2LTE Spill Control Valve

[maximus]

Hi all,

I've got a 1991 2.4 LTD (2L-TE) Hilux Surf. I have another thread going on this topic, but it started out as something completely different, so I thought I'd start a new thread to deal with just this issue.

I've found that the engine is impossible to start below a certain temperature and have narrowed it down to a part on the fuel pump which I think is called the "spill control valve". There is no smoke or ignition at all.

From what I gather, this part is a solenoid that determines how much fuel the injectors receive, depending on fuel pressure. I've found that if I hold a hair dryer to it for a few minutes, the truck will start up immediately, with no problems at all. So, my theory is that there is a buildup of varnish or congealed diesel which makes the solenoid stick. When warmed slightly, it has the power to open the valve properly.

In any event, I'm now looking at replacing this part and was wondering if anyone knows:

a) Can it be removed from the fuel pump?
b) If so, how?
c) Can it be serviced (i.e. cleaned)?
d) How does it work?

I appreciate your thoughts.

For reference, a picture of what I think is the offending part is attached (not my pump, this one is a pic from the internet).

Cheers,
Max

[DanS HJ-45]

Not that it helps, but at least this'll bump it to the top!

But I was looking at my IP today and saw that same valve. And all I could think was "man does that look like a PITA to get off." I guess at least with a RHD vehicle you don't have to fight with a jungle of steering stuff....

Dan

[maximus]

Hey, thanks Dan.

I'm actually cheating on everyone here and have also posted my question to the Aussi site. People there have advised that you can only remove the valve if you also remove the entire pump. I've heard that you need to recalibrate the pump thereafter, too.

So, what I've decided to do is to run some of the most potent (read: expensive) injector / fuel system cleaner I could find. I've also decided to run it at a very high concentration.

Yesterday, Sunday, I siphoned off some of the fuel in my tank so that there was about 1/3 to 1/2 tank left (approx 20-30 liters). Then I dumped in an entire bottle of Kleen Flo's "Diesel TKO" which they say treats up to 120 or 140 liters or so.

I only had the opportunity to drive it about 15 minutes or so and then had to go get some work done. At any rate, my dad started it this morning and it fired up immediately. He didn't let it warm up and shut it off immediately. He then repeated this a few times over the course of the day and it continued to fire up again and again. It was around 0 deg C all day... I'm hopeful that this may have remedied the problem, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much.

I'll keep you all posted and let you know what I discover (even if it's as boring as "this product fixed it").

Cheers,
Max

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

You cheating bastard! Hehe No worries! That would be slick if the "product" fixed it.

[DanS HJ-45]

That would be amazing if one of those wonder fluids actually worked.

Definitely keep us posted. If it worked, then I'll probably run some through mine just to help keep it clean (although I suspect the BioDiesel does a fantastic job of that already).

Dan

[maximus]

Hello, hello...

So I ran the TKO Diesel through the engine at a very concentrated level, but it didn't fix my problem. I will say that the truck smokes notably less when accelerating and seems to run somewhat more smoothly. The smoother running may be my imagination, but I'm sure of the decrease in smoke- now there is virtually no smoke at all, except when the engine is quite cold.

I had another thought about the problem, though... I might be wrong that it's the spill control valve that is the issue. It may actually be a sensor on the side of the pump that controls the spill valve. I've noticed that if I aim my wife's trusty hair dryer at the side of the pump (where most of the electrical connections are) it starts up pretty quickly...

Does anyone know if there is a sensor on that side? If so, does it somehow activate the spill valve? I read somewhere about an RPM sensor and a crank angle position sensor. I suspect that the RPM sensor's name gives away its function. From what I've read, I believe the crank angle position sensor allows the pump to run if the engine is turning over, and prevents it from running if it's not.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Thank you!

--Max

[DanS HJ-45]

I'd buy the sensor over the valve idea. The valve sure seems pretty overbuilt for what it's used for, whereas a sensor can pretty easily get messed up...

I was looking at mine and can't figure out which sensor it is, but you're right: there are quite a few in that exact area. Does the EPC show the location a spill control sensor or anything?

Dan

[maximus]

Dan,

I did have a code "6" a while ago, which I've learned is a "crank angle pulse" or "speed sensor" fault. I haven't checked the fault codes in a while, so I'll do that tomorrow.

Ah, the joys of having some time off of work to play with my toys!

Cheers,
Max

[maximus]

OK, nothing positive to report but I suppose even reporting failures is beneficial to the collective... comrade.

Seriously, I've now narrowed it down to the spill control valve for sure. If that valve is too cold it malfunctions and won't start. If it's warmed up with a hair dryer, it will start. I'm pretty sure the issue is mechanical... at any rate, I need to replace this part to get the truck working reliably.

