Wide Band Air/Fuel or O2 Gauge Options (1 Viewer)

[Phil H]

While I have the head out and doing the HG replacement, I wanted to get the sensor bung installed on the exhaust manifold for a wide band oxygen sensor. I have searched the archives and done a bit of calling to vendors and have compiled the following Wide Band O2 or Air/Fuel gauge options:

- AutoMeter ATM-5778 (Phantom), working range: 10.0 to 20.0; 2-1/16", ~$350
(I have a Phantom series EGT gauge that would be nice to match.)
http://www.autometer.com/search_results.aspx?q=wideband air/fuel

- AutoMeter ATM-6478 (Nexus w data logging), working range: 10.0 to 20.0; 2-1/16", ~$400

- Innovate G2, working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS.php

- Innovate DB; working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289

- Innovate G3; working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289 Kit

- Greddy p/n16000811; working range: 8.0 to 16.0, 60mm (2.36") Dia; ~$340
http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=electronics&SubCategory=57

- Westach dual A/F - Water Temp degF; working range: 10 to 17; 2"; ~$200
http://www.westach.com/
(Westach as has been pt'd out offers custom gauges with daul-gauges a relatively inexpensive choice - (4) week lead time; they can do the wide band A/F as a single gauge as well.)

- Spa Technique was mentioned but could not find a wide band O2 gauge on their website:
http://www.spatechnique.com/product_pages/gauges.asp

Vendors: Egauges, Summit Racing, JEGS, direct from the mfg

Anyone have others to recommend??

Where along the exhaust are you mtg the bung for the sensor? Upstream from the OEM O2 Sensors? Could install it right next to the EGT sensor that is already on the Y-pipe just down from the cast iron exh manifold.

The Greddy looks greaty but its a lot bigger and likely impossible to fit up in the pillar gauge pod that I have. As I understand it, the work being done on the modified MAF by landtank would require a gauge/sensor pkg that can see below the 10.0 range limit the Auto Meter's can provide. That seems to leave only the Innovate or the Greddy units.

Appreciate any comments! Thanks.

 

[clownmidget]

http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=70

http://www.speedhut.com/el_detail_gauge.asp?auto_number=600&bhcp=1

looks like the speedhut just does the 10-18 range as well.

 

[landtank]

this explains alot. Turbo Cruiser saw a big difference on his narrow band AFM between the stock MAF and the modded one but very little with the wideband installed.

I think he has the autometer one and it only goes to 10.0. While the stock unit read 10.0 the modded one read 10.8 which looks like nothing but probably is much more in reality.

I'd stay away from the ones that only read to 10.0 becasue of TC's experience.

 

[Phil H]

clownmidget - Thanks for the other two possibilities - added to the list. But, as you say, neither offers a range that extends below 10.0.


landtank - I agree; to monitor the modified MAF, I think something down to around 7.0 would be preferable. That leaves only the Greddy or the Innovate gauges at the moment.

 

[clownmidget]

Interesting read on these from 2004
http://www.zeitronix.com/press/afrshootout1.htm

also found that Haltech and MSD have versions and that the "new" AEM units go down to 9.0

 

[turbocruiser]

clownmidget - Thanks for the other two possibilities - added to the list. But, as you say, neither offers a range that extends below 10.0.


landtank - I agree; to monitor the modified MAF, I think something down to around 7.0 would be preferable. That leaves only the Greddy or the Innovate gauges at the moment.

Just to clarify this, the richest reading I've seen with the modded MAF was 10.8 while with the stock MAF it was 10.0 which was the bottom of the range of the meter. So, while the stock MAF prolly took the truck richer than the ten I saw, the modded MAF has not so if you are running the modded MAF, I'd go with something in the 10 to 20 reading range. HTH.

Ohh, the sensor should sit approximately 6 to 10 inches from the turbo.

 

[SUMOTOY]

I have used the LM1 for years because you can calibrate the sensor and allows datalogging (it also has a converted narrow band 02 output so you don't need to add a 02 bung). I see no reason to have a AFR guage permanently installed on a stock truck, or even a modded vehicle. I use AFR differently I guess. If you do mods regularly, it's a good tool to see what you need to do with fuel to compensate. Once that's done, it's no longer a tool, it's a toy IMO.

That said, I wouldn't fixate on registering below 10:1AFR. Since 12.6 is peak power, read: any reading below 10 doesn't need a more accurate guage IMO. Given there's going to be one, the Zeitronic unit has the most useful 'other' information, and is a nice unit IME. BTW, the boys at Zeitronics have real jobs, so it's an internet buy only.

Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[knorrena]

So can the wide band o2 be used by the ecu, or the wide band merely an observation tool?

