Won't start following HG replacement

dcarlo · 06-09-07, 08:44 PM

Ok, the truck is all buttoned up after HG replacement... also replaced fuel filter. Truck will not start, just turns over and over... I don't smell any gas... I think I'm fuel starved.

I suppose the best way to start diagnosis is to remove the fuel line where it attaches to the fuel rail... then check for fuel? Is there a better way to diagnose ?

Thanks!

--don

knorrena · 06-09-07, 09:23 PM

I am in the same boat. I have fuel to the fuel filter, but no spark. I went through the TSM for no spark and found no issues. I was pretty sure I hooked everything up.

Karl

IdahoDoug · 06-09-07, 10:01 PM

Don,

Yes, pull the fuel line right after the filter, BEFORE the modulator on the fuel rail and see if it flows. I'm assuming the EFI fuse is in?

Karl,

You have fuel, or you have fuel pressure? Big difference. It should flow with the key on. Sure you have no spark?

For both of you, I find a can of starter fluid to be the Great Equalizer. If the engine won't hit on a spray of starter fluid into the intake manifold, then it's a sure bet you have no spark. Or at least the spark is not in the timing scale.

I'm betting at least one of you - maybe both - have the distributor gear off a tooth. You can tell by having someone hit the starter while you use the timing light and find that the timing mark is not appearing anywhere on the engine block's timing scale. Have either of you checked your timing with a light yet?

DougM

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 12:13 AM

Thanks Doug,
I have not used the light yet... was waiting for at least a sign of lift off...:-)
I'm sure I got the timing pretty close... and I would assume there would be ignition even if the timing was off.

The bolts that connect to either side of the fuel filter and the one on the rail have a hole in the bolt that has to line up with the incomming flow line... I'm going to have to re-check the marks I painted on the bolts to make sure they lined up. Let you know tomorrow ...

thanks again for your help....

--don

IdahoDoug · 06-10-07, 12:37 AM

Don,

Never assume. Check the timing before screwing around and unbolting things. There's no way to be "sure" you got the timing pretty close until you check it and find out you in fact did not. heh.

DougM

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 12:23 PM

Ok, timing is ok now... off by a tooth. I have NO fuel comming to the filter... bone dry... does something need to get re-pressurized ?
Not sure where to go from here...

--don

IdahoDoug · 06-10-07, 01:21 PM

Are you hearing the fuel pump whine when you turn the key to 'run'? If not, then you've got to get that resolved. I guess you're going to have to pull the fuel line on the pump side of the fuel filter to see if the fuel's getting there first. Also, be advised if you've already had the key on several times the pump may have the fuel line at full pressure and you won't hear it pressurize again. So, depressurizing by removing the fuel line may be the only 100% way to know the fuel pump should kick on. Of course this will also tell you if the fuel pump's pushing fuel.

Someone else may need to chime in because this next item I'm not positive on, but only quite sure. The banjo fittings on the fuel line connections where the hole seems to need to line up for fuel to pass. It's my impression that even with the hole in the worst position (90 degrees off) it will still let fuel through fine. I *believe* there is space in there for the fuel to flow around the fittings interior. Having said that, I put new gaskets on mine and things lined up as before but if you don't use new gaskets (aluminum IIRC) they may not. So, I'm curious as you likely are if those holes MUST line up in the fuel banjo fittings for fuel to flow. It seems like a poor design if that's the case because even a little off would restrict flow.

So - does your fuel pump engage (it's back in the fuel tank and easy to hear the whine if you're there and someone else turns the key on.

DougM

knorrena · 06-10-07, 04:41 PM

Doug,

Thanks for championing this. I have no spark as verified by a timing light off of the coil, or, redundantly, #1 plug wire. I have 12v to the coil when the ignition switch is on though. I checked all the fuses using a meter, not just eyeballed. I confirmed operation of the efi relay as per the TSM. I checked the crank sensor - its ok. I checked the plug wires - all are within TSM specs. I checked all the injector connectors and found that #6 had not been fully clicked in. I checked my alt, its plugged in. I checked the 3 forward connectors (knock and the other two I dont recall). I checked the iac and the tps sensors. I had this weird thought that maybe the engine immobilizer has kicked in, is that possible?

Karl

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 06:29 PM

Hmmm .. I should check the spark as well... how do you do this? when I run the timing light , the mark jumps all over the place... perhaps getting false readings from the light.

Gas barely trickles out of the fuel-in line to the fuel filter when removed. I don't see any fuel comming out of it when I crank the engine either.

