[CappyKD]

Kinda directed at the OP not you. My steering is fine.

[-Spike-]

OK, so we're both lazy.

-Spike

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by CappyKD

Do the LC's use a rag joint? On my Dodge ramcharger I had almost 3 inces of movement and I bought a $20 rag joint repair kit and the problem was solved. (I see someone mentiond a Ramcharger earlier apparently it is a common thing with them)

Yep there is a rag joint in there as well as a u-joint. Both have been replaced by me. Both were actually fine and did not require replacement.

I should probably add that I also rebuilt my steering column about a year ago.

[-Spike-]

Darwood, I hate you. Now I have to go look, I can't imagine how it could have both a rag joint and a u-joint. Damn you for making me leave my chair!

-Spike

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

Darwood, I hate you. Now I have to go look, I can't imagine how it could have both a rag joint and a u-joint. Damn you for making me leave my chair!

-Spike

If I recall correctly the rag u joint goes from the steering column to the rag joint. The rag joint is then connected to the steering shaft that goes through the firewall to the steering box. Also if the steering shaft that goes to the steering box isn't as far forward in the steering box as possible the rag joint will make a clicking noise when the steering is rocked back and forth quickly i.e. off road.

[-Spike-]

Cripes, it has not one, but two u-joints AND a rag joint. No wonder there's so much slop. At least the rag joint is under the dash rather than in the engine compartment getting beat by the heat.
FTR- Steering wheel, shaft, rag joint, u-joint, shaft, u-joint, box.

-Spike

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

Cripes, it has not one, but two u-joints AND a rag joint. No wonder there's so much slop. At least the rag joint is under the dash rather than in the engine compartment getting beat by the heat.
FTR- Steering wheel, shaft, rag joint, u-joint, shaft, u-joint, box.

-Spike

I had the order messed up. Well that's what I get for going off my memory.

I've done some experiments before and tried to see if any of those joints had some sort of slack in them. To date I haven't found that any of them do. I turn the wheel and everything else turns. The one place that doesn't happen is at the steering box. But like I've said I need to get my wife to help me to see if anything has changed since the last time I've looked.

[94 Newbie]

The Dodge uses a different style than anyone else's I know - see attached pic.

I had a '77 & 2 '79's. Sure was easy to pack the front wheel bearings, though - you used a grease gun !


I think the play on my LC w/ 174K is around an inch - I wonder if doing a wheel bearing repack & adjust would help any.



Britt

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by Darwood

I've done some experiments before and tried to see if any of those joints had some sort of slack in them. To date I haven't found that any of them do.

You have a good mechanical advantage at the wheel over the shaft components. Off the top of my head, a way to check for play would be to lock the shaft at the box, perhaps with some Vice-grips (not often I think of a good use for those ) and see if the steering wheel moves at all.

In any case, I'd love to see the results of a similar poll, with the standard for measuring spelled out. Too much ambiguity for me to trust the 8 responses of less than 1 inch of play. When I was looking into this for a friend, it took me some trial and error to come up with a reliable and repeatable way to measure the slop, and if asked before I had done this I would have said my wife's truck had no slop. I don't believe it's possible for any car to have zero play at the steering wheel, but I might be wrong.

-Spike

[CappyKD]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

OK, so we're both lazy.

-Spike

Bingo

[CappyKD]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

Cripes, it has not one, but two u-joints AND a rag joint. No wonder there's so much slop. At least the rag joint is under the dash rather than in the engine compartment getting beat by the heat.
FTR- Steering wheel, shaft, rag joint, u-joint, shaft, u-joint, box.

-Spike

Curiosity overcame laziness huh?

[CappyKD]

Originally Posted by 94 Newbie

The Dodge uses a different style than anyone else's I know - see attached pic.

I had a '77 & 2 '79's. Sure was easy to pack the front wheel bearings, though - you used a grease gun !


I think the play on my LC w/ 174K is around an inch - I wonder if doing a wheel bearing repack & adjust would help any.



Britt

That's right I replaced that whole shaft and the rag joint... Duh. Forgot about that.

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

You have a good mechanical advantage at the wheel over the shaft components. Off the top of my head, a way to check for play would be to lock the shaft at the box, perhaps with some Vice-grips (not often I think of a good use for those ) and see if the steering wheel moves at all.

In any case, I'd love to see the results of a similar poll, with the standard for measuring spelled out. Too much ambiguity for me to trust the 8 responses of less than 1 inch of play. When I was looking into this for a friend, it took me some trial and error to come up with a reliable and repeatable way to measure the slop, and if asked before I had done this I would have said my wife's truck had no slop. I don't believe it's possible for any car to have zero play at the steering wheel, but I might be wrong.

-Spike

Do you have any suggestions on a better standard for measurement? Unfortunately this was the best I could think of and you are right it is pretty subjective.

Also yeah there will always be some sort of slop. My Subaru even has slop with its rack and pinion steering, but most of that can be attributed to the bushings holding the steering rack to the frame.

