89 truck ring and pinion set up?

chesshircat · 08-08-08, 03:51 PM

I got an 89 v-6 i'm replacing the pinion bearings in. A friend borowed the truck and the pinion seal blew, so he replaced it, but he drew the flange nut down with an impact and the bearing started to wine. It had very few miles this way, i pulled the bearings and they feel fine but i'm going to replace them anyway. has anyone here done a good write up on this? whats the chance I can reinstall with the ring gear in the same position and the backlash and everything will be ok? I have new pinion bearings and crush ring but i'm going to use the old carrier bearings, I didn't remove the ring gear and still have the carrier adjustment in the same slots.

WristPin · 08-08-08, 05:12 PM

if you have to ask what are the chances of it, its a job you shouldnt tackle alone. Setting the backlash obviously can be done every time, but its not like you just pull a few bolts, rip out the carrier, and impact it back on.

you are looking at a full fledged setup. And dont lie, we know it wasnt your friend, it was you.

Its OK, my uhh, friend screws stuff up all the time.

its OK to reuse the carrier bearings. the FSM has runout backlash and preload specs for new and used.
Like I said, unless some one is there to guide you through, your chances of failure at this job are high. Unless you have all the tools, ask a lot of questions and have a very high mechanical aptitude, this job is best left to the pros.

chesshircat · 08-08-08, 06:22 PM

you have one of those "friends" too huh. This time it actually wasn't me, not the worse thing he did to it, he backed into the hopper of one of our concrete pumps with the drivers side door open...kinda squished it up a little. I have very high mech skills, tractors, concrete pumps, race cars, been twisting wrenches for a long time. I've watched it done a couple of times, thought this would be a good oportunity to try myself. I know where the teeth are suppose to contact, toe heel all that stuff, just never done it. the truck probably hasn't been driven more than 5k in the last 9 yrs so if i screw it up it just goes back in the barn.

I ask a sh*& pot of questions, thats why i'm here.

doesn't the proper torque on the flange nut, pull the bearings against the crush ring to get the right preload and position of the pinion? there weren't any shims anywhere. Maybe I should try it

WristPin · 08-08-08, 08:43 PM

Do it! you sound like you will succeed. How else are you going to learn if you dont do it?

You are right the pinion flange nut is what essentially crushes the sleeve, and then once the preload is set, the pinion is in the right spot. the pinion bearing preload is about 14 inch pounds. there is a short range a few inch pounds one way or another is good. Like I said before, there are specs for used and new parts.

You need to get a FSM. And the right type of tool to measure inch pounds. In the FSM they use a needle scale. I have never seen one that does inch pounds in such a small measurement.

The one i use is an old Snap-On ( all my tools are Snap-On) meter. It looks like a big ol screwdriver with a dial bolted to it.

you also need a vise to put the third in, a dial indicator, and you need to make a tool to hold the pinion flange. just a flat bar and two peices of round stock welded to it. that same tool also is used to turn the bearing side nuts on the carrier.

one thing about the FSM it says to perform a few tasks in a certain order, but its best to do it backwards from the instruction. Only because the tool required to perform the task of removing the front bearing is a very difficult tool to find or make.

Basically they say to install the two bearings flange and nut for the sake of setting up the back lash. with out the crush sleeve, shim and seal. skip that step. crush the sleeve, get it so there is minimal play in the pinion then drop in the carrier and set the back lash.

the shim is a round flat looking part that sits under the crush sleeve. keep and reuse those parts.
in some cases you have to add or subtract shims, which means the crush sleeve needs to be replaced.

i have done hundreds of diff of all makes, but mostly toyotas. if you have ANY questions ask. Dont be a fool and assume. Ask.

2ndGenToyotaFan · 08-08-08, 11:03 PM

Go to gearinstalls.com and read up, more than you need to know there...

chesshircat · 08-09-08, 04:19 AM

Do you torque the flange nut to a specific torque that will set the preload, or do you keep tightening the flange nut until the correct preload is achieved?