I pulled the valve cover off and tripple checked all of the timing .l.. it's perfect.

I shot a bunch of starter fluid in to the intake... while cranking and the throttle open..l.. nothing.... there was one slight fire on a cylinder... but barely and that was it ... just cranks and cranks. .... getting frustrated...:-O

Karl... what is the engine immobilizer... that sounds suspicious....

--don

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Are you hearing the fuel pump whine when you turn the key to 'run'? If not, then you've got to get that resolved. I guess you're going to have to pull the fuel line on the pump side of the fuel filter to see if the fuel's getting there first. Also, be advised if you've already had the key on several times the pump may have the fuel line at full pressure and you won't hear it pressurize again. So, depressurizing by removing the fuel line may be the only 100% way to know the fuel pump should kick on. Of course this will also tell you if the fuel pump's pushing fuel.

Someone else may need to chime in because this next item I'm not positive on, but only quite sure. The banjo fittings on the fuel line connections where the hole seems to need to line up for fuel to pass. It's my impression that even with the hole in the worst position (90 degrees off) it will still let fuel through fine. I *believe* there is space in there for the fuel to flow around the fittings interior. Having said that, I put new gaskets on mine and things lined up as before but if you don't use new gaskets (aluminum IIRC) they may not. So, I'm curious as you likely are if those holes MUST line up in the fuel banjo fittings for fuel to flow. It seems like a poor design if that's the case because even a little off would restrict flow.

So - does your fuel pump engage (it's back in the fuel tank and easy to hear the whine if you're there and someone else turns the key on.

DougM

Ok... I've quit for the night. I do not hear any whine .... never have ... so would'nt know what I'm listening for... I will start working on troubleshooting fuel to the fuel filter ... since... none is geting there. Seems strange as this was not a problem before... Why would this be a problem now ? I checked and re-checked all conections...

Is there a way to reboot the ECM perhaps ? I'm at a lost right now. Guess I will start looking into the fuel pump...

--don

knorrena · 06-10-07, 10:00 PM

Don,

I hope you dont think that I am jacking your thread. I just that since we had the same problem at the same time we could work out our problems at the same time.

About the engine immobilizer. I have a lx450. I have read that if someone attempts to hotwire the truck the engine immobilizer kicks in. Beyond this info anyhting I say regarding the immobilizer is pure unadultrated (sp?) speculation.

I checked spark by first holding the coil wire near a ground point. I also checked spark by hookng up my timing light to the coild and tried to strart the truck. I did the same for the #1 cylinder.

I think my problem is due to me screwing with the wiring harness. I may have broken a wire or two, but I doubt it. None of the insulation on the wires seemed brittle, and most of the fibreglass tape was intact. I had to screw with the harness to move my iac and tps wires for supercharger install.

Have a look at this thread: Emergency Troubleshooting Procedures - FAQ Item (Recommend Keeping Copy in Truck)

Karl

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 10:21 PM

Hey Karl, no problem !!! ... I want us both to our trucks going ... forgot you were doing the SC install as well ( lucky guy ... :-) ... that seems like a lot more work and more invasive.

I think my problem is fuel related... possibly a stuck fuel pump... see this thread
Fuel pump problem. Any thoughts?

Thanks for the info ... going to take a look at it now... please keep me posted on your progress...

--don

IdahoDoug · 06-10-07, 10:44 PM

Don,

Obviously no whine sound within the fuel tank and no pressure in the fuel lines from you removing it means the fuel pump's not running. The question is why and I'm not thinking the fuel pump itself is the issue. I guess you could give the bottom of the fuel tank a few hard raps while someone's got the key on to see if suddenly it starts up and you hear the whine. Since you also seem to have a spark problem and you've verified the timing is on, I'm thinking there's a connection issue on reassembly that's still in play.

There aren't really a lot of wires that come off, unless you did the "pull the wires through the intake manifold" technique. Did you? Or did you use the "leave the wires alone and leave the intake manifold in the engine bay" technique on the HG DVD?

Mass air connector on?
When you turn the ignition to 'run' do you get the normal engine lights coming on, then off?
Coil connections on?
Alternator connections on?

And I'm assuming the engine's timing is correct, meaning you have the camshafts in phase with the crankshaft.

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 11:07 PM

Thanks Doug,
I will double check the spark tomorrow... I think I am getting spark but I will check tomorrow.

I did the "NO disconnect wire harnerss" techique like the DVD.

I have pulled the valve cover again, and throttle body , and double checked all vacume hoses and connections... all connections are good.

At 0 degrees TDC on the crank, the camshafts are at 1 and 2 dot postions as per FSM, then the Distributer is also aligned perfectly, along with timing chain top position, etc. The timing is right on...:-) ... I'm getting good at this ...

I had to replace the fusable link (via Toyota replacement) at the battery becuause of a mishap...:-) ... but this was replaced without issues.

I will trouble-shoot the fuel issue first, as I do not hear the whine and do not see any fuel comming out of the intake fuel line... nor obviously the fuel pressure regulator (which I have also replaced). I'm going to go ahead and replace EFI fuses as well... bascially do a complete diag of the EFI until it works... right ?

--don

knorrena · 06-10-07, 11:10 PM

Doug,

I followed your advice on the dvd and did not pull the harness. Mass air is connected. I get all the normal engine lights. The coil is connected, as is the alternator. The only thing that was a little odd was that on the primary side of the coil has a resistance of 0.9 ohm, whereas the manual requires up to 0.65 ohm. The battery in my meter is low, so I thought the reading was reasonable. I have followed all the advice in the manual on IG1 - . Tomorrow, I will start tracing out wires. Problems is I dont really know where to start other than figuring out the logic of the ecu and watching my meter as I try to start it.

Hmm, I did replace the brushes in my alt. If I screwed this up I dont see how this would have effects like what I am experiencing.

Karl

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knorrena

Doug,

I followed your advice on the dvd and did not pull the harness. Mass air is connected. I get all the normal engine lights. The coil is connected, as is the alternator. The only thing that was a little odd was that on the primary side of the coil has a resistance of 0.9 ohm, whereas the manual requires up to 0.65 ohm. The battery in my meter is low, so I thought the reading was reasonable. I have followed all the advice in the manual on IG1 - . Tomorrow, I will start tracing out wires. Problems is I dont really know where to start other than figuring out the logic of the ecu and watching my meter as I try to start it.

Hmm, I did replace the brushes in my alt. If I screwed this up I dont see how this would have effects like what I am experiencing.

Karl

Karl, I replaced alt brushes as well.

dcarlo · 06-10-07, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knorrena

Doug,

I followed your advice on the dvd and did not pull the harness. Mass air is connected. I get all the normal engine lights. The coil is connected, as is the alternator. The only thing that was a little odd was that on the primary side of the coil has a resistance of 0.9 ohm, whereas the manual requires up to 0.65 ohm. The battery in my meter is low, so I thought the reading was reasonable. I have followed all the advice in the manual on IG1 - . Tomorrow, I will start tracing out wires. Problems is I dont really know where to start other than figuring out the logic of the ecu and watching my meter as I try to start it.

Hmm, I did replace the brushes in my alt. If I screwed this up I dont see how this would have effects like what I am experiencing.

Karl

Karl, I assume you have no fuel problems? if you remove the fuel return from the fuel regulator, crank the engine... do you get fuel comming out?

knorrena · 06-11-07, 09:05 AM

At this point I dont suspect that I have fuel problems; however, as Doug pointed out, my support for this is weak as I merely checked for fuel by removing the outlet hose and confiming that it was wet with fuel. To confirm, I will pop off the return hose from the regulator, put a longer hose on and feed this into a bottle, then try to start the truck. I should not take too long to fill a small bottle. I am applying these precautions because I dont want fuel laying around while I am trying to confirm spark.

As I was riding to work today I had a thought on your fuel issue - I hope that you are not insulted by it. Are you sure that you installed the filter the right way around? I am thinking that the fuel filter might have a check valve in it to prevent bleeding off fuel pressure when the truck is off. If its the wrong way around you will not get any pressure.

I spent an 0.5 hours looking for broken wires and found none. Just for fun I tried to start the truck and nothing.

Karl

IdahoDoug · 06-11-07, 09:33 AM

Karl,

Checking fuel flow after the regulator means a fault regulator could lead to the wrong conclusion. So if it doesn't flow, be sure to also check flow before the reg to rule it out.

I can't see new alt brushes being a problem for you guys. That's so easy even a caveman could do it.*

DougM

*No implication that cavemen as a group or any specific caveman as an individual are incapable is implied.

dcarlo · 06-11-07, 09:35 AM

Thanks Karl,
at this point I will take any suggestions... insulting or not... :-)

Yes, I had already re-checked the filter as I thought perhaps I had installed backwards, but the filter is clearly marked in and out, so ... filter is in correctly.

I'm interested in hearing what you find....

--don