So, does anyone have any idea if you can replace the spill control valve. It looks like you might be able to remove it from the fuel pump (i.e. unscrew it) but I don't have a replacement part and don't want to make it worse for the time being.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd appreciate hearing from you. As always, I'll continue to broadcast my misadventures with this truck... the really agonizing thing is that it runs so nicely when it runs, dammit!

Anyway, as always, thanks for your thoughts.

--Max

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

Max! Welcome back, sorry to hear there's no real progress... Have you tried asking the guys over and toyotadiesel.com?

[maximus]

Jerod,

I've posted there and am waiting... will let you know.

[maximus]

I've now figured out that the spill control valve is working fine and not "sticking" in the cold as previously thought. It turns out that when cold, it is not getting any power when attempting to start. When warm enough, it does get power...

Regardless of temperature, there is a measurable "blip" on the voltmeter going to the spill valve when you turn the key from "off" to "on". What I mean is, there is a very short pulse. However, when cold, there is no power going to the valve when cranking. When warmer, I measure about 9V when cranking.

The deciding factor must be something on/near the fuel pump since that is where I am directing the heat... the rest of the engine is cold and if I heat that area up with a space heater/hair dryer for 5 minutes or so I get power and the truck will start.

I don't know much about how the spill control circuit functions and what in that area might be temperature-dependent. I suspect that one of the resistors on the side of the pump may be faulty such that it has too low of a resistance (or too high, but I think resistance decreases with temperature) when cold...

Does anyone know anything about these resistors? Any other ideas?

For those of you who, like me, visit the "other" toyota diesel/hilux/landcruiser sites, I'm posting there too in the hope of getting some answers, so sorry for the repetition.

Max

[maximus]

OK,

I've figured it out, I think... I'm fairly certain it's the RPM sensor.

When cold, there is no continuity between its two terminals. When warm, there is resistance of about 90 Ohms.

I was able to measure the difference twice yesterday...

I even connected the terminals to a multimeter, and then put the heater to it, In about 4-5 minutes, the meter suddenly jumped from no continuity to the 90-100 Ohms (if I'm reading it correctly) resistance. When I reconnected the RPM sensor, the engine would then start with no difficulty and I was able to measure the 9V or so going to the spill control valve.

Looks like the RPM sensor needs to be replaced. To confirm that, though I think I'm going to remove it and attempt to recreate my little experiment.

Anyone know how much this sensor costs? I think I read somewhere that it's around $500 Australian. Maybe I can get a used one...

Cheers,
Max

[Prado-kirk]

I have been following along with your posts and I feel your pain.
I have the same prolem as you descibe with my Prado 2lte. It started when a hose clamp blew and i t spewed alover those sensers on thatside.If it left out overnight and cools down between 3 C degrees and 10C it will stall. I get this little surge then stalls about 4 mins after it starts. I have to wait another 4 mins then it starts perfectly. Then i'm good for the day starting any time in an instant.
I had it in th shop and they pulled a 6 code 3 times over 3 days.
6 code =pump speed sensor
I just got it back with the recomondation to get a new pump.
Oh joy then I need to get a new timing belt and whatever else they find on the way to getting that pump swapped. Thats a heap of shop time on top of $$$ parts.
The kicker is that they would be able to do it anyways.

Could you give a description or a pict as to which connector you looked at? I would be good to network on this.

Thanks in advance
Kirk

[maximus]

Kirk,

Here is a picture of the connector on the pump speed sensor. This is viewed from the top of the pump down:



As mentioned, I just measured the resistance between the two terminals on the connector. There is no continuity below about 0 deg. Celsius. It makes me wonder if that's the same issue you're having, but it's odd that you only have the problem between 3 and 10 deg. C. Who knows how those sensors work, though.

If it is the sensor (i.e. you can confirm that it has no continuity at the temperatures you are having trouble) then you may well be able to just replace it without having to remove the pump. That is what I intend to do, as a good samaritan from Australia is sending me his old sensor. However, I'm also getting a quote from a local guy here for the cost of a new one. I'll let you know when I find out what that cost is.

If you do decide to remove and replace the pump, you may be able to save a lot of $$ by doing it yourself. I would order it from Australia - Castle Hill Toyota. I've been in touch with a gentleman there named James Sloane. If I recall correctly, it worked out to about $350 CDN with shipping at the time (a week or two ago).

Even if you can confirm that it's the pump speed sensor, you may want to order the pump, take out the new sensor and replace the faulty one with it since this will be a lot easier than removing and replacing the entire pump.

I'm located in the Okanagan in British Columbia- if you're nearby and want some help let me know. I can't say that I'm *that* mechanically inclined, but I have played around with the 2L-TE engine a fair bit due now to my own woes.

Cheers,
Max

[Prado-kirk]

Thanks Maximus,
The pict is good and clear. I will put a ohm meter on that today. I 've found some info that may help. It's a pdf so I can't attach it to this forum. If you give me a E-mail I can forward you what I've got on this engine. I have an exploded diagram of this fuel pump as well as diagram of the sensor locations.
I live in Downtown Van so we will have to rely on this forum to network.
Feel free to contact me at :
kchapman808@hotmail.com

[2ndGenToyotaFan]

Kirk, if the PDF is online, could you post a link to it so others might be helped out? Thanks!