Karl

 

[landtank]

The original poster is SC'd and with the stock MAF WOT will most likely go below 10.0. So if he wants to read exactly how poor his fuel delivery is he needs a sensor that will register that low.

If you compare TurboCruiser's readings with the stock MAF at 10.0 and FJZ80psi's at just above 8 you'll see that his AFM is accurately displaying what the situation is.FJZ80psi is running the innovate unit.

 

[Lockd97]

Although I have not tried it on the Cruiser, the narrow band output from my LM-1 would not work with my Tacoma ECU, the computer would not read it correctly, throwing a P0130. I didn't have time to pin it down further and went back to stock.

Also, you WILL have to add another bung regardless due to the WBO2 sensor being threaded and the Toyota is flanged.

I welded my bung right after the Y and before the stock O2 right where the heat shield starts. I had to trim a small portion of the heat shield for the bung. Exactly opposite side from the tire, there is just enouogh room to screw it in.

My Innovate LM-1 readings from my 1500mi CO trip w/Landtanks MAF comfirmed everthing that Turbocruiser reported in his MAF threads.

 

[Phil H]

Thanks for the input & suggestions. I updated the notes with em:


- AutoMeter ATM-5778 (Phantom), working range: 10.0 to 20.0; 2-1/16", ~$350
(I have a Phantom series EGT gauge that would be nice to match.)
http://www.autometer.com/search_resu...and air/fuel

- AutoMeter ATM-6478 (Nexus w data logging), working range: 10.0 to 20.0; 2-1/16", ~$400

- Innovate G2, working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS.php

- Innovate DB; working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289

- Innovate G3; working range: 8.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$289 Kit

- Greddy p/n16000811; working range: 8.0 to 16.0, 60mm (2.36") Dia; ~$340
http://www.greddy.com/products/displ...SubCategory=57

- Westach dual A/F - Water Temp degF; working range: 10 to 17; 2"; ~$200
http://www.westach.com/
(Westach as has been pt'd out offers custom gauges with daul-gauges a relatively inexpensive choice - (4) week lead time; they can do the wide band A/F as a single gauge as well.)

- Spa Technique was mentioned but could not find a wide band O2 gauge on their website:
http://www.spatechnique.com/product_pages/gauges.asp

- AEM UEGO p/n 30-4123; working range: 11.0 to 17.0; 2-1/16" ???; ~$227 - Req's Controllers 30-2300 & 30-2301
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=70

- Speedhut Revolution; working range: 10.0 to 18.0; 2-1/16"; ~$120 does NOT include O2 sensor
http://www.speedhut.com/el_detail_gauge.asp?auto_number=600&bhcp=1

- NGK AFX; working range: 9.00 to 16.00; rectangular encl; ~$215
http://www.ngk.com/more_info.asp?AAIA=&pid=20509; http://www.ngk.com/results_cross.asp?pid=afx
(Tech Note: You may use the AFX as a constant AFR monitoring tool, but keep in mind that this will consume the sensor faster. If you are not using the sensor to tune the engine, we generally recommend you take it out. It may be a good idea to keep a backup sensor on hand if you tune constantly or if you tune at the track)

- Zeitronix Zt-2; working range: 10.0 to 20.0; rectangular display; ~$399
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

- Haltech Widebadn Display Gauge; working range: ??? to ???; 2-1/16"; $???
http://www.haltech.com/wideband_lambda.htm

- MSD p/n 46201; working range: 10.0 to 18.0; 2-5/8"; ~$435
http://www.msdignition.com/2006/06-1.htm

Shootout Articles:

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php
http://www.zeitronix.com/press/afrshootout2.htm

Vendors: Egauges, Summit Racing, JEGS, direct from the mfg

 

[Phil H]

Greddy not a Wide Band?? amd life expectancy of sensor

Now, a couple of comments:

I spoke w Greddy and they said their Air/Fuel 60mm warning gauge is NOT a Wide-Band unit!! They offer the extended range in the display but their sensor is not a wide-band variant. Does this match what some of you have been told?? THis came from the Greddy rep that answered the phone and seemed knowledgeable. BTW - for wide-band needs, they say they typically recommend the Innovate product.

NGK tech note re: the lifetime of their O2 wide band sensor indicates a fairly short life - see the previous post for the quote. Seems like they are saying that the sensor, if used or installed as a permanent sensor would last around 1 yr. Is this typical across the board? I do not see such comments or notes in the Autometer install doc's for instance but other vendors do speak of removing the sensor when "not in-use."

Sumotoy - is this what you are getting at when you say you do not use your A/F as a 'daily' display tool.

My goal - and yes, I have a TRC S/C in our 80 - is to monitor some of the parameters that I have not in the past particulary as I see how the mod'd MAF behaves when I install it - BEFORE/AFTER. I had seen the need to have EGT, A/F, water temp and boost as things to monitor going forward.

