[Romer]

In researching and putting together the new Tire FAQ http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/114057-tire-right-me-faq-tire-information.html

I found several mentions that Mud terrains were poor and some where even dangerous in icy conditions.

Can those who have them help me expand this to clarify if it is all MT's or certain ones.

Thanks

[MoJ]

Many mud tires lack any siping (thin grooves cut in the tread blocks/lugs) and consist of large flat surfaces, ie the ends of the tread lugs. Large flat surface on ice equals no traction and greatly lessens control as well. Some mud tires however are siped in an effort to improve their performance on ice. Siping was a deciding factor in choosing the last set of mud tires I bought.

For example, notice differences is siping between these two tread patterns



VS

[Romer]

Thanks Jason, I will add that to the FAQ. Just what I was looking for.

[MoJ]

Also should probably be mentioned that siping can be done for you at a few tire shops even though the tires weren't siped from the factory.

[KliersLC]

Swampers, even with siping, are terrible on ice.......

[Jetboy]

I'd just like to note, as was said earlier that siping can be done in a tire shop that is much much better than any factory sipe short of the dedicated snow tires. Not only does it increase traction, but increases tire life because of heat dissipation, and rides smoother. It usually costs $10/tire and every tire shop in areas with snow has or should have a siping machine. The real key is hard rubber, or poor quality rubber which gets hard in cold weather. Also unsipped mud tires have very few biting edges/area, but sipped mud tires usually aren't that bad. Michelin has some of the best tread compound for keeping pliable in cold temps.

The real problem is that lower ground pressure usually leads to worse traction on ice, however in deep snow the low ground pressure is critical to floatation.

[Gumby]

My MTRs were great on ice with dealer installed siping. As the years went by it got worse. I should have them re-siped. It worked really well.

[cary]

The general rule is the more biting edges a tire has the better it will be in snow and ice. Also, a good snow tire actually packs snow in the tread compared to a mud tire that wants to throw it free. Take a look a these snow tire picts as an idea of what you want in snow tires.

[-XXX-]

I recommend siping for your trail rigs, I have some Krawlers and some Goodyear MTRs and the goodyears are siped and it is an AWSOME improvement in traction on rocks and almost all other surfaces.

FWIW here is a sight that explains the siping history


http://www.4x4review.com/tech/siping.asp

(he actually worked at a Slaughter house if I am correct, and the floors were slippery from the meat and fat and he was busting his ass )


Here is another site that provides siping service,

http://www.sipers.com/sipers/history.asp



Very good idea for a thread Romer, I would really recommend a tid bit or 2 about Siping it is a old timers trick for traction and you will feel an improvement.

Even in that Missouri crap you were in last week!!

[IdahoDoug]

On hard packed snow on typical traveled plowed roads, it's all about siping - the biting edges as mentioned. Also as mentioned, moderen snow tires keep snow in them because snow sticks better to snow. MT tires throw it.

On ice, however, it's a different matter. This info comes to me from a former track trainer at the Steamboat Winter Driving School:

When you drive on ice in normal temps, the pressure of the tread blocks creates heat and a thin layer of water under the contact patch. At warmer temps it is worsened. Modern ice/snow tires use greater surface areas to reduce the pressure per square inch. Seems counterintuitive, eh? Anyhow, the larger surface area in contact with the ice, plus the rubber compounds that remain soft at low temps provide the superior traction of winter-specific tires. Even better than studded and siped traditional tires. I've personally compared them and couldn't agree more - no question the new stuff is far superior.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Every snow and almost even more all terrains with any size "lugs" to them have been absolutely awful in any kind of ice or slick snow surface, basically just the nature of the beast of that sort of tire type. this includes MTRs, GY A/Ts, Swampers, and a slew of others. The best snow tires in the world are those with small flexible lugs. the pic shown above of the Hakkapelitas shows exactly this. hope it helps. I am curious about the results of siping on a big mud terrain tire, I could see it helping but still being medeocre, versus, say a BFG AT..

[Mark W]

I've driven the latest studless snow/ice tires and I've driven studded MTs and Swampers.

Studs still win.


Mark...

[Driley]

I have been running Nokian Vatiivas on my 1994 LC and they have great snow and ice traction and are pretty good on dry. 265/75 16 was the only size they had in stock, but fit the factory height nicely.

[hadji_85]

How about putting studs on the tires to increase the ice traction?

