[MDarius]

Learned a couple things from my experiences with my roof rack, thought I'd share. They are pretty obvious, but often that's why we overlook them.

Background:
I built a Moose style rack last year. It wasn't as nice as some of them out there, but the concept was the same. I used a rack that went from the spoiler to the windshield. We used it for a trip to the Oregon coast from Utah. I had WAY too much weight up there, easily 400 lbs+, but because I took the time to distribute it evenly front to back and side to side, taking in to consideration the distribution of gear and people inside the vehicle, the Cruiser sat flat and there was honestly no noticable sway on the road, even taking turns faster than I should have. (I didn't make it a practice, but at 2:00 AM in Idaho, they sneak up on you.) I took it off road a little and noticed it right off, but that wasn't the goal of this trip.

Last fall/winter I hacked the rack and made it just under half the length of the Cruiser so I could mount it without help. It now comes to just in front of the door pillar. This weekend I loaded it up, I had...I'll say 150 to 200 lbs up there. I took one of the 3rd row seats out and put the heavier gear inside where possible. This was all strapped down using the seat anchor points and a military net in order to protect the kids. I know I had less gear on this trip, but MAN was the Cruiser unstable. I took it real easy anywhere I went, on or off road. On the way home I was able to redistribute the weight, plus we were quite a bit lighter with 4 days of food gone. The rig handled pretty well, but the back end was still lower than the front. If I had to do it again I would move the rack forward on the Cruiser so the weight was centered or a little forward of the center line, compensating for all the gear inside, also in the back. I'm sure it would have made a difference.

I know I'll get preached at for having too much gear up top in the first place, but sometimes it's unavoidable. 2 adults and 4 kids in the most capable 4 wheel drive on the planet, travelling off road for 4 days. It's a lot of gear. Really your gear-base is the same whether it's a weekend or a month. The difference is a few more clothes and the food you take.

Moral of the story:
1) Take all weight factors in to consideration when configuring your ride.
2) Position your rack, and the gear on it, according to the load inside the vehicle and the type of driving / terrain you'll be dealing with. 3) Have the right rack for the trip. I wish I'd kept mine full length instead of hacking it.
4) Pay more for good, lightweight gear up front instead of buying cheap heavy stuff multiple times over the years.
5) A good suspension can make up for your load...a little. A medium lift would have made a world of difference in handling the weight.
6) Maybe it's time for me to consider a good off-road trailer. $$$$

[sseaman]

good thoughts, thanks for sharing

[Box Rocket]

Interesting. I'll be building a Moose style rack soon I think and it gives me a bit to think about.

[Panzer]

I have noticed that when I have a lot of weight in the rear of my truck (say 2-300lbs of drawer, tools, camping gear, etc and 1-2 persons in the truck) that I have a lot more back end boogie than when I am empty. Initially it spooked me until I got comfortable with the extra sway.
When I would start a hard turn into a curve there is a slight delay before the body starts to roll opposite the turn and there is a more pronounced lean when it gets where it wants to be, leanwise. I was initially spooked until I played with it and realized I was stable just more lean that I was used to. I still would not want to do the "Consumer Reports swerve test", loaded like that it would probably come unstuck but generally I am ok with it. I am going to replace my 100K shocks to see if that improves the onset rate of my body roll.
Off road I have had no concerns with the additional weight. I am not carrying any roof weight so my experience may or may not have anything in common with your experience.
CAS

[MDarius]

The back end boogie is exactly what I was dealing with this weekend. I know my shocks aren't new, but I don't know how long they have been on either. They don't seem to be in bad shape. I'm waiting to change them until I can do the medium lift. I'm not sure how much difference that would make. Anybody have ideas on that?

[CodyRx7]

Oh - you're doing this with the stock shocks only?

I load my truck up with 250lbs on the roof with the ARB rack and 4 or 5 adults at times inside plus whatevers in back with the J springs and L shocks and don't notice a difference on the road or trails.

Your stock shocks and springs aren't designed to handle all the extra weight you add, and are most likely significantly worn out so they now handle even less weight.

[KSV]

Since I have ruined roof on my 60 LC beyond any repairs by using roof rack I became very negative toward them. My current one have not got one and appears like previous owner(s) used only something very light like two bars for ski. I am still plan to bolt something on the roof, but t would be only lights and antenna bar. My opinion is if one needs to carry lots of stuff and have no room (i.e. your situation with 4 kids), then it is time to think about off-road trailer (i.e. I am fully agree with your conclusion number 6).
PS New decent shocks and springs make a lots of difference.

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Originally Posted by KSV

Since I have ruined roof on my 60 LC beyond any repairs by using roof rack I became very negative toward them.

What you do?

[KSV]

Originally Posted by 98 SNAKE EATER

What you do?

