How to unlock a locked locker?

e9999 · 03-30-04, 06:54 PM

this other post about the Shift stick that won't go out of Park reminded me of (one of) my other great paranoid fear(s): the locked locker!

I started developing this particular affliction when test driving prospective 80s. Namely, i could see myself trying out the lockers on the test drive and the thing not unlocking and me being either stuck in the boonies or having to drive the 80 back all locked up on the asphalt (nah! wouldn't do that...). Fortunately, never happened, but I got worried a couple of times during my test drives.

But anyways, I think it might save somebody's day -not to mention drivetrain- if some savvy advice might be given here about how to handle that potential situation.

So let's say that you are all locked up out there. You unlock the F/R with the switch and put it back in High and lo and behold your -say- front locker is stuck on Locked. You can tell cuz the steering is weird (I don't know if the light would show it or not - anybody knows?) I know the electric stuff may be telling it that it should unlock, but let's say it's rusty and it's in there good!

Now, what do we do after trying a million times to unlock it electrically?

Could somebody tell us what to do under there, what to remove and how? I can imagine the actuator or at least the propeller shaft (but that would not protect the front diff...)

The floor is yours!

thanks
Eric

(and -Junk- if there is good stuff here, that might be a good FAQ topic?)

cruiserdan · 03-30-04, 07:07 PM

It is not very likely that a recently locked locker would freeze up unless there was an electrical problem such as a ripped harness or blown fuse or the like. If that is the case it is possible to maually apply power to the actuator and get it to move. You would need an EWD to get the correct terminals and would likely need to raise one tire off of the ground to relieve the axle wind-up since you would not be able to drive it while you are laying under it to jump the pesky terminals :

In "normal" unlocking where they won't unlock it is because the drive train is "wound-up" and the pressure needs to be relieved. This can be accomplished by driving the vehicle in an arc with the switch off.

D-

e9999 · 03-30-04, 07:19 PM

geeez, Dan, you're taking the easy way out!

Let's say it's really stuck in there, electricity be danged...
What do I remove, bang on, pull hard at, unscrew or whatever?
E

RavenTai · 03-30-04, 07:37 PM

give this thread a read for ways to unlock it manually, the shift fork and locker itself are bathed in gear lube and "should" not be the source of any problems, I would think corrosion in the actuator would be more likely

http://forum.ih8mud.com/index.php?bo...7026#msg127026

[quote author=e9999 link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg129918#msg129 918 date=1080698045]
(I don't know if the light would show it or not - anybody knows?)

thanks
Eric
[/quote]

looking at the ewd the dash bulbs have constant + power, the position switch (not the limit switches inside the actuator that tell the diff lock ecu to kill power to the motor) but the external position switch) gives the bulb ground so it can light, this is independent of every thing else in the system, if your lockers are locked you will get a light (providing no failure in the bulb wiring and position switch) there is a second ground for the bulbs through the diff lock ECU I assume this is where the blinking light comes from, I think that when you select a locker to lock the ecu provides a pulsed ground to the bulb making it blink, when the locker locks the position switch provides a steady ground and the bulb stays lit

the switch rides on the shift fork and reads actual locker position no matter where the actuator is trying to go

Gumby · 03-30-04, 08:21 PM

My rear locker recently locked and would not disengage. It froze just like it does when it won't lock. The engagement pin seized in the bore more than the spring pressure would move it. It was trying to unlock, but wouldn't move. No amount of jumpering pins would have made it unlock.

Take out the cover bolts and move the pin back with a screwdriver. Worst case, take the spring out and you can pound the pin back to disengaged, but it would have to be really stuck and probably would not have engaged.

RavenTai · 03-30-04, 08:36 PM

[quote author=RavenTai link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg129959#msg129 959 date=1080700664]
the shift fork and locker itself are bathed in gear lube and "should" not be the source of any problems, I would think corrosion in the actuator would be more likely

[/quote]

[quote author=Gumby link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg129997#msg129 997 date=1080703285]
My rear locker recently locked and would not disengage. It froze just like it does when it won't lock. The engagement pin seized in the bore more than the spring pressure would move it. It was trying to unlock, but wouldn't move. No amount of jumpering pins would have made it unlock.

Take out the cover bolts and move the pin back with a screwdriver. Worst case, take the spring out and you can pound the pin back to disengaged, but it would have to be really stuck and probably would not have engaged.
[/quote]

LOL always nice to instantly be prooved wrong, goes to show how you have to look out for Murphy

Gumby · 03-31-04, 05:27 AM

The fork and the locker itself are bathed in oil, so you're right about it not getting stuck, but the mechanical parts of the actuator assembly sure do get frozen up. Depends on what you define as the locker.