[Romer]

Originally Posted by Driley

I have been running Nokian Vatiivas on my 1994 LC and they have great snow and ice traction and are pretty good on dry. 265/75 16 was the only size they had in stock, but fit the factory height nicely.

I don't believe these are Mud Terrains based on the tread pattern and what I found in a 5 minute google of these tires

[Jule]

Has anyone tried these? I have wanted to try a green diamond mud tire. Get the mud tire for deep snow, slush, mud that an AT will choke on and still have good ice traction.

Green Diamond is a technology developed in Iceland:

"Green Diamond Tires. These tires are specifically intended for winter driving, but are also meant for year-round use. The Green Diamond granules (1 mm), which are comparable in strength to diamonds, are evenly embedded in the tire tread during manufacture. As the tire tread gradually wears, new Green Diamonds continually “appear” on the surface. In addition to being safe, these tires are very environmentally friendly: noise- and air-pollution levels are no greater than from regular, unstudded tires. And Green Diamond tires are particularly well suited for use with ABS break systems."

"Green Diamond tires provide similar traction on ice as studded tires, according to tests conducted by VTI (Swedish Public Roads Administration). And, Green Diamond tires cause 93% less road- wear than studded tires, according to BAST (German Public Roads Administration)."

The following U.S. vendors sell mud tires with Green Diamond as retreads.


http://greendiamondtire.com/ (Sizes up to 31")



http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html (Sizes up to 37", image below)

[Driley]

Sorry, for the off topic post. I just mentioned them because they have been great all year street tires that perform well on ice. Definitely not for the mud.

[SUMOTOY]

Originally Posted by Romer

In researching and putting together the new Tire FAQ http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=114057

I found several mentions that Mud terrains were poor and some where even dangerous in icy conditions.

Can those who have them help me expand this to clarify if it is all MT's or certain ones.

Thanks

Thinking studless here... IME, BFG MTR's are dangerous in icy conditions, btdt. MTR with siping are less dangerous in icy conditions, but their hard compound isn't really conducive to ice, btdt2. As Eventmaster of Gruppe-q Winter Driving Event at Steamboat for 4 years, and Steamboat attendee for 14years, very few non ice tires will compete with an ice tire.

You can get close, Hakka makes some good winter tires in the non ice category that compete well, as does michelin. The key as mentioned is the compound of the tire rubber, regardless of siping.

I run Blizzacks Ice tires on my 80, and did at Steamboat this past year. There is absolutely no comparo that a dedicated Ice tire will outperform any snow, and any MTR/AT tire. There can be some situations where an ice tires will be bested by a dedicated snow in snow, but not often.

Prior to getting Blizzacks, I ran a variety of snow tires on my quattros to see how close a snow could get to the Blizzacks. I have several years of tire comparos, based on a lot of testing. Mostly automotive, not truck, but my experience is the same at Steamboat with my 80 this past year.

The reason I avoided Blizzacks was that I really have a problem with the sidewall flex in them. That is part of what makes the tread stay on the ground, so you learn to live with the decreased steering response. That said, I like the 80 Blizzack application better than the car apps, since they have appear stiffer sidewall to handle the weight. With my quattros, I so dislike tarmac behavior, I have a set of Blizzacks that I haul to Steamboat, run the week, and they go into storage for another year. I've run 9 months with the Blizzacks on my 80, and really enjoy them as an allaround tire. Quiet, Great in the wet, decent offroad (light duty), and phenom on ice.

There is no question in my mind that MTR's wouldn't make it around an ice track without a lot of snow attached. I had several incidents in my 4R with MTR's, where on ice you realized you were just along for the ride, siped or no, latest tread design included. With the 80, I was amazed how much of the supercharger was required, just to bust the Blizzacks loose.

HTH and my .02

ST

[firetruck41]

Though I'm sure the results are similar, did you have BFG MTs or Goodyear MTRs?

[thorvald]

I don't have any experience with other mt's, just the truxxus mt's and in pure ice, going over 35mph the landcruiser started sliding slightly side to side. Other cars were passing us and we turned around (didn't need to go where we were going that bad). At 35 and under they seemed fine.

I think the AT that was on before was probably better on ice. but that's all it was better in. In pure ice, should probably have chains on anyways, and then your still going under 35

[FirstToy]

This is a rare issue for socal but I asked about it in another thread as I was thinking of hitting some snow this winter (thanks for starting this topic, Romer- good one) and I always thought MTR/MT type tires would not be good on ice/snow roads.

