rookie2]

Originally Posted by landtank

I'm sure attitudes will change when one of the "great ones" who have meticulously maintained there vehicles pukes a HG. Until then I'll just have to wait patiently for that day.

Hmmm.., I thought C-biskit feel into the puked HG category? I guess it takes more than a pin 7 mod. and discounts on parts to qualify you as a "great one". ) Back to the drawing board Dan.


Rookie2

[Scamper]

Dano puked a plug in the oil circuit. Nasty bit 'o luck that.

AFAIK, no HG for the Great One.

[cruiserdan]

I'm sporting me original head gasket. That being said, I imagine it'll barf out on the way home tonite

[landtank]

The part cost is less for the grinding kit than the radiator. Because I replaced the HG before it failed there was no need for machine work on it. Basically drain the fuids from the block, unbolt everything, clean the surfaces and re-assemble.As scarry as it may seem it's not that much more difficult than changing out a radiator. The hardest part of the whole process is making sure the distributor is timed close enough so the engine will start. This is easily done by moving the crank to top dead center of the #1 cylinder and scribing the Dist before removeal. That may sound greek to some but is easily done.

Christo has quoted just over a 1000.00 for a HG job if no machine work is needed. I doubt that is that much more than having a new radiator installed by a dealer, maybe a few hundred dollars more. Even if I didn't do the work myself I'd look into have the HG done before replacing the radiator in trying to avoid the HG repair.

My gasket was well on it's way to an inevitable failure and it was never overheated.

[Rookie2]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

I'm sporting me original head gasket. That being said, I imagine it'll barf out on the way home tonite

D'oh. My bad. I should have known better than to think Rick would have left you out of said company. Hope I havn't gooched-ya.


Rookie2

[Rich]

From my direct observation the sludge collects with the largest density in the top of the radiator on the US passenger side. Drain enough coolant to expose the radiator core. Shine a very bright flashlight into the open fill opening and look carefully inside all of the core tubes that are visible from the opening. If there is no sludge visible in any of the core tubes I am reasonably confident that is indicitive of the rest of the radiator.

If you directly blasted the core with a hose through the filler opening, then you need to examine the core tubes as far away from the opening as is possible as the blast of water from a garden hose can be effective directly in the fill opening but not so effective away from the opening.

When I removed my radiator there was essentially zero sludge visible in the lower radiator core. There was very little visible on the driver side top. There was much more visible on the passenger side top.

[Photo_Cruiser]

I'm going w/Scamper on this one, yeah i could freak out and go buy a new rad, replace the HG..or any combo of PM...but I guess my post is null...I'm not going to do a thing. I'll proceed with annual flushes, good fluid changing practices, and if something takes a crap....then I'll pull out the wallet. If something takes a crap in BFE...middle of nowhere, whilst the wife and I and 2 kids are cruising the great west....well...screw it...we pack a lot of food and beer anyhow...

I thought I'd jump ahead and sink some benjamins into more preventative maint. but we have a world full of good info on this board but it's like throwing darts blind as to what will actually work....

Thanks to all though for good flushing and PHH replacement notes...made my sunday go smooth woth only a few bloody knuckles...

Thanks All

[Rookie2]

Rick,

What's the grinding kit for... cleaning off the head/gasket I presume? How could you tell whether or not the head needed to be machined?

If I understand correctly, the replacement gasket is a improvement over stock, and hopefully cures the problem?


Rookie2

[landtank]

The head grinding kit is all the seals needed to remove the head and grind the valves. I checked the head for flatness to determine if it needed machining. By looking through the ports I could see that the valves were virtually spotless and decided not to pull them either. Most will advise that if you're going to pull the head then do all the machining just because you're there. On this I disagree. The main focus was to replace a known bad part, the HG. Toyota has revised it and from what Robbie has stated, they have cured the issues with it. God willing, this truck will be carying my ass around for some time so I decided that the most cost effective approach to this problem would be to deal with it on my terms and time table. I actually planned to do more than the HG and due to a misshap I did even more work. However 3 days would allow for a complete job at a comfortable pace if doing it by yourself. Again this would be with no machining.

[e9999]

If it were me, and I suspected some muck in the bowels of my rad, and if I could not dislodge it myself with a serious hose, I would have a pro with a blasting machine do it. Why take a chance? I don't think the rad has gone bad per se cuz it has muck in it, so why not just clean it if it is significantly cheaper than a new rad.
But I would not run the rig long with a rad assumed to be full of muck, that does not sound safe...

how much did you get out, and what kind of hose pressure was this?

E

[e9999]

come to think of it, couldn't you run the thing hot, spray some water on the outside of the rad and see if there are hot spots?
E

[IdahoDoug]

Rick,

Have you owned your truck since new? I've forgotten.

With regards to the sludge first or HG first issue. I think it's been settled that the sludge does not come from a failed HG. Sludge occurs in every modern engine out there according to a reasonable sample of mechanics and two radiator shops I've queried over the last year. Can the sludge CAUSE a HG issue? Definitely - as can any cooling system problem that reduces flow, or reduces heat transfer from the coolant to the fins (sludge does BOTH, btw).

So, regular changes and flushes and you'll all be fine.