CDN_Cruiser · 03-31-04, 07:22 AM

How about the simple solution - you just drive with them locked. You needed them at some point - so leave them on and get to the trailhead. At that point, you can make a decision to hoble to the next town/home or call and have it flat towed, and then deal with it.

I see something like a broken birf as being more problematic as it requires an actual field repair to move the truck.

Cheers, Hugh

e9999 · 03-31-04, 07:41 AM

sure, Hugh, but what I'm trying to find out is if there are -say- 2 bolts to remove and 2 mins worth of work to get the frozen actuator out. And know what these are. If so, I'd rather do that than walk 30 miles in the desert...

E

CDN_Cruiser · 03-31-04, 08:49 AM

My point is that having your diffs locked does not prevent you from moving (especially in a sandy desert

) - this is not a leave-you-stuck-in-the-middle-of-the-desert kind of problem.

IIRC (Dan?), the diff actuator is theoretically not servicable (but can be) = lots of springs and things to take care of.

So, why wouldn't you just drive out?

PS, From my old locking-hub days, I find that if the lockers are sticky, turning them off and backing-up to unwind the transmission typically unlocks them.

Cheers, Hugh

e9999 · 03-31-04, 09:14 AM

oooops, typo nonsense of mine above. Of course, if you are still in the desert you can drive with the lockers locked, in a pinch.
I meant walking back from where you'd have to leave the truck (I'd hate to leave my baby alone too....)
Eric

Gumby · 03-31-04, 12:43 PM

[quote author=CDN_Cruiser link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg130262#msg130 262 date=1080748171]
My point is that having your diffs locked does not prevent you from moving (especially in a sandy desert

) - this is not a leave-you-stuck-in-the-middle-of-the-desert kind of problem.

IIRC (Dan?), the diff actuator is theoretically not servicable (but can be) = lots of springs and things to take care of.

So, why wouldn't you just drive out?

PS, From my old locking-hub days, I find that if the lockers are sticky, turning them off and backing-up to unwind the transmission typically unlocks them.

Cheers, Hugh
[/quote]

Driving on pavement with locked difs is gonna be a lot more strain on expensive parts than just climbing under the truck, taking out the four bolts on the actuator cover and pushing the pin back into place. Like you say, though, try backing, or turning in a circle, or rocking or something first.

Jim_Chow · 03-31-04, 01:06 PM

I think the actuator motor pushes over the shift fork which, in turn, engages the locker. So that would suggest you remove the 2 nuts holding down the actuator, try to push the fork over (screwdriver?). I guess it would really be pulling the fork back (outwards)?

cruiserdan · 03-31-04, 10:02 PM

If you have a stuck front a quick 'n dirty thing you could do is pop one of the drive flanges off. That would return some of your steering properties. Of course you would need to cover the exposed hub with something to keep crap out of the greasy bits.

D-

e9999 · 03-31-04, 10:04 PM

sounds like a clever plan, except that I have no idea what a drive flange is... :P
but I trust ya Dan!
E

cruiserdan · 03-31-04, 10:26 PM

Yer killin' me.... :

Come on Grasshopper, you can be better......... :birf:

thelal · 03-31-04, 10:32 PM

See post http://forum.ih8mud.com/index.php?bo...threadid=13662 for a disussion on how to lock/unlock manually

Riley · 03-31-04, 10:35 PM

I remember when Dan was convincing me to do my birfs myself instead of having the dealer do it.

The major reason was "knowledge is power". This is a good example of why a guy should do most of the service himself - when the issues do arise in the field, you know how to deal with it. Do your birfs and you'll know the flange plus lots of other important stuff.

Good idea on the flange Dan but I hope this is never needed.

Riley

Gumby · 04-01-04, 07:28 AM

Popping a drive flange is a pretty darn good eye-deer. i dunno about fighting the cone washers on the side of the road though.

e9999 · 04-01-04, 07:31 AM

dang it, so what does this flange thing do and why will it help?

(does seem to this uninitiated, though, that removing the actuator might be easier - if one can do that)?

E

Gumby · 04-01-04, 07:44 AM

The flange transfers the power from the turning axle to the wheel hub. On a part time four wheel drive they are usually unlockable, but an AWD needs to have all four hubs locked all of the time as the power will be transfered to the wheel that turns easiest when the difs are unlocked. When you remove one it will allow that wheel to turn at slower or faster speeds than the driven wheel, giving you much easier turning.
If your locker decided to unlock while you have a drive plate off, you would not go anywhere until you reinstalled it.