This is kind of important as the road up to Big Bear could be deadly with slipping on ice... my snow driving is SO infrequent that a 2nd set of tires is totally a waste. Maybe invest in some chains... anyway,

Bajataco (I think Norcal Doug too?) siped the center lugs only on the MTR's to prevent chunking off the the side lugs. Maybe that is an option for compromise...? I'm thinking of doing this before I hit the snow.

Factory siped MT tires (like the Toyo or Cooper) is so minimal, better than nothing but would it really help in ice?

[cary]

Just to add one thing that nobody has really mentioned (Sumotoy has eluded to it indirectly), but there is also the issue of how different tires break loose in snow and ice. MT tires will break loose without warning and are very hard to bring back in, while a dedicated snow tire will progressively let go and come back.

[Jason Andrews]

I agree the Blizzaks are good, we ran them on a Zamboni in place of studded and boy was I Surprised! Never would thought they had a chance against a studded tire. For bigger sizes I would most def say BFGs M/T are dangerous in snowy and icy conditions. Had 35's for three years. Hard rubber compound and Big lugs with no siping.

IMHO locking the center diff keeps the truck really drive like it is in 4WD! It keeps me from locking up front or rear axles/brakes...they all brake more equally. Also tracks straighter when braking descending mountain passes on snow.

However, it does have a drawback. When taking tight turns especially at slower speeds the driveline can bind and cause tires to break loose.

[Capocaccia]

Originally Posted by Jule

Has anyone tried these?

http://greendiamondtire.com/ (New, sizes up to 31")



http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html (Retreads, sizes up to 36")

It looks to me like a replica of those two. The top picture is a Dunlop Radial Mud Rover (the one on the left) and the bottom one is a Buckshot Maxxis Mudder.

[FirstToy]

Originally Posted by Jason Andrews

IMHO locking the center diff keeps the truck really drive like it is in 4WD! It keeps me from locking up front or rear axles/brakes...they all brake more equally. Also tracks straighter when braking descending mountain passes on snow.

However, it does have a drawback. When taking tight turns especially at slower speeds the driveline can bind and cause tires to break loose.

that is interesting and a good tip- I will keep this in mind!

[Nay]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

On hard packed snow on typical traveled plowed roads, it's all about siping - the biting edges as mentioned. Also as mentioned, moderen snow tires keep snow in them because snow sticks better to snow. MT tires throw it.

On ice, however, it's a different matter. This info comes to me from a former track trainer at the Steamboat Winter Driving School:

When you drive on ice in normal temps, the pressure of the tread blocks creates heat and a thin layer of water under the contact patch. At warmer temps it is worsened. Modern ice/snow tires use greater surface areas to reduce the pressure per square inch. Seems counterintuitive, eh? Anyhow, the larger surface area in contact with the ice, plus the rubber compounds that remain soft at low temps provide the superior traction of winter-specific tires. Even better than studded and siped traditional tires. I've personally compared them and couldn't agree more - no question the new stuff is far superior.

This is where the multicell compound tires excel - millions of microscopic pores pull the water off the ice like a sponge. They are amazing, but once you get a bit of depth the lug spacing on an MT can outperform in a big way.

This thread doesn't really work, because "ice" can mean so many things. Romer, as you know in Colorado, our champagne powder quickly becomes hardpacked and "icy". TRXUS MT's are simply amazing in my experience - they are as good here as the Nokkians I have run. Great lateral traction, no surprises in braking. I've run my inlaws to DIA from Monument Hill in varying winter conditions (dry to wet to slush to hardpack/icy) at 55-65 mph and all they commented on was how comfortable the 80 was.

On black ice, however, they would sled. But we don't get black ice. If you do, then studs/chains or an ice tire.

Having said this, I've run BFG MT's and they are brick sleds...just amazingly bad. BFG AT's are quite poor as well. Siping on an MT makes a huge difference. A siped MT that has a good snow tread like trxus is, IME, a far better overall winter tire than an AT because it can handle both hardpack/icy conditions and the deeper stuff that tends to pack AT's and make them unpredictable.