DougM

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by Rookie2

Rick,

What's the grinding kit for... cleaning off the head/gasket I presume? How could you tell whether or not the head needed to be machined?

If I understand correctly, the replacement gasket is a improvement over stock, and hopefully cures the problem?


Rookie2

Rick explained the purpose, I'll clarify the nomenclature:

There are Two basic gasket sets or kits used in engine repairs. One is a "valve grind set" and the other is an "overhaul set". The valve grind set is also refered to as a "top end" set and the overhaul is sometimes refered to as a "complete" set. As Rick stated the valve grind set consists of the necessary gaskets and seals to remove the head(s) and grind the valves. An overhaul set includes all of the above plus the additional gaskets and seals to do the "bottom end" of the engine. It is important to note that these gasket "sets" sometimes do not have everything you may need to do a particular repair and will likely have some stuff left over when you are finished. Kits are generally cheaper than the sum of the individual parts.

D-

[MikeB]

I would have the radiator taken apart and cleaned out if there is any question at all about sludge that might still be in there. Plastic tanks are so common these days that there are many radiator shops that can work on them. I had my '95 (aluminum) radiator rodded out by Hay's Radiators in Phoenix last year for $60. For the price I considered this a good alternative to a new factory radiator ($$$) or aftermarket (questionable fit and quality).

Removing and replacing the radiator is harder than on most vehicles that I have worked on, but I can't see how anyone in their right mind can compare the effort to replace the radiator with the effort to replace the head gasket.

Mike

[e9999]

Originally Posted by MikeB

I would have the radiator taken apart and cleaned out if there is any question at all about sludge that might still be in there. Plastic tanks are so common these days that there are many radiator shops that can work on them. I had my '95 (aluminum) radiator rodded out by Hay's Radiators in Phoenix last year for $60. For the price I considered this a good alternative to a new factory radiator ($$$) or aftermarket (questionable fit and quality).

Removing and replacing the radiator is harder than on most vehicles that I have worked on, but I can't see how anyone in their right mind can compare the effort to replace the radiator with the effort to replace the head gasket.

Mike

what does "rodded out" actually imply? some sort of mechanical process?

e

[RavenTai]

Originally Posted by e9999

what does "rodded out" actually imply? some sort of mechanical process?

e

Yep they take one tank off and slide metal rods down the tubes of the radiator knocking loose any foreign matter some also use chemicals (acid?) at the same time, when the plastic tanks first came out no one would work with them shops are getting better at removing and reinstalling plastic tanks now but it is still not as reliable a repair as a all metal radiator that can be re-soldered

[e9999]

can't be cheap if you have to take the rad top off...

wondering if one could get rid of the sludge with some sort of surfactant. Maybe even HD rad cleaner...?

E

[RavenTai]

I tried Prestone super flush, It did not make a dent in the sludge at all, mine was pretty thin, a primer like layer in the top of the radiator and a few spots around the thermostat, maybe it would work on thicker looser deposits?


I tried both vinegar and soap and water on the deposits in the bottom of the overflow tank neither budged it, seams only mechanical action or lots of direct water flow can get it to move at all.

It’s inert?

[landtank]

DougM, I've owned the truck since 38k miles. It was in excellent shape when I purchsed it. I really don't think it had a hard life prior to me getting it.

Originally Posted by MikeB

Removing and replacing the radiator is harder than on most vehicles that I have worked on, but I can't see how anyone in their right mind can compare the effort to replace the radiator with the effort to replace the head gasket.

Mike

If you re-read my post I stated the difficulty of the job and not the effort. Changing out the HG is more work and will take more time but the difficulty of doing the work is not that much more in my opinion. This of course is just to clarify what I wrote and in no way argues my state of mind.

Bottom line- the original HG creates a situation where the engine is less forgiving when it comes to your cooling system's ability to do it's job. If you are SC'd or tow regularly, especially heavy amounts for long distances I'd get the gasket out of there. I'm not saying this to scare anyone, I honestly beleive if you own the truck long enough you will eventually have a failure.

[bkgiii]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

I've been paying income tax to the wrong damn state.......


I wonder what that shady Bill Richardson has been doing with all of it?

................I can't believe I did that....MEA CULPA! ....and make that 'NM'

[Rookie2]

Thanks for the clarification Rick. BTW, I started to read through the HG replacement in the FSM last night. After I got to page 15 or so, I gave up and went to bed. I'd love to see this procedure as an FAQ.

Anyhoo.. to sum up this thread, Dan is not one of the "great ones", but he's from Arizona and has had mulitple HG failures.


Rookie2

[krich97]

Hey Photo, don't assume that because the dealer did the service that red and green were never mixed. A dealer mixed mine during a 60k service done right before I purchased the truck. Coolent was a healthy looking red when I inspected it before deciding to buy it. After visiting the dealer (an arrangement worked out with the seller as he had an extended warrantee), and unfortunately a few months later I noticed brown coolent in the overflow - oh yeah and sludge. I had the dealer flush it - which they did for free, but they did refill it with 'Toyota Green' - at least it does not appear mixed but I can see some deposits on the edges of the top of the tubes when I look/feel thru the fill cap. I am watching closely and may drain and flush myself just to check in the not too distant future. Good luck - Krich