[-Spike-]

Yep, I hate not knowing. Plus, the possibility of a rag joint gave me hope for improvement on my rigs, but the damn thing looks like it just came out of a parts bag. I'll probably try checking it for play someday, but I'm not holding out much hope.

Many years ago I had a Toyota pickup, and made the mistake of looking at the rag joint one day, away from home. I about shit myself, and after much self-debate I drove it home very slowly and didn't drive it again until I had replaced the joint. It was shredded. I now know that the metal parts wouldn't be able to completely let go on a whim, but at 17 I didn't grasp that.

-Spike

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

Yep, I hate not knowing. Plus, the possibility of a rag joint gave me hope for improvement on my rigs, but the damn thing looks like it just came out of a parts bag. I'll probably try checking it for play someday, but I'm not holding out much hope.

Yeah I think CDan's probably only ever sold one... and that was to me.

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by Darwood

I can turn the wheel about an inch before I feel resistance while not moving.

That standard works for me, but it was posted well after the poll started. To clarify, with the engine off, wheels straight, steering unlocked, how much can the wheel move with no resistance whatsoever. It's still difficult to come up with an accurate measurement, I braced an object against something (to keep me from inadvertantly moving it) and held it close to a reference point on the wheel, and still 'about an inch' is as accurate as I can be. Resistance builds slowly, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly where it starts.

Even this 'standard' only tells us how much play we have before the pitman arm, it gets even harder to determine how much play the tie rod ends, wheel bearings, and other components add to the mix. Add everything together, and the only real measurement is 'I like how this feels' or 'I don't like how this feels' when driving.

In short, you're screwed. You're gonna end up buying Dan a doggie condo before you're satisfied that your system is as good as it can get.

-Spike

[-Spike-]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

with the engine off, wheels straight, steering unlocked, how much can the wheel move with no resistance whatsoever.

You might also try the same method but with the wheels turned- comparing the two measurements might give you an idea if you have a wear spot where the shaft normally rides.

-Spike

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

In short, you're screwed. You're gonna end up buying Dan a doggie condo before you're satisfied that your system is as good as it can get.

-Spike

Yeah pretty much. If I haven't already bought a Dan a doggie condo I would be surprised. I'm now thinking about an addition to that condo.

Originally Posted by -Spike-

You might also try the same method but with the wheels turned- comparing the two measurements might give you an idea if you have a wear spot where the shaft normally rides.

-Spike

With the wheels turned I would expect some slack at the box based on how the thing works, but you are right if I compare the two it should give a good indication of wear. If the slop is greater at the wheels straight I would have some serious wear, however if slop is greater with the wheels turned then everything would be as expected with little wear.

[FirstToy]

Derek,
The 80 has recirc ball steering.
The 100,GX,4R,Taco,FJC have rack & pinion steering.

Recirc ball is going to be looser than any modern car or suv as almost all use rack & pinion.
Having said that, I know you are comparing your steering to other 80's.

could you have some slop in your wheel bearings? tre's are good... reman'd box... joint at the firewall...? Spike seems to have some good thoughts post #28
good luck derek!

[cpg]

Originally Posted by mrmex

When i bought my 80 i had about 2 or 3 inches of steering wheel play. After replacing tre's there wasnt much improvement. The mechanics said my tre's were fine but had them change them out anyway. they said it looked like some bushing in the steering area(need to look up which) that olnly cost like $20 and now Im down to almost nill.

Now i can drive 70 and not worry about slamming the wall or little shitbox next to me.

Can you post that part number? I replaced the dust seal about 1 year ago because of slop and noise in the steering and it has been tight since. Part was about 15 bucks if i remember where the shaft goes thru the firewall.

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by FirstToy

Derek,
The 80 has recirc ball steering.
The 100,GX,4R,Taco,FJC have rack & pinion steering.

Recirc ball is going to be looser than any modern car or suv as almost all use rack & pinion.
Having said that, I know you are comparing your steering to other 80's.

could you have some slop in your wheel bearings? tre's are good... reman'd box... joint at the firewall...? Spike seems to have some good thoughts post #28
good luck derek!

Funny thing is the Taco steering annoyed me as well. The bushings for the steering rack would wear out and were too soft. The rack liked to move around.

I checked the wheel bearings a couple days ago and they were fine. Next is the TREs. When I first installed the remanned box I had my sister in law turn the steering wheel. I could see the input shaft at the box turn, but the pitman arm didn't do anything.

Also driving tonight I think I've discovered the thing that really bugs me the most. I can't seem to center my steering wheel. The center changes based on the road and sometimes it changes just because. This box has always been like this. I'll adjust to drag link to center the steering wheel one direction and then the next week I have to adjust it the other way to center it. Repeat ad nauseum. This is with just normal street driving. It's making me go insane.

[Cruiserdrew]

Derek-Just an observation that may have nothing to do with your situation. My steering has been getting "looser" over the last year or two. The deterioration was slow enough, that it never really got critical and bothered me. Like you, I did not like side walls on the freeway.

Three weeks ago, I was getting a bit of minor death wobble coming home from Coyote Flats. It turned out that the front pan hard upper bushing was going bad. It was subtle, but when you pushed the front end sideways, it gave a tiny clunk. On inspection it looked normal, but the added movement could be seen.