 

[Phil H]

clownmidget - thanks for those links and the shootout articles!! Did a bit more searching and found a couple of others, one by a Ford enthusiast club that required a membership to view....

knorrena - I was interested primarily in monitoring the A/F in a manner that would let me see the changes due to a modifed MAF with S/C rather then replacing/upgrading the OEM sensors. That's beyond what I know about.

 

[Phil H]

Lockd97,

Where did you get your Innovate unit? Did you go with the standalone gauge kit or pc it together?

 

[Lockd97]

Lockd97,

Where did you get your Innovate unit? Did you go with the standalone gauge kit or pc it together?

I got the handheld unit(LM-1) direct from Innovate. That was the only product they had at the time.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Now, a couple of comments:

I spoke w Greddy and they said their Air/Fuel 60mm warning gauge is NOT a Wide-Band unit!! They offer the extended range in the display but their sensor is not a wide-band variant. Does this match what some of you have been told?? THis came from the Greddy rep that answered the phone and seemed knowledgeable. BTW - for wide-band needs, they say they typically recommend the Innovate product.

NGK tech note re: the lifetime of their O2 wide band sensor indicates a fairly short life - see the previous post for the quote. Seems like they are saying that the sensor, if used or installed as a permanent sensor would last around 1 yr. Is this typical across the board? I do not see such comments or notes in the Autometer install doc's for instance but other vendors do speak of removing the sensor when "not in-use."

Sumotoy - is this what you are getting at when you say you do not use your A/F as a 'daily' display tool.

When not in use means that if you remove power to the LM-1 or any other 'display/controller', you need to remove the WB 02 as well. IOW, once installed the wide band 02 has to stay hooked up and running (heater and sensor wires). Otherwise, you will ruin the 02 sensor in short order (as in really short).

Mine takes a pretty severe beating at the track, dyno, and to program standalone EFI, so I'm on my 4th WB02 sensor for the LM-1. Innovate warns of mounting location out of water (avoid 3oclock to 9 oclock positioning on pipe), upstream of air injection, use a heat sink if heat is high (900f+), and use a stand off bung if the flow is too high.

The warning of remove when 'not in use' is quite valid. As a rule, I find wide band 02 more sensitive to contaminants than the narrow band 02's, probably because they are a more sensitive instrument.

Phil, IMO what the NGK tech is probably referring to is meter calibration and accuracy as the sensor ages. The LM-1 has both heater circuit and 'free air' calibration as part of the meter calibration. The LM-1 calls for WB02 recalibration at 3mos and/or 10,000/20,000 miles (turbo/normally-aspirated respectively). Which indicates to me that any WB02 A/F meter that doesn't have calibration ability, probably does indeed have a reduced 02 sensor life to the pre-set calibration/accuracy of the meter. IOW, after a year, it's probably a lot less accurate than a new WB 02 sensor.

I've never used WB02 as a daily monitoring device, It's always been a fuel tuning tool for me only. I believe once fuel is dialed in, it only needs to be monitored again if some other mod dictates that. I've installed a lot of guages into vehicles for street and/or race, but I just don't see A/F as a primary or even secondary tool for daily monitoring of proper engine function.

HTH and my .02

Scott Justusson
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Moby]

Other than the size I've been happy with my Innovate LM-1. I'm about to upgrade it to an LM-2 however so that I can data log more than just the A/F ratio (in my case I want to log A/F, rpm and the output of my J&S Safeguard knocksensor to see if the moderate pinging that I'm seeing corresponds with lean periods that are too brief to catch as I try to watch the monitor and the road at the same time ). If you think you want to monitor more than just the A/F ratio you might consider just getting an LM-2 from the start as it is cheaper than upgrading later.

 

[turbocruiser]

I have used the LM1 for years because you can calibrate the sensor and allows datalogging (it also has a converted narrow band 02 output so you don't need to add a 02 bung). I see no reason to have a AFR guage installed on a stock truck, or even a modded vehicle. I use AFR differently I guess. If you do mods regularly, it's a good tool to see what you need to do with fuel to compensate. Once that's done, it's no longer a tool, it's a toy IMO.

Scott Justusson
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

Whoa wait a flea flickin minute here Scott ... first of all the LM1's narrow band output wont work because the bung is different between the stock sensor and the wideband sensor ... secondly, you were the one who suggested that no modded vehicle ( the context concerned is forced induction ) go without a WBO2 !!! Dontcha make me pull up all the posts you posted about that.