[Prado-kirk]

Master Portal - forums.bauchan.org/Toyota Workshop & Repair Manuals

I found tons of stuff for thees vehicles here.

kirk

[maximus]

Kirk,

Thanks for the link. I'm familiar with those .pdfs. The only problem is that there isn't one for the 2L-TE engine, but the 2L-T manual is still useful for some of the other stuff that's not related to the EFI.

I've also got a couple of .jpg images of the 2L-TE fuel pump which I'm in the process of scaling down so that I can post them. They show the part numbers but otherwise they are in Japanese.

I'll see what I can do about putting those up.

Let me know what you figure out about your truck once you've connected the multimeter to it. I wonder if it's the same problem and if the pump speed sensor is susceptible to temperature problems.

Cheers,
Max

[Prado-kirk]

Maximus

I know that there are not too many their 2L-TE specific but there is some overlap. Stuff like how to test the VSV and start relays etc is.

Toyota recreates a lot of the same sys in different vehicle models.

I test out your theory today. You've resolved the source of the problem.

This morning my Prado wouldn't start. The out door temp was 2 degrees. I did the same routine. I tried to doulble up the glow time.Nothing.

I took a ohm reading on pump speed sensor and it was open.(no continuity)

I put a 100 ohm resister in place of the sensor.Wouldn't start.

I jumped out that lead directly. Wouldn't start.

I had to pour hot water(only option) carefully aound that sensor. I put my meter on it and it started open closed at around 4000 ohms. As the heat sank into the pump the resistance rapidly fell off. In a few seconds it got to 100 ohms.

I quickly replaced the lead to the sensor and started it.Right away!!!

THANKS THANKS THANKS!!!!

I've been missing work,stranded and leaning under a hood for at least 40 hrs in this weather since beginning of Dec!!!

I knew it was temperture related and it is directly under the rad hose that lost its clamp.

My idea ...A- get a 12 volt heat gun or the like.

B-test out wiring a 2 pole momentary switch with
a variable resister in an atempt to bypass the fault
C- find out if /how to replace this sensor

Do you know how/ if you can replace this? You have one coming I
think.

Many thanks again,
Kirk

[Prado-kirk]

Try this link for 2L-TD ,3-0 LTD, KZN-185 info and more related


Surf Maintenance


Kirk

[maximus]

Kirk,

Great news, you've located your problem! Indeed, I've got a sensor coming one of these days from Australia and will let you know what happens when it gets here and I replace it. I have carefully taken the top of the pump off and had a look at the sensor currently in there and it looks like it can be removed. It will be a bit of a tight squeeze, and I'll have to be careful not to damage the top seals (and not to get any dirt in the pump!) but I think it can be done. I'm also saying this because the gent who is sending me his old sensor from Australia has it kicking around from when when they reconditioned his pump and replaced it-- hence it can be removed/replaced. He said it worked when they removed it, but they replaced it as part of an "overhaul" / reconditioning.

I don't think that trying to bypass the sensor somehow will work. As I understand it, the sensor sends out a pulse signal which it gets from the pump rotors (inside of the pump anyway) turning over while you crank the engine. This signal goes to the ECU which in turn sends out a signal to the spill control valve, which then permits the pump to send out the right amount of fuel at the right pressure to the injectors. So, if you bypassed the sensor somehow to just get a certain amount of resistance you wouldn't get whatever pulse / signal the sensor is supposed to send and you wouldn't get the spill control valve working and therefore no fuel (or too little or without sufficient pressure).

I think that's likely what happens at the colder temperatures-- somehow the sensor is faulty and simply doesn't work (has no continuity) at those temperatures. The ECU "thinks" there is no signal and that the pump isn't operating so it keeps the spill control valve open preventing the proper flow of fuel to the injectors. I've actually noticed (before figuring out the issue with the sensor but after many, many hours of trying other things) that if you crack a line at the injector by loosening a box nut, you do get fuel coming out of there while turning over the engine. It just dribbles out though, which originally led me to thinking that the spill control valve was stuck or gunked up.

Anyway, as I may have mentioned, I've also got the dealer I purchased the truck from here working on finding the sensor and on getting a price. I'll let you know what/if I hear anything from him.

I've also thought about the 12V hairdryer but I don't think they really exist as a hair dryer uses around 800 to 1500 watts or so and would quickly drain your battery. If you do find anything like that, though, please let me know!

Thanks for the link. That's actually the Aussie site where I connected with the gentleman who's sending me his old sensor (on the forum).

Here's the link, FYI:
Toyota 4WD Surf Owners :: View topic - Spill Control Valve


Cheers,
Max