After replacing the bushing, it's like a new truck. The steering is super tight with no appreciable slop. My TREs were new a year or two ago, and everything else is stock. Not saying that's your problem, but it was an unexpected source of slop in mine, and the fix was weirdly effective.

Just for reference, I used the Slee bushing kit with the blue polyurethane.

[CappyKD]

Originally Posted by Darwood

Funny thing is the Taco steering annoyed me as well. The bushings for the steering rack would wear out and were too soft. The rack liked to move around.

I checked the wheel bearings a couple days ago and they were fine. Next is the TREs. When I first installed the remanned box I had my sister in law turn the steering wheel. I could see the input shaft at the box turn, but the pitman arm didn't do anything.

Also driving tonight I think I've discovered the thing that really bugs me the most. I can't seem to center my steering wheel. The center changes based on the road and sometimes it changes just because. This box has always been like this. I'll adjust to drag link to center the steering wheel one direction and then the next week I have to adjust it the other way to center it. Repeat ad nauseum. This is with just normal street driving. It's making me go insane.

I may have a solution somewhat to the centering issue. Some of that is road related and can't be helped and some can be improved with a self centering steering stabilizer. I picked one up for the 80 but havn't installed it yet. I'm gonna do a write-up and post details here on Mud whether it's good or bad. Basically it's an adjustable coil-over coilover shock setup that replaces your stock steering stabilizer, and once you get it aligned (shock not the truck) the spring pressure returns the wheels to center or assists on re-centering. The one I picked up I imported from Australia cause I couldn't find anything like it here in the US. Maybe the Aussie guys can chime in on this style steering stabilizer?

Teaser pic.

[Darwood]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

Derek-Just an observation that may have nothing to do with your situation. My steering has been getting "looser" over the last year or two. The deterioration was slow enough, that it never really got critical and bothered me. Like you, I did not like side walls on the freeway.

Three weeks ago, I was getting a bit of minor death wobble coming home from Coyote Flats. It turned out that the front pan hard upper bushing was going bad. It was subtle, but when you pushed the front end sideways, it gave a tiny clunk. On inspection it looked normal, but the added movement could be seen.

After replacing the bushing, it's like a new truck. The steering is super tight with no appreciable slop. My TREs were new a year or two ago, and everything else is stock. Not saying that's your problem, but it was an unexpected source of slop in mine, and the fix was weirdly effective.

Just for reference, I used the Slee bushing kit with the blue polyurethane.

Interesting thought. I'll have to check that out while I check the TREs. How old were the bushings in your panhard arm?

Originally Posted by CappyKD

I may have a solution somewhat to the centering issue. Some of that is road related and can't be helped and some can be improved with a self centering steering stabilizer. I picked one up for the 80 but havn't installed it yet. I'm gonna do a write-up and post details here on Mud whether it's good or bad. Basically it's an adjustable coil-over coilover shock setup that replaces your stock steering stabilizer, and once you get it aligned (shock not the truck) the spring pressure returns the wheels to center or assists on re-centering. The one I picked up I imported from Australia cause I couldn't find anything like it here in the US. Maybe the Aussie guys can chime in on this style steering stabilizer?

Teaser pic.

Attachment 174472

I'm curious to see your review. I've seen those 4 Way stabilizers before and have heard mixed reviews. It's my impression that that they were created to counter the caster issue. If you don't have caster to get the wheels back to center just force them with a spring.

[CappyKD]

It was only $40 more than a OME one so I figured I'd try it.

[-Spike-]

I think you're gonna be disappointed with the self-centering stabilizer. The tires center on Derek's truck, but not the steering wheel, and that stabilizer isn't gonna do anything for that. As he mentioned, my impression is they are used to combat bad caster.

-Spike

[Darwood]

I just had a late thought. If the panhard bushing is worn then yes that would most certainly explain the centering issue. A moving panhard would effectively shorten or lengthen the drag link in relation to the knuckle. Hmm

[CappyKD]

Originally Posted by -Spike-

I think you're gonna be disappointed with the self-centering stabilizer. The tires center on Derek's truck, but not the steering wheel, and that stabilizer isn't gonna do anything for that. As he mentioned, my impression is they are used to combat bad caster.

-Spike

I probably will. I log a lot of miles on my rig so I will know pretty quickly. I have all stock suspension just well worn so we'll see.

[Darwood]

I got to finally check the steering linkages out. It seems like everything is fine. There was no real noticeable unwanted movement. As the input shaft turned the pitman armed turned and everything else moved. It was almost like the ratio at the box is too small though. I didn't see the panhard arm move side to side either. It stayed in place.

[cpg]

Originally Posted by Darwood

I got to finally check the steering linkages out. It seems like everything is fine. There was no real noticeable unwanted movement. As the input shaft turned the pitman armed turned and everything else moved. It was almost like the ratio at the box is too small though. I didn't see the panhard arm move side to side either. It stayed in place.

Was it on jack stands or the ground?