I guess this is a little too technical for a fish scale, just an excuse to buy another tool, all my torgue wrenches are the click type and way too big

I don't have a FSM, I do have the one you can get at auto parts stores somewhere, would that have the info, I have a FSM for my Tacoma, are the thirds the same by any chance?

a dial indicator...i asume that is to help choose a shim or shims for the pinion? can i get away without one

It seems to me, you would have to do the pinion 1st, once the sleeve is "crushed" its a done deal?

I really don't think there were any shims in mine, i'll check again, can i get a pack of shims from the dealer?

thanks
Brett

WristPin · 08-10-08, 12:56 AM

Do you torque the flange nut to a specific torque that will set the preload, or do you keep tightening the flange nut until the correct preload is achieved? There is not a torque you set it to. cause the amount of force required to do this part changes. at first it will take a lot. and here they specifiy a MAX torque. somthing like 225 pounds. chances of exceeding that are slim. You have to use a long breaker to first crush the sleeve. once it crushes you will feel it. at this point the first step is to get it so there is minimal lateral play. only for the sake of being able to turn the ring without the pinion walking up it. dont set the pinion bearing preload till last.

I guess this is a little too technical for a fish scale, just an excuse to buy another tool, all my torgue wrenches are the click type and way too big Like I said you need the tool I talked about. is your ring and pinion worth compromising with a damn fish scale?

I don't have a FSM, I do have the one you can get at auto parts stores somewhere, would that have the info, I have a FSM for my Tacoma, are the thirds the same by any chance? chilton, haynes are garbage and should not be read by anyone who plans on doing real repairs to their truck., the best thing to do with one of those is use it as fire starter. The taco FSM will outline the same exact proceedures, as the thirds are simalar in design. the sizes of the R&P, bearings and specs should all be expected to be different, however. check out the link provided by Jerod, and check the FAQ for info about FSM's.

a dial indicator...i asume that is to help choose a shim or shims for the pinion? can i get away without one hahahaha! not exactly. it measures backlash. get your back lash close, then start dialing in the pattern, as visualised with prussian blue. once the pattern is achieved you check and recheck the backlash and then check and recheck the pattern. with proper backlash and improper pattern is when you decide if a shim needs to be taken out, or added. if you re use only the existing shims, chances of initial success is likely. if its jacked. sorry bout your luck, but now you get to tear all bck apart, press out the pinion and add or remove a shim. very few toyotas i have worked on use more than one shim. so chances would be determining what size to add.

It seems to me, you would have to do the pinion 1st, once the sleeve is "crushed" its a done deal? yep. once its crushed it then needs to be slightly torqued to achieve proper bearing preload. but you only set the final preload when you have done what i just described.
I really don't think there were any shims in mine, i'll check again, can i get a pack of shims from the dealer? that is possible. I have never ran across that. take a pic of all the guts. i will tell you what you got. lay it out in order. dont make a pile of the parts. im a greasy mechanic, not a picasso. you can buy a set of shims from the dealer. i sure hope you kept the carrier bearing side nuts marked for each side and not mixed up.

thanks
Brett you are welcome

chesshircat · 08-12-08, 06:11 PM

Found my Haynes manual, shoved it under the leg of my bench to level it out.

I checked, there is a shim. Nut, Washer, Yoke, Shim...correct?

It will be awhile before i try to set this thing up, I like to get all my sh*& organized 1st. I need to get a torque wrench, dial indicator and fab up some brackets to mount the third to an engine stand. Any suggestions where to buy a nice dial indicator?

Found my taco FSM, you think i can follow it but use the specs for the mini. I'll try that link and see if i can get the specs from it.

I'm not real comp literate, when i get ready and have more questions can i just find this thread and reply to it again to get in touch with you, does it tell you when I reply to you?