RavenTai · 04-01-04, 07:53 AM

the drive flange is what connects the wheel to the outer axle shaft, with one removed that wheel is no longer connected to the driveline, an interesting way to do this would be to replace your drive flanges with Aisin hubs, they are a direct bolt on in the front, the rear would require custom axle shafts but still fits the stud pattern of the hub

not sure the actuator or drive flange would be easier to remove, both would leave gaping holes where dust could get into working parts

e9999 · 04-01-04, 07:54 AM

makes sense, Gumby.
and that would not result in serious issues on asphalt like the axle end flopping about or the wheel falling off etc, right?
good to know!

Junk, ya gotta put this thread in the FAQ for sure now, if only somebody could add a nice photo or diagram of the locker actuator cover and the moving pin inside...

RT, couldn't you put the actuator cover back on after you pull the "pin" back? So no hole...

E

WolfpackTLC · 04-01-04, 08:02 AM

Cone washers are the devil and the bane of my existance. If I had spares I'd mercilessly rip them apart... I don't, so I beat them w/ a 5lb sledge and a big brass drift. Those things sure are persistent for only 22 or so ft/lbs.

RavenTai · 04-01-04, 08:03 AM

[quote author=e9999 link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg130794#msg130 794 date=1080831249]
makes sense, Gumby.
and that would not result in serious issues on asphalt like the axle end flopping about or the wheel falling off etc, right?
good to know!

Junk, ya gotta put this thread in the FAQ for sure now, if only somebody could add a nice photo or diagram of the locker actuator cover and the moving pin inside...

RT, couldn't you put the actuator cover back on after you pull the "pin" back? So no hole...

E
[/quote]

yea I gues that would work, I thouhgt you meant remove the actuator and leave it off, all 4 corners on the later 80's and the fronts on the earlier 80's are known as "full Floating" the wheel is supported an a spindle the axle shaft only porovides rotating force it does not support the weight of the truck or retain the wheel in any way, the other style "semi Floating" (rears on the early 80's) the axleshaft both drives and supports the vehickle,

Riley · 04-01-04, 09:08 PM

[quote author=RavenTai link=board=2;threadid=13988;start=msg130793#msg130 793 date=1080831200]
an interesting way to do this would be to replace your drive flanges with Aisin hubs, they are a direct bolt on in the front, the rear would require custom axle shafts but still fits the stud pattern of the hub

not sure the actuator or drive flange would be easier to remove, both would leave gaping holes where dust could get into working parts
[/quote]

I was thinking the exact same thing but then I realized that this is crazy to mod your hubs to handle the corner case of the locker failing to disengage. Man that's anal.

The cone washers are on my unfav list as well.

It's probably good to consider all of the above if it ever happens in the field but that's all the effort I'll spend on it.

I'm moving on to the PHH & flushing for spring. Eh Simon

and Greg knows I still haven't done my starter contacts.

Riley

cruiserdan · 04-02-04, 02:38 PM

I guess that I'm strange but the cone washers never seem to be an issue for me.

The method I prefer to use to remove them is to use a hammer to give the edge of the flange a "smart tap" to pop the cones. I find that one or two passes around the flange does the trick. loosen the nuts but leave a couple threads on to keep the cones from flying away.

Here is a pic:

RavenTai · 04-02-04, 02:59 PM

LOL that is because you have the SST Toyota issue ball peen hammer

my brass hammer seams to do the trick also

BTW how much wold it caost to get new dust caps liek that? mine are

'd up by the previous mechs

cruiserdan · 04-02-04, 03:04 PM

Them aint new tatercakes.

I just look after them

They are not expensive, if memory serves it is less than 5 bucks a piece. I'm not in the office today so I can't give you a hard number but I'm close.

D-

Cruiserdrew · 04-02-04, 04:56 PM

I want one of those Toyota hammers! There would have to be good cone washer karma using a Toyota ballpeen. CDan next parts order, remind me.

e9999-I would stop posting here and tear your front axle apart. You will learn more in 5 minutes than in hours of posting to the board. Seriously, you are obviously a curious guy and want to understand the Cruiser, so tear into it, order some parts, and be happy. Don't let these guys scare you about the cone washers, they come right out. The inside of the hub and knuckle is logical, even elegant. The knowledge you will gain is priceless. It amazes me, that the basic knuckle design stayed the same from the late 60's untill 1997(and even beyond in the current 70 series). Even most of the fasteners, cone washers,bearings, etc interchange, so once you tear it apart, you will understand 30 years of Toyota thinking on this topic.