I've never used WB02 as a daily monitoring device, It's always been a fuel tuning tool for me only. I believe once fuel is dialed in, it only needs to be monitored again if some other mod dictates that. I've installed a lot of guages into vehicles for street and/or race, but I just don't see A/F as a primary or even secondary tool for daily monitoring of proper engine function.

HTH and my .02

Scott Justusson
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged

IMHO, that is taking a lot of liberties; for one, not too many people will take the time and the trouble to install the bung, the gauge and the sensor just to dial the fuel in and then remove the thing then ... for two, you are assuming that load is more or less constant and that is totally wrong (it might be acurrate for audis where all you can do is dump stuff in the trunk) - but, if Dan or Romer for example dialed in fuel with an unladen vehicle and then hook up their trailers with 3800 to 10000 pounds and start pulling mountain passes they could easily chance lean conditions. I think that you should restate these things to make them actually apply to, well, 80's! .

 

[SUMOTOY]

Whoa wait a flea flickin minute here Scott ... first of all the LM1's narrow band output wont work because the bung is different between the stock sensor and the wideband sensor ... secondly, you were the one who suggested that no modded vehicle ( the context concerned is forced induction ) go without a WBO2 !!! Dontcha make me pull up all the posts you posted about that.

The bosch universal toyota apps (40USD for the 1 wire 22RE job) come with an adapter and gasket for the bung setup on the yota.

Secondly, I wouldn't run a modded vehicle without baselining with a WB02. TC, I've had the LM-1 for a long time, I wouldn't think of permanently installing it, it's a big lumbering PITA. However, since no one has cracked the ECU, and all that's been posted to date is OBDII readings, I suggested the WB02 as a better tool for the job. At no time did I say to install it permanently, I'd be happy to correct any post you can find where I said to. Not sure how you'd perm install a LM-1...

IMHO, that is taking a lot of liberties; for one, not too many people will take the time and the trouble to install the bung, the gauge and the sensor just to dial the fuel in and then remove the thing then ...

Why not? It's how I've used the LM-1 for years. Summit sells 02 plugs cheap, so does just about any good exhaust/dyno shop. For exactly this reason. Many of the new aftermarket exhausts (Stromung especially) actually gives you 2 exhaust bungs and a plug with the exhaust. I install this one regularly after my rounds with the LM-1 installed (which I believe is the one Stromung actually uses)
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-motorsports-oxygen-sensor-bung-plug-3736-p-71.html
Or in steel with a hex bolt...
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16136&cat=251&page=1
Or, this would work
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...rt=MSD-2335&N=700+4294859977+115&autoview=sku

for two, you are assuming that load is more or less constant and that is totally wrong (it might be acurrate for audis where all you can do is dump stuff in the trunk) - but, if Dan or Romer for example dialed in fuel with an unladen vehicle and then hook up their trailers with 3800 to 10000 pounds and start pulling mountain passes they could easily chance lean conditions. I think that you should restate these things to make them actually apply to, well, 80's! .

Load isn't a constant, but neither is your injector fuel pressure vs load if you disconnect and plug the FPR, not sure I understand the point. TC, if you do nothing but watch a lean or rich condition on an expensive meter, you can only make a claim of a lean or rich condition. How do you take the data you measured with the tool you used, to modify the fuel?

What happens if you find lean on the WB02 in those altitude situations? I've run to Steamboat with the SC at the track (7300ft) and to pick up a 4500lb quattro in Estes Park with my tandem trailer.... Again, I'm not sure I understand the argument. If there was some way to tweek the fuel on the fly, I guess I could see it. However, I've done quite a few stand-alone efi programming setups, and the correction for altitude is done once, then the WB02 is removed again... Until another mod dictates a change.

I see WB02 as a tool for baselining and tweeking fuel for a given set of mods. Once that's done, I guess I miss how it's useful anymore. You did good, you put one in, it's more accurate than a narrow band 02 for an air/fuel (MAF) mod. But read the reduced life of the sensor threads, they aren't just a passing comment by the tech Phil spoke to at NGK. It's the reality of a 'factory set' calibration WB02 sensor/meter accuracy.

YOMV

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Phil H]

....
I welded my bung right after the Y and before the stock O2 right where the heat shield starts. I had to trim a small portion of the heat shield for the bung. Exactly opposite side from the tire, there is just enouogh room to screw it in.
....

Lockd97 (Scott) - crawling around under the 80 tonight - best I can figure it you installed yours kind of on the down tube portion of the Y pipe to be opposite the tire yet before the stock (front) O2 sensor. It must be aimed towards the body-to-frame mnt bolt, aimed slightly down of horizontal. Is that about right?

How come not on the opposite side in-line and in front of that stock O2 sensor? Seems like there is a bit more room on that side BUT it will be in-line and around 2in away from the stk O2 sensor. Thoughts and opinions??