That is why I put up with trxus and their balancing requirements. I have simply never had better snow performance with any tire for on/offroad use in the Rockies. They just get better the worse conditions get around here (and it is snowing as I look out the window right now )

Compound is also tremendously important - if you live where it gets very cold you need a compound that doesn't freeze up like a cheap set of all seasons. That's why the high performance AWD market loves the silica compounds that can run very high speeds (130+ mph) in very cold temps...but you lose the microcell compound for that black ice.

Nay

[robjam]

My rig had Kelly Safari MSR's on it when I purchased it. It was winter in Jackson, WY. I asked to have them replaced, as I was not happy with their performance on packed snow, especially when trying to stop. The dealer told me they are designed for this weather and to try them a little longer. Meanwhile, the dealer installed 6 new Kelly Safari MSR on his dually, after all the raving he heard about them when he was looking into my inquiry. Drove his truck to Montana for the weekend, came back and pulled every tire off his truck and gave me $600.00 to replace my Kelly Safari MSR too.
Those tires scared the hell out of him!
I got some Mastercraft studded tires from Big-O and never had another problem!

[KDan]

I was concerned about mud tires being bad on ice when I bought my BFG MT KM's so I had them siped. They worked quite well on ice for the first couple of seasons. Then last year (at about 30k on the tires and 50% wear) I noticed a marked decrease in ice traction. I actually went into a 4 wheel drift on the highway going about 45 mph. This had NEVER happened before. I got to looking at my tires afterward and noticed that I had worn them beyond much of the siping, so I will have to get them re-siped this season.

Bottom line: never any trouble with siped BFG MT's, however they can be scary on ice without the siping.

Dan

[concretejungle]

I agree with Nay on the truxus performing very well in snow, slush, hard pack. Ice (black ice) is a different story.

[cary]

Originally Posted by robjam

My rig had Kelly Safari MSR's on it when I purchased it. It was winter in Jackson, WY. I asked to have them replaced, as I was not happy with their performance on packed snow, especially when trying to stop. The dealer told me they are designed for this weather and to try them a little longer. Meanwhile, the dealer installed 6 new Kelly Safari MSR on his dually, after all the raving he heard about them when he was looking into my inquiry. Drove his truck to Montana for the weekend, came back and pulled every tire off his truck and gave me $600.00 to replace my Kelly Safari MSR too.
Those tires scared the hell out of him!
I got some Mastercraft studded tires from Big-O and never had another problem!

This brings up a very important issue. Most people have very little baseline to comment on how well different tires work. Most of the time when people compare tire X to tire Y it is when they have replaced an old set. The new set of tires will almost always feel better, even if they aren't as good, because a new decent tire will almost always outperform a old great tire, simply because as a tire wears and gets old its compounding changes, it wears unevenly, and it looses its ability to channel water and give traction as its edges round off.

To make it even worse, it is next to impossible to compare tires from one vehicle to another, as the vehicle dynamics are so different. That tire that feels great on a 4000 pound 4 runner may feel like garbage on a 5500 pound 80 or 100.

Then there is the last factor, driver perception. Most drivers are less than perceptive as to what a particular tire may be doing. As you get into guys that race or run a lot of track time, you see a lot more description of how a tire feels, i.e., it has good initial turn in, it is progressive, good feeback, goes away when it gets hot, won't come back after they let go. Most less experienced drivers lack the reference to articulate the differences. A tire that has high traction and lets go suddenly may be described as a driver that has never exceeded the traction limits of the tire as "having incredible traction" while an experienced track driver would say "lots of traction but scary at the limit and once it lets go, you can't pick it back up."

The only true way to get an accurate comparison of tires is when Tire Rack or Consumers reports does a comparision test. The Tire Rack tests are especially good as they perform a blind test with identical vehicles and the drivers not knowing what tires they are on. The problem is they don't perform these tests on A/T tires.

I am going to add one additional issue with tires and that concerns foul weather performance. Rain traction is vastly affected by pavement type. Here in CA we have about 50 different pavement combos, which vary highly in their wet coefficient of friction. Compare that to Oregon which has very consistant pavement. For snow and ice performace, traction will vary wildlely as temperature changes. Ice is the slickest right at freezing temps, getting stickier as the temperature goes down (this is because at freezing there is still a very thin layer of water that forms when the tire drives over which creates a nice lubercated surface). Snow traction also varies depending on if it is fresh, packed, and what lays under it.

The bottom line, individual reviews vary greatly in how accurate they may be. If many reviews indicate the same problem with a tire, they are probably correct, but don't overweigh any individual review and consider it's source.