Just carry around on mountains tracks lots of heavy stuff on the roof; it starts to rust above gutters and finally rust trough. I took me around 7 years to achieve this though

[MTNRAT]

There is your problem. Stock springs and Shocks! IMHO the weakest link in the 80 series. Stock springs and shocks just plain suck and I think they handle so poorly that they are actually a liability, even when unloaded.
Cheerio,
Sean

[IdahoDoug]

Define "handle so poorly", because if it's going to be a measured test through a cone course I'll kick your ass so soundly with a stock 80 it will make your eyes spin. If it's going to be max side angle on a hill - ditto. If it's going to be whose truck rolls first going faster in 5mph increments through a cone course - ditto. If it's going to be whose truck rolls faster with 400lbs on the roof on same course - ditto.

When you lift a truck even just a few inches you are raising the center of gravity to a degree that simply cannot be made up with higher spring rates unless they're so hard your brain is rattling. I'll take any lifted truck on this forum and roll it in a mall parking lot within 30 seconds of you handing me the keys and I'll bet you the pink slip to either one of my trucks I can do it. I could do the same with mine, just might take 35 seconds (heh). They'll all roll. But yours will go first.

Stock trucks don't handle loads? Toss a set of rear Airlift springs in your rear coils and get back to me on that. I just got back from a weekend camping trip. Had 2 adults, 2 kids and full camping gear in the truck, plus a 6000lb boat on the hitch (650lb down force, which translates to a LOT more compared to cargo because the load is cantilevered well behind the axle). We drove winding 2 laners and dodged a dog at 60mph without missing a beat or spilling any cappucino (did that this morning trying to answer the phone and negotiate a turn while juggling a cup - trashed a favorite 10 year old sweatshirt. Grrr.)

Seriously. Lifted trucks are going to handle differently, but until you define what's "better" about their handling I'm not with you. I WILL run circles around you in my stock truck in just about any situation you can devise. I consider fresh factory shocks for $100 every 100k a PM item against rollovers.

DougM

[CodyRx7]

We're not talking fresh stock shocks/springs, Doug....it sounds like his are quite worn out.

[IdahoDoug]

Yeah, if they're worn out then they should be replaced. The springs are probably fine unless they've been offroaded a lot - it's the factory shocks that help handling and a set of Airlifts would handle increasing the load capacity. Ironically, installing the AirLifts you've got the rear shock lowers loosened already, so minutes away from a shock swap.

Fresh factory shocks and springs will outhandle fresh aftermarket lifts and shocks any day of the week. Just remember they'll ALL roll and everybody drive safely, eh?

DougM

[MDarius]

I was hoping Doug would chime in on this one. I don't think the shocks/springs are really worn out. Jumping on the bumper it seems to behave the way you would want it to. Of course, I don't have anything to compare it to.

Doug, you mentioned the airlift inside the coils. In the most recent issue of the mag / catalog published by 4wheel parts they have a write up on the airlift springs. What are you running? I do ultimately want a 2 -2.5'' lift to improve clearance off-road, but I do not use my truck the same way every day or every trip. Sometimes I would like to have the lift and am traveling light, other times there is no lift required and I'm traveling heavy.

My point is, getting a lift to ease the burden on the backend, like heavies in the rear and mediums in front, isn't what I need. Most of the time with a set up like that I'd have stinkbug. I'm interested in the adjustable features of the airlift. My understanding is that the airlift will provide adjustable load handling, not vertical lift. [[It should probably be 'air springs' or 'airbags' instead of airlift, just for clarification] Edit: Duh! Airlift is the brand.] The load handling is really what I think I need. Comments?

[EricE]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Define "handle so poorly", because if it's going to be a measured test through a cone course I'll kick your ass so soundly with a stock 80 it will make your eyes spin. If it's going to be max side angle on a hill - ditto. If it's going to be whose truck rolls first going faster in 5mph increments through a cone course - ditto. If it's going to be whose truck rolls faster with 400lbs on the roof on same course - ditto.

When you lift a truck even just a few inches you are raising the center of gravity to a degree that simply cannot be made up with higher spring rates unless they're so hard your brain is rattling. I'll take any lifted truck on this forum and roll it in a mall parking lot within 30 seconds of you handing me the keys and I'll bet you the pink slip to either one of my trucks I can do it. I could do the same with mine, just might take 35 seconds (heh). They'll all roll. But yours will go first.

Stock trucks don't handle loads? Toss a set of rear Airlift springs in your rear coils and get back to me on that. I just got back from a weekend camping trip. Had 2 adults, 2 kids and full camping gear in the truck, plus a 6000lb boat on the hitch (650lb down force, which translates to a LOT more compared to cargo because the load is cantilevered well behind the axle). We drove winding 2 laners and dodged a dog at 60mph without missing a beat or spilling any cappucino (did that this morning trying to answer the phone and negotiate a turn while juggling a cup - trashed a favorite 10 year old sweatshirt. Grrr.)