I never took the locking tabs off the side nuts so each side is still together, I will make sure I keep them together and marked for each side. I took the caps off and kept each side as a unit

I really appreciate all your help

WristPin · 08-12-08, 09:02 PM

Found my Haynes manual, shoved it under the leg of my bench to level it out.hahahahahahahaha! Nice.

I checked, there is a shim. Nut, Washer, Yoke, Shim...correct?

almost. you wont get to the shim till you press out the rear bearing. from the nut back in this order:
nut, washer, flange (2 parts) seal, oil slinger, front bearing, crush sleeve, rear bearing, shim.

It will be awhile before i try to set this thing up, I like to get all my sh*& organized 1st. I need to get a torque wrench, dial indicator and fab up some brackets to mount the third to an engine stand. Any suggestions where to buy a nice dial indicator?

All I buy is Snap On. But thats expensive, for a guy who does not use them everyday. dont waste your money at all at Harbor Freight. Buy Starret, Empire is decent, or Stabila. I m not sure if Stabila makes dial indacators, but they do make very nice tools. The quality of your tools, especially precision tools defines the quality of the work. To me, the price of a tool is irrelevant, cause I do many jobs, that must be done right the first time, with no down time.

Found my taco FSM, you think i can follow it but use the specs for the mini. I'll try that link and see if i can get the specs from it.

I dont know if they are the same.
In a job like this, you need to be sure about the specs. speculation is not acceptable. I will get you the specs.

I'm not real comp literate, when i get ready and have more questions can i just find this thread and reply to it again to get in touch with you, does it tell you when I reply to you?

Yeah. I check this forum almost every day. I have had all my PC's crash. I have an apple that refuses to die. One PC is limping, but I almost always have internet.
Or you can call me if you need a answer right away. I wont answer during work. but i check it during the day, and I can call back on a break. 503 933 4919. My name is Aaron

I never took the locking tabs off the side nuts so each side is still together, I will make sure I keep them together and marked for each side. I took the caps off and kept each side as a unit

Good job. the first step in this is asking questions and not touching it till you are 100% sure.

I really appreciate all your help

you are welcome!

owndog · 08-15-08, 08:36 PM

Wish i would have found this forum a couple months ago ! I to had a bad pinion bearing , so took it all apart while waiting for my friend with the rite tools and experience to show up . Ya that dude never showed , so i did it my self - ha , not good ! Its been about a thousand miles still holding up , but makes not good sounds in top gear on the high way when theres no stress on it . Ya chatters way bad all the way up threw the drive train . So i'm swapping theard members before it blows , cant wait to see the damage i've done . Next time i'll read up or bring it to a pro !!!

chesshircat · 08-18-08, 01:55 PM

Yeah, i knew this wasn't a "wing it" type project and have always wanted to learn how to set one up. I'm still tracking down all the tools and info. I think I'll be alright. gearinstalls.com has a bunch of great info as well as the knowledge on this site

WristPin · 08-18-08, 05:08 PM

I just checked out Zuk's site. WOW. Hes got lots of good writeups.

chesshircat · 08-28-08, 03:30 PM

Wristy, I'll probably be bugging you again soon. Have my 3rd jiged up on and engine stand, 0-60 in lb wrench, fabbed up a bar to hold the flange while tightening the nut and to turn the ring adjusters, a pipe to press my pinion bearing back on and a dial indicator. Anything else you can think of. Ever find the specs for the pinion preload, cap torques and backlash?

Pinion preload 14 in/lbs?
Backlash .006?
Cap Bolts 75 ft/lbs?
Ring adjusters 75-150 ft/lbs?

Try to get my wear patern centered on both drive and coast side?

thanks
Brett

WristPin · 08-29-08, 03:02 AM

the following specs are for a V6 third. which has a 4 pinion carrier. ( four pinion means four spider gears live there.) A 4CYL third uses a two pinion carrier. THESE SPECS ONLY APPLY TO THE V6

assemble the pinion. like I said earlier, its best to completely assemble it, rather than temporarily assemble it like the FSM says. set the pinion bearing preload to
8.7 to 13.9 inch lbs for a NEW bearing.
4.3 to 6.9 inch lbs for a USED bearing.

when initially crushing the sleeve, it will take a LOT of torque. then once it crushes, less torque is required to set the preload.

at this point it is best to get a low inch pound spec, like 2.0 inch pounds on a used bearing. for the sake of making it easier when setting the backlash. just so long as the pinion is not moving in and out.

cook the new ring at 220 F in the oven so it expands real good. slap it on the carrier. coat the bolts in gear oil. or if your kit comes with lock tite use that. FSM designates oil. make sure you put the lock tabs with the bolts.

once it cools, torque it to 71 foot lbs, in a UNIFORM pattern.

put the carrier in the case. install the adjusting nuts. make sure they are threaded properly.

put on the caps. align it with the matchmarks/ install exactly the way they came off. torque all for to 58 foot pounds. then loosen them so they can be turned by hand.

tighten the adjusting nut on the ring side. ( side with all those bolts) so the back lash is about 0.008"

while turning the ring gear, fully tighten the adjusting nut on the drive side. once the bearings settle, loosen it.

set the dial indicator on the ring gear side, so it contacts the adjusting nut. now you will adjust for zero preload. tighten the drive adjuster nut untill the pointer on the dial begins to move.

stop. hammer time. you just set the ZERO PRELOAD.

look at the nut. tighten it one and one half nothches from the ZERO LOAD position. use one lines under the cap for reference.

using a dial indicator set the backlash.
spec for 4CYL and V6 is the same:
0.0051" to 0.0071"

set the dial indicator so the needle had movement on both ways. ( not at the end of its travel) finding the correct spot will take a few attempts. I. have found the sweet spot in the apex of the ring, about 3/16" from the heel.

the back lash is adjusted by turning the adjusting nut left and right in equal amounts. For example loosen the left nut one notch and tighten the right nut one notch. This retains the ZERO preload.

once the backlash is set, check the pattern with prussian blue. any ring set should have that in it. that site jerod linked is an awesome site. there are many good pics of what the pattern should look like.
recheck the backlash again.

torque the cap bolts to 58 ft-lbs.

recheck backlash.

measure total preload with your socket on pinion nut. spec is 3.5 inch pounds to 5.2 inch pounds.

at this point the FSM describes full assembling the crush sleeve oil slinger and new seal. but to save you from using the SST to get the rear bearing out, at this point, is why i had you install all of this first.

use a new nut. they are cheap from the dealer. well, realitivley cheap. coat it with grease.

now it is time to make the final torque on the crush sleeve.

initial torque of the nut should be 145 foot pound. but do not exceed 253 ft-lbs.

check pinion bearing preload. remember what it is?
8.7 to 13.9 inch pound for a new bearing.
4.3 to 6.9 inch pounds

if it is under, like it should be, make small torque adjustments then recheck.

I have here in my notes for a 4CYL preload, the spec is 7.9 to 11.3 inch pounds. I was able to achieve 11.3 inch pounds after I applied 94 ft pounds to the nut.

now check the vertical run out. put the needle of the dial indicator on the flat side of the flange. as you turn it read the dial. max for both 4Cyl and V6 is 0.0039" you should not have any problem seeing this spec.

stake the new pinion nut.

install the adjusting nut locks. torque to 9 ft pounds.

DONE.

Ok, for my trick to torque the nuts on the ring gear to the carrier.

get the tire, put it out side down, flat on the ground.
put the axle in the holes.

put the carrier in the axle.

get the other axle. put it in the carrier. have a buddy use a crowbar between the lug studs to hold it so you can torque it.

or if his kung fu is real good, use the other tire.

WristPin · 08-30-08, 01:59 AM

damn thats a long read.
well its quicker to read it than to do it. so get used to that!

You should try and download the FSM. any year will work. till 95 trucks. has lots of pretty pictures you can color.

chesshircat · 08-30-08, 06:17 AM

Apex...thats a big word for a greasy mechanic, you must have someone proof this stuff for you

chesshircat · 08-30-08, 06:51 PM

I spent all day on this thing. I set and reset, torqued and retorqed, and did it again. All my numbers came up great. I understood it all. No problem finding zero or anything. My wear pattern looked great.

Then it went to poo poo. I wrung the flange nut off. I did something way wrong. I used a new nut, greased the threads. I'll explane exactly what i did so you can school me. 1st, to get the outer pinion bearing on i used my press. I used the slow handle. A little at a time, kept checking to see when I just got to noplay in the pinion. It had 0 preload. When I pressed it, i placed the third on the press and used a socket to hold the pinion up. I used a socket that should have let the pinion fall down about 1/32, I figured this would keep me from over pressing the outer bearing into the crush ring. I don't think i pressed it too far...It had zero preload. I put my nut on and I figured that since the lowest torgue range on the nut was 145 ft lbs, If I set the wrench at 145 it would take at least that to crush the ring. On Zuk's site he used about a 4ft bar, so i figured my torque wrench would be a good place to start. After I got 145 the pinion was way too tight so I backed the nut off. Then I thought maybe the bearings were pressing on the crush wring but the outer wasn't seated yet. So I went to a 2ft bar and started turning waiting to feel the ring crush. 2nd guessed myself, backed it off, then 2nd guessed again, and hit it again. Finally the crush i felt was the threads in the nut. Am I suppose to actually feel the ring crush? I never used anythin more than a torque wrench or a 2 ft bar and could turn the nut. Where did i screw up? When I pulled it all apart I definately crushed the ring, It was crushed about as much as the one that caused the original prob. Could I have damaged the bearings? THe upside is I feel totally confident I did everything right until the flange nut, won't take me long to set it back up once I get the new nut and ring...kinda enjoyed it

WristPin · 08-30-08, 06:57 PM

but your threads on the pinion are good right?

i have stripped the threads on just the nut a time or too and after inspecting the bearings they were fine.
which sucks cause, to inspect both bearings you gotta tear it all down.

if you can manage to get the front bearing out, that will give you peace of mind that you checked. you should check them. even though the chances are good they are fine.

its easy to do right, this whole job is, but its even easier to screw up.

KLF · 08-30-08, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WristPin

Ok, for my trick to torque the nuts on the ring gear to the carrier.

get the tire, put it out side down, flat on the ground.
put the axle in the holes.

put the carrier in the axle.

get the other axle. put it in the carrier. have a buddy use a crowbar between the lug studs to hold it so you can torque it.

or if his kung fu is real good, use the other tire.

Damn, Wristy... all those over-priced SnapOn tools you got, and you don't have a decent vise on a bench to stick the carrier in? You sure are doing this the hard way...

WristPin · 08-30-08, 10:43 PM

the funny part is i havent got a bench!

well since i moved to the wasteland of oregon

chesshircat · 08-31-08, 06:18 AM

threads are fine, the bearings look fine, I tore everything back down. I bet I went too far pressing the outer pinion bearing on so when i went to get my preload i was already too far. You got a trick to put that bearing on and know when you just get to the sleeve? I hate to just beat on the flange. Why don't you fab me up one of those SST tools and send it over here

by the way after trying latex paint in differrent stages of drying, wax, crayons, rtv sealer it was the sludge at the bottom of a 30 yr old can of barn enamel that worked as a substitute for prussian blue

KLF · 08-31-08, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WristPin

the funny part is i havent got a bench!

Keep an eye out in yardsales and flea markets for a Black & Decker Workmate. I have two of them and really like them. Here's my ghetto-fabbed diff stand when I do setups:

WristPin · 08-31-08, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesshircat

threads are fine, the bearings look fine, I tore everything back down. I bet I went too far pressing the outer pinion bearing on so when i went to get my preload i was already too far. You got a trick to put that bearing on and know when you just get to the sleeve? I hate to just beat on the flange. Why don't you fab me up one of those SST tools and send it over here

by the way after trying latex paint in differrent stages of drying, wax, crayons, rtv sealer it was the sludge at the bottom of a 30 yr old can of barn enamel that worked as a substitute for prussian blue

you just gotta feel for it. maybe there is a trick, I dont know. Havent really thought about it. I just feel for it. Maybe ZUK has a trick.

If I was at my shop, I would be able to fab all kinds of stuff. but instead I am stranded with a bent axle tube and no way to fix it, or put the axle back in, located in the middle of a wasteland town far away from my shop.

you are a clever guy, finding somthing to show the pattern! that made me chuckle.

WristPin · 08-31-08, 12:22 PM

KLF, that set up is a damn good way setting it up.

I could never see how to hold the ring in a vice with out hurting it, while torquing the ring bolts. Hence my previously described method.

chesshircat · 08-31-08, 01:22 PM

FIND something as long as your axle tube like a 6x6, put jack stands at either end and put your whole housing on the stands. run chains aound all 3 at the stands, and where you don't want to straighten. Use a bottle jack between the 6x6 and tube to straighten it out

chesshircat · 09-08-08, 05:37 PM

I set it up over the weekend. Drove it about 60 mls with no noise or vibration. I'm pretty sure I did everything right, what should I watch for if I did something wrong?

ringpinion.biz · 09-08-08, 06:14 PM

You need to make sure you have all of the correct parts in the correct locations. If the crush sleeve is difficult to crush (as in stripping threads) You should collapse it in a press, this is easy to do. Just assemble as if you were going to use the nut (and DO NOT GREASE the pinion nut threads, these should be loctite'd). Put the third flange down on the plates of the press and press down on the pinion. Collapse the sleeve, but leave just a little bit of play to fine tune either by hand or with a good impact gun. Once you have preload set, knock the pinion on each end with a drift in order to make sure your races are fully seated, then recheck. By checking preload, I mean with an inch/lb torque wrench, beam or dial style only (no clicker). The dial ones are about $3-400 from snapon, mac, etc. We offer a beam style one for $74 that works really well for anyone but the guy who does 10 diffs a day.

chesshircat · 09-08-08, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ringpinion.biz

You need to make sure you have all of the correct parts in the correct locations. If the crush sleeve is difficult to crush (as in stripping threads) You should collapse it in a press, this is easy to do. Just assemble as if you were going to use the nut (and DO NOT GREASE the pinion nut threads, these should be loctite'd). Put the third flange down on the plates of the press and press down on the pinion. Collapse the sleeve, but leave just a little bit of play to fine tune either by hand or with a good impact gun. Once you have preload set, knock the pinion on each end with a drift in order to make sure your races are fully seated, then recheck. By checking preload, I mean with an inch/lb torque wrench, beam or dial style only (no clicker). The dial ones are about $3-400 from snapon, mac, etc. We offer a beam style one for $74 that works really well for anyone but the guy who does 10 diffs a day.

Thanks for the info, I've already installed it. I ruined the 1st sleeve b/c i used my press and didn't realize I had crushed the sleeve, so I got on it too hard and put too much preload on the pinion. Got a new sleeve and used the press again and went a very little at a time until i got the correct preload. I use a beam type torque wrench. I spent a lot of time checking and rechecking since this was my 1st third rebuild. I think I'm good. Just wanted to know if there is anything to look for If I did something wrong, like noises or vibrations or anything. It is very quiet and no vibrations.

WristPin · 09-08-08, 11:24 PM

noises, like whines, clunks. vibration at speeds. insane heat.

make sure to baby it for 500 miles. then drop the fluid and replace, then its off to Moab!