Seriously. Lifted trucks are going to handle differently, but until you define what's "better" about their handling I'm not with you. I WILL run circles around you in my stock truck in just about any situation you can devise. I consider fresh factory shocks for $100 every 100k a PM item against rollovers.

DougM

I don't know. The handling and FEEL was definetly improved when I went to OME medium springs and shocks (which does lift 2.5" or so). Would it still roll over sooner than stock in a consumers report test? I don't know but it greatly improves my confidence. It is just more predictable with the stiffer springs.

[IdahoDoug]

MDarius,

Better load handling with zero sag is pretty much exactly what the Airlifts are for. Being able to handle no load one day, and 1000lbs on the rear axle with a level truck the next. To answer your question, I'm using the AirLift 1000 springs they recommend for my truck. I've had them on 3 vehicles.

Eric,

A surefooted feeling definitely makes driving more pleasant, and that's a desirable trait. Just try to keep in mind that you are indeed more apt to flip from the added height. We used to do a lot of research on handling and I got to see the danger of raising the center of gravity on a regular basis. I know many of you don't want to hear this, but it's worth noting that the safest setup is a stock suspension with fresh factory shocks. It's the only combination that's been rigorously and exhaustively tested to minimize rollover danger while offering outstanding offroad mobility.

DougM

[KSV]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

but it's worth noting that the safest setup is a stock suspension with fresh factory shocks. It's the only combination that's been rigorously and exhaustively tested to minimize rollover danger while offering outstanding offroad mobility.

DougM

May I object this point? My objection is due to the fact that Toyota fits different spring and shocks to different trims of LC while vehicles essentially the same. Thus your point lead to statement that softer spring and shocks on luxury models of LC “been rigorously and exhaustively tested to minimize rollover danger while offering outstanding offroad mobility” while *THE SAME* LC with lower trim level has firmer springs, sits higher and obviously been “more” “rigorously and exhaustively tested to minimize rollover danger while offering outstanding offroad mobility” because from factory it offer better off-road ability then luxury stabling. Toyota (and any other manufactures for this merit) apart of providing all-around good package also concern about cost, while many aftermarket manufactures not so cost-concern. In another word I have no doubts that Toyota can do suspension as good as (or probably even better) then say OME. They do not do it because high-demanding off-road buyers never make majority of their clients (95 or even more LC never see even gravel road), thus their mainstream vehicle would need to be more plush-ride oriented. However fully agree with you that obsession with lifting ultimately lead to less roll-over resistance.
Cheers

[IdahoDoug]

KSV,

Each combination of springs and shocks that Toyota has offered to the public has been tested for rollover stability using a set of standardized tests. They may have been adjusted to appeal to a different market, such as the Lexus version, but they still have been tested.

Aftermarket companies who offer replacement shocks don't test their shocks in this manner, so you really have no idea what impact it has on emergency stability or rollover resistance. Directionally, some aftermarket makers out there specialize in offroad capability so it would be reasonable to expect that their shocks may alter the suspension in a way that improves offroad ability. However, this may have a disasterous affect on emergency handling. When it comes to an SUV, even small deteriorations in the suspension's ability to cope with extreme onroad handling challenges can have major impacts. Much less so on sedans or sports cars.

In a nutshell, the safest setup is a spring/shock combination tailored and tested by Toyota for your particular vehicle.

Edit: I offer this viewpoint for the benefit of forum members, many of which don't fully grasp that they are driving a vehicle that in stock form can be rolled in a manner that would seem startlingly easy. Based upon the conversations we routinely have here, I perceive this and I want to keep the issue front and center for people who are either new to an SUV or new to the forum. Modifications like larger tires, lifts, and roof loads on large racks make me shudder because most here drive their cars every day on public roads and wheel only a few hundred miles a year out of the 15,000 or so annual miles.

DougM

[MDarius]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

...I know many of you don't want to hear this, but it's worth noting that the safest setup is a stock suspension with fresh factory shocks...

I JUST WANT MY 2 INCHES, MAN!!!

Alright, really though, everyone should know that with any modification you make to your vehicle you have to adjust your driving habits. With 400 lbs. on the roof, I am not going to tackle off camber situations, take freeway exits at ludicrous speeds...which might be 25 MPH, and I am going to drive more defensively. The same should go for a 6 inch lift, oversize tires, etc., etc. Same thing going from a low slung sports car to an SUV. You have to drive differently. A short lift is not going to cause you to have an accident tomorrow, your driving might though...and possibly the guy that T-bones you. The vehicle, in whatever configuration it came from the manufacturer in, is designed to meet national safety standards and an acceptable level of safety beyond that as desired by the mfg. Some desire more than others. And some trim packages may get more than others. The fact remains that low and wide is less likely to roll than tall and skinny. We all accept different levels of risk to enjoy our driving lifestyle. My level of risk does not exceed 2.5 inches of lift. Doug's apparently doesn't exceed stock plus airlifts and ARB bumpers. It's all good!

[IdahoDoug]

